Jump to content

Recommended Posts

1. Babs Seed Okay first off, her name annoys me. "Babs" is short for "Barbara."

I'm sure the writers went with Babs Seed because Babs rhymed with the word bad. :P

2. The CMCs being so weak-kneed Okay, the CMCs... have shown time and again that they have backbones. Who was it that first tried talking to Zecora? Oh yeah, Apple Bloom. Who was it who gave their all to put on a stage show in front of ADULTS? Oh yeah, the entire threesome. Yeah, Apple Bloom was embarrassed about her granny in that one episode, but embarrassing relatives is a thing that happens even to adults, so that gets a pass. The point is, it felt like their personalities were bent over backwards to make them seem hurt by the bullying, when that is patently out-of-character for all three of them.

Eh, I think it wouldn't be OOC for the CMCs to be hurt by bullying and to be afraid to tell an adult. You do know that in many instances of real bullying, bullies actually make it worse for victims for snitching if the adults don't adequately lay down the law? As far as Abby and Scoots were concerned, there was no guarantee that Applejack would do anything about it (recall AJ's obliviousness back in Call of the Cutie).

3. Political Correctness Warning! And this is the big problem. MLP was just not equipped to handle a bullying story without being all annoyingly PC. So naturally, it tries to pull the "oh, the bully is actually someone who is bullied herself," and tries to make Barbara Seed all sympathetic. No. If she's been bullied, then she should know better than to pass it on, and deserves punishment all the more for knowing full well what she was subjecting others to. This idea that we should all develop Stockholm Syndrome for our tormentors is one reason bullying stories simply should not be told... at least as long as the media is the way it is now.

1. Where does Stockholm Syndrome enter into this? I wouldn't call trying to make an antagonist character sympathetic an example of captive-bonding.

2. And I also have no problem with making Babs sympathetic, since it's now clear that Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon will never receive this treatment from the writers. This show doesn't need another punching bag character to annoy the CMCs.

4. Political Correctness Warning Part Two! On top of that, the show goes with the tired moral that the proper response to bullying is to tell somebody--a parent or other authority figure. Did none of the writer's go through high school? Or did the moral guardians stand there with guns to their heads and force them to teach kids to do the thing that only ensures they will never stop being professional victims for as long as they live? Because that's really what dependency on authority will do to you in the long run--make you weak. Sorry, but Apple Bloom and Scootaloo had the right idea when they decided revenge was better.

Part of the reason that "tell someone" is such a popular message concerning these types of stories is that many bullied children actually do believe that nobody out there gives a hoot about them. If vicious enough, bullying can make you feel isolated beyond all comprehension. Humans are naturally social creatures, and so letting kids feel like they're all alone can incredibly damage their overall psyches. Sometimes, telling these souls to "toughen up" and "fight back" either not work at all or make things even worse.

PS: On that note, Putting Your Hoof Down already did a good-enough job of teaching the values of responsible-assertiveness so that others wouldn't push you around.

Like, I knew this guy who would come to a Skype group I was in and intentionally try to start fights. He would also pretend in the background to be everyone's friend so he could learn things about them, then spread it to others in private to create dissent and cause more dramas. When I figured out his game, I blocked him and then kickbanned him from the Skype chat, not even asking anyone else if it was okay. This same guy contacted me weeks ago and actually thanked me for doing this, and now he's genuinely become a much better person as a result. If I had followed this episode's advice, the guy would still be a pain and just getting worse and worse all the time.

You have the freedom to decide who you interact with; children in school..... don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sure the writers went with Babs Seed because Babs rhymed with the word bad. :razz:

I'm aware of why she was named that, but it.... just feels like its not even a pony name.

Eh, I think it wouldn't be OOC for the CMCs to be hurt by bullying

And yet not afraid to perform in front of crowds or run out in dark, scary woods looking for lost chickens. That's the part that seems off to me.

1. Where does Stockholm Syndrome enter into this? I wouldn't call trying to make an antagonist character sympathetic an example of captive-bonding.

2. And I also have no problem with making Babs sympathetic, since it's now clear that Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon will never receive this treatment from the writers. This show doesn't need another punching bag character to annoy the CMCs.

That's all fine, but "this bully should be pitied because they went through some bad stuff back home" does not make their actions okay or make them particularly likable or sympathetic. I wouldn't let a person rob me at gunpoint just because they got screwed by the IRS, so why would I let someone bully me just because they're victims elsewhere?

