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I always figured Harshwhinny just picked the Crystal Empire because it's the Crystal Empire -- It's been gone for a thousand years and it's the hot new curiosity. As for her saying "she got an unbiased reception," we saw a bunch of bad stuff happen to her, but we don't know what happened off camera. Probably just made her feel good to see a regular Jill get the Royal Treatment for once, too. And y'know, sometimes when you feel good, you make choices to perpetuate the good feelings, even if they aren't the smart choices. I'm sure Ginger can tell us the name of this particular psychological phenomenon?

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Meanwhile, in Cloudsdale...

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Eh, probably not. The Equestria Games are clearly intended to be modeled after the Olympic games. Usually when the host city for the Olympics is decided it's reduced to just a few candidates first which would be inspected and considered closely. Also, if like the Olympics the event is held once every few years, there's been at once one, maybe two Games since the ones in Fillydelphia. The same cities wouldn't be considered each time and it's easy to assume Cloudsdale wouldn't be up as a candidate again already.

Of course, there are other cities that missed out and undoubtedly disappointed foals somewhere. The Crystal Empire is somewhere that the Mane Six have a noted investment in though; they all helped bring it back so that it could rejoin the world. I don't see what's wrong with them picking a side and pulling for it in this selection. It's entirely