Part of the reason that "tell someone" is such a popular message concerning these types of stories is that many bullied children actually do believe that nobody out there gives a hoot about them.

And then you actually tell someone, and they don't do anything or otherwise show they actually DON'T give a hoot...

That's the thing. If a cartoon is gonna be educational (and that's essentially what all the moral messages are for), it should teach things that can actually be put into practice, with a positive benefit. Granted, cartoons have never actually been great about that, but then MLP has rarely ever dealt with real-life concerns like bullying.

You have the freedom to decide who you interact with; children in school..... don't.

Which is another reason learning to be a scrapper is better than learning how to be dependent on a higher-up who might not give a clop about you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nitpick: technically, I wouldn't consider that stunt the CMCs played on Babs as an example of bullying. That was more like pulling a humiliating prank, which didn't require any intimidation on the CMCs part.

That actually fits bullying rather well.:P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the way the episode is for two reasons

1. Having the prank work and then having the lesson being that bullying is bad gives a mixed message. Its saying "We did this thing that is bad, but don't do it."

2. The CMC showed that they are legitimatly good people, which is what showed Babs the error of her ways. They were willing to put themselves at risk to save somebody who was mean to them. Humiliating Babs reinforces that she should be a bully to protect herself. Helping her when she didn't deserve it shows her that there is a reason she should reach out and not be afraid

Fair point.

Something for the Doctor Who fans:

161624__safe_doctor-whooves_spoiler-s03_time-turner_doctor-who_spoiler-s03e04_reference_pear.jpg

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

this episode was awesome,

i mean the music, the animation, adorable CMCs and a gold sweetie belle! i mean that song! its gonna be stuck in my head longer than winter wrap up!

i give it a 5/5 imo, it was a great episode, and i thought scootaloo was going to scream a curse word when the cmcs lost their tree house, just brilliiant.

oh and in the movie theater, it didnt look like derpy was with the doctor, that ponies eyes wernt derped and was a slight pink colour, i could be wrong tho.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That actually fits bullying rather well. :razz:

IMO, bullying requires the bully to actively intimidate the victim into submission. Pranks can constitute bullying activity, but they have to be sustained over a substantial period of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm aware of why she was named that, but it.... just feels like its not even a pony name.

And yet not afraid to perform in front of crowds or run out in dark, scary woods looking for lost chickens. That's the part that seems off to me.

That's all fine, but "this bully should be pitied because they went through some bad stuff back home" does not make their actions okay or make them particularly likable or sympathetic. I wouldn't let a person rob me at gunpoint just because they got screwed by the IRS, so why would I let someone bully me just because they're victims elsewhere?

And then you actually tell someone, and they don't do anything or otherwise show they actually DON'T give a hoot...

That's the thing. If a cartoon is gonna be educational (and that's essentially what all the moral messages are for), it should teach things that can actually be put into practice, with a positive benefit. Granted, cartoons have never actually been great about that, but then MLP has rarely ever dealt with real-life concerns like bullying.

Which is another reason learning to be a scrapper is better than learning how to be dependent on a higher-up who might not give a clop about you.

So your belief is that the moral of the story should have been, "Hey, if you're being bullied, beat the bully/get your revenge!".

I have a feeling you do not have kids. As a father and uncle, I want their first response to be to go to authority and report the bullying. Violence and vengeance may satiate some primal desire, but such actions make you no better than the bully unless it is the last resort. If the moral of the episode had been that you should take matters in your own hand and take care of the bully yourself, then when my niece comes over later so her mum can do errands, she'd be watching old episodes and would never see this one.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO, bullying requires the bully to actively intimidate the victim into submission. Pranks can constitute bullying activity, but they have to be sustained over a substantial period of time.

Bullying is bullying. Whether it's a single act or a series of them, it's bullying. If you discovered your niece/daughter doing something like that, you'd make her stop and if you're responsible, talk to her about bullying. Bullying is not this monolithic evil structure in which the bully is always seeking total complete mental domination of his/her victims at all times. That's movie bullying. That's Carrie level bullying. That is rarely the case in real life.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So your belief is that the moral of the story should have been, "Hey, if you're being bullied, beat the bully/get your revenge!".

I have a feeling you do not have kids. As a father and uncle, I want their first response to be to go to authority and report the bullying. Violence and vengeance may satiate some primal desire, but such actions make you no better than the bully unless it is the last resort. If the moral of the episode had been that you should take matters in your own hand and take care of the bully yourself, then when my niece comes over later so her mum can do errands, she'd be watching old episodes and would never see this one.

Let me ask you this:

What do your kids do if they're being harrassed... and you're in the hospital? Or away on business? Or dead? Who do they turn to? Is there somebody who cares as much as you do? What if there isn't?

I think you're misinterpreting me. I'm not saying we should all be brutish barbarians, but teaching kids to always be dependent on others is just teaching them to be weak. Often in life, you have to be able to stand on your own two feet (or four hooves, I guess?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bullying is not this monolithic evil structure in which the bully is always seeking total complete mental domination of his/her victims at all times. That's movie bullying. That's Carrie level bullying. That is rarely the case in real life.

I apologize for my unspecific word choices, but I think bullying in all its forms involves activities meant to assert the bully as the top-cat while "teaching" the victim his or her lowly place. The level of viciousness involved in bullying incidents can widely vary to be sure, but I just don't think what the CMCs did to retaliate against Babs was enough to cross the line into bullying. After all, we don't normally call kids who "fight back" against their tormentors bullies, do we?

That said, we're basically arguing over semantics. I won't bother debating this point further. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me ask you this:

What do your kids do if they're being harrassed... and you're in the hospital? Or away on business? Or dead? Who do they turn to? Is there somebody who cares as much as you do? What if there isn't?

I think you're misinterpreting me. I'm not saying we should all be brutish barbarians, but teaching kids to always be dependent on others is just teaching them to be weak. Often in life, you have to be able to stand on your own two feet (or four hooves, I guess?)

If they're being harassed(or bullies), there is always a solution. Teachers, police(if we're talking actual harassment), etc. There are a hundred avenues of dealing with a bully or someone who is harassing you that are superior to being violent or going down to their level. You seem to believe that being able to stand on your own means you have to actively shun support networks. That is why bullying has gotten to be such a tipping point in society. Too many tell kids to shun support networks and the avenues open to them and tell them they need to stand up for themselves. Except if the bully isn't a wallflower at his/her core or there are more bullies against the child than not, this leads to further harm. Now the victim can't stand up for him/herself and has been taught to be against telling authorities- tattling, as it were. This leads to a spiral; where the child becomes an eternal victim and sinks into depression. Then the bullying becomes almost secondary to the self-harm the child inflicts on his or herself. Then it is at this stage that something really bad happens. There is a reason why school tragedies that reach national level attention always involve a victim of bullying and not the bully.

And it all could have been avoided if we didn't teach kids that going to a support network makes them weak or dependent on it and we didn't live in a society that mocks those who are less strong than they, even if it is hidden behind the veil of self-reliance. Realize that even as an adult, you rely on the authorities at large to enforce codes of behavior and conduct. They're called police. Unless you're saying we shouldn't call the police as adults when a crime has been committed, I don't see how one can argue that going to an authority figure over bullying makes a child weak and dependent.

People need to realize what bullying is before it can be stopped. Bullies aren't made in labs to torment their victims. Bullies don't wake up in the morning and say, "Today I'm going to make some loser's life miserable!". Bullies rarely consider themselves in the wrong or bullies. Victims don't want to be victimized. Bullies aren't a single demographic, neither are victims. The reason the support network exists is to stop the bullying, teach a lesson, and let both parties grow from it. Violence as the primary solution doesn't teach anything except violence is the answer. If my niece or daughter's first instinct after being bullied was to react violently at the bully, then there would be punishment(no high fives exchanged) later. Violence is the last resort, not the primary response to a situation, and people need to remember that we teach kids this in situations just like this.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, wow, this episode was such a pleasant one! They all are, anyways. :razz:

One of my favorite Cutie Mark Crusader episodes yet! I used to enjoy them before, but not to this extent. I'm actually wanting to see more of them now (with the new member including). :)

One thing I found interesting was the Celestial flag on the left.

It brings up many questions to my mind. Like, "No Lunar flag?"

sunflag.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cute episode...Would have liked to see Scoots kick some flank...But I guess we just ended up with the "Tell a family member!" message you always get in these things instead. Now I'm REALLY looking forward to the next episode.... :shifty::-| !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Babs was a meh character. I don't think that her being bullied was a good excuse for her behavior. I was really hoping the CMC prank would work. She'd fall in the mud, maybe cry a little, and then she'd say something like "Oh, this is just like Manehattan" and then the CMC will learn about the bullying and say sorry. Same resolution, but with the satisfaction on the bullied getting their own back.

Sounds like someone never got bullied.

Well, I certainly did my my freshman year of high school, by another freshman. Well, being a pansy back then, I went to my parents about it, who went to the principle. Seems they'd had trouble with her before, and they talked with her and she stopped bothering me. I later learned that she didn't come from the best of homes... and perhaps she was lashing out at people in school because she was angry with her family, or some such. I don't know all the details, and it wasn't really my right to know.

However, I have also heard that people are afraid to tell an adult. Why? Well, because they know, or have been threatened, that the bullying will get worse if they go to a higher authority. If someone gets bullied off-campus, for example, there's a lot less the school can do to help that situation, if it's not happening on school grounds during school hours. In big schools, it's easier for people to get away with bullying, since there are a lot more students than teachers. Plus, when you tell an adult, you are a bit of a snitch/tattletale. Nobody wants to be known as a pansy who can't take it, or a tattletale that is on the side of the adults. That could mean that even your friends would abandon you, because as soon as they start smoking under the bleachers or skipping class or doing fun and cool things, YOU are the one who is going to go tell a teacher, because you have been labeled as a snitch. Even good kids do bad things, though that may not include bullying. But you tell about a bully, you'll tell about anything wrong.

But, telling my parents worked for me, so I think in the end, it's best to go to an adult if you are being bullied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If they're being harassed(or bullies), there is always a solution. Teachers, police(if we're talking actual harassment), etc. There are a hundred avenues of dealing with a bully or someone who is harassing you that are superior to being violent or going down to their level. You seem to believe that being able to stand on your own means you have to actively shun support networks. That is why bullying has gotten to be such a tipping point in society. Too many tell kids to shun support networks and the avenues open to them and tell them they need to stand up for themselves. Except if the bully isn't a wallflower at his/her core or there are more bullies against the child than not, this leads to further harm. Now the victim can't stand up for him/herself and has been taught to be against telling authorities- tattling, as it were. This leads to a spiral; where the child becomes an eternal victim and sinks into depression. Then the bullying becomes almost secondary to the self-harm the child inflicts on his or herself. Then it is at this stage that something really bad happens. There is a reason why school tragedies that reach national level attention always involve a victim of bullying and not the bully.

And it all could have been avoided if we didn't teach kids that going to a support network makes them weak or dependent on it and we didn't live in a society that mocks those who are less strong than they, even if it is hidden behind the veil of self-reliance. Realize that even as an adult, you rely on the authorities at large to enforce codes of behavior and conduct. They're called police. Unless you're saying we shouldn't call the police as adults when a crime has been committed, I don't see how one can argue that going to an authority figure over bullying makes a child weak and dependent.

People need to realize what bullying is before it can be stopped. Bullies aren't made in labs to torment their victims. Bullies don't wake up in the morning and say, "Today I'm going to make some loser's life miserable!". Bullies rarely consider themselves in the wrong or bullies. Victims don't want to be victimized. Bullies aren't a single demographic, neither are victims. The reason the support network exists is to stop the bullying, teach a lesson, and let both parties grow from it. Violence as the primary solution doesn't teach anything except violence is the answer. If my niece or daughter's first instinct after being bullied was to react violently at the bully, then there would be punishment(no high fives exchanged) later. Violence is the last resort, not the primary response to a situation, and people need to remember that we teach kids this in situations just like this.

What if the teachers are apathetic, or the police are corrupt? What if the very authority figures they're supposed to reach out to, don't want to help? What if the authority figures themselves tell the kids they need to just toughen up? What if you live in Soviet Russia?

Simply put: everyone finds a time in their life where there is simply nobody else they can depend on. Heck, whole SOCIETIES have faced this problem before.

I'm okay with violence as a last resort, and maybe making a token effort to get the word out in case questions need to be asked later (say, if you finally decide to pepper-spray the guy who has been swiping your silverware). The problem with messages like this episode's is that they say running to an authority is the ONLY solution, and that's just terrible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if the teachers are apathetic, or the police are corrupt? What if the very authority figures they're supposed to reach out to, don't want to help? What if the authority figures themselves tell the kids they need to just toughen up? What if you live in Soviet Russia?

Simply put: everyone finds a time in their life where there is simply nobody else they can depend on. Heck, whole SOCIETIES have faced this problem before.

I'm okay with violence as a last resort, and maybe making a token effort to get the word out in case questions need to be asked later (say, if you finally decide to pepper-spray the guy who has been swiping your silverware). The problem with messages like this episode's is that they say running to an authority is the ONLY solution, and that's just terrible.

This dystopia you describe is very likely not a place where MLP would be aired. In the developed world where children can watch MLP, that "toughen up" junk is slowly but surely getting phased out with more proactive anti-bullying measures. At any rate, I don't think children should be explicitly taught that violence is a valid way to solve problems. I think that society would be much worse off if kids get the idea that punching their way out of their woes is a good idea. Heck; your mindset could easily backfire as the bullies could then be encouraged to be even more violent in retaliation. :|

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if the teachers are apathetic, or the police are corrupt? What if the very authority figures they're supposed to reach out to, don't want to help? What if the authority figures themselves tell the kids they need to just toughen up? What if you live in Soviet Russia?

Simply put: everyone finds a time in their life where there is simply nobody else they can depend on. Heck, whole SOCIETIES have faced this problem before.

I'm okay with violence as a last resort, and maybe making a token effort to get the word out in case questions need to be asked later (say, if you finally decide to pepper-spray the guy who has been swiping your silverware). The problem with messages like this episode's is that they say running to an authority is the ONLY solution, and that's just terrible.

What if we live in a zombie apocalypse where there is no authority? You can twist the situation until you can find a scenario where going to the authority is a bad idea, or you can accept that when you're telling your kid how to respond to bullying, any other response other than, "You go and tell a teacher IMMEDIATELY," is blatantly and fully incorrect. This is real life problem, not philosophical or mythical. It requires equally realistic solutions.

The only problem with the episode is at the very end, where Applejack is right there, hears it all, and just looks angry without doing anything. THAT undermines the message.

I'll give the episode a solid 8/10. Babs' accent was a bit too much and the final scene was meh, but there was a lot of good! Better than Too Many Pinkies.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if we live in a zombie apocalypse where there is no authority?

You're losing credibility, dude. Apathetic authorities, corrupt authorities, ineffective or ignorant ones, favoritism, bias... these are all real things that actually happen. In fact, I've dealt with them all my life. You probably have to, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

If you're going to put something very real on the same level as a clearly fantastical scenario as a zombie apocalypse, then clearly there's not much point in discussing this further.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apathetic authorities, corrupt authorities, ineffective or ignorant ones, favoritism, bias... these are all real things that actually happen. In fact, I've dealt with them all my life. You probably have to, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

If there's absolutely ZERO authority figures or outreach groups for bullied children to rely on..... chances are very high that the society in question has either utterly collapsed or is under the throes of a tyrannic government. Until all mechanisms of getting justice break down, I don't think in this day and age that bullying victims should be encouraged to resort to vigilantism. That's just gonna open up a whole 'nother can of worms surrounding anarchy and such. And let's be honest... did you really think that a children's show would advocate anything other than "tell someone"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're losing credibility, dude. Apathetic authorities, corrupt authorities, ineffective or ignorant ones, favoritism, bias... these are all real things that actually happen. In fact, I've dealt with them all my life. You probably have to, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

If you're going to put something very real on the same level as a clearly fantastical scenario as a zombie apocalypse, then clearly there's not much point in discussing this further.

The fact you seem to come from a clearly ridiculous standpoint since the start of this discussion is why you deserved an equally fantastical response in the end. You don't know what you're talking about and you've made that quite clear in every post. We can agree on one thing, that this discussion is over.

I'm still iffy on the song. It was catchy, I liked the chorus in a sense, but something seems off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there's absolutely ZERO authority figures or outreach groups for bullied children to rely on..... chances are very high that the society in question has either utterly collapsed or is under the throes of a tyrannic government.

I can't help but feel you must've lived an extremely blessed life. That's the only way you can hear of everyday things like corruption, apathy, incompetence, human bias or plain 'ol laziness and think they can only happen in extreme or fantastic scenarios.

As I said, I dealt with all of these things--and continue to do so--and I live in the good ol U S of A.

And let's be honest... did you really think that a children's show would advocate anything other than "tell someone"?

To be honest, no. I was skeptical of this episode before it aired. But I didn't expect it to be this bad.

If it weren't that I've been waiting for a Scootaloo-focused episode, I'd make up my mind to always skip CMC episodes in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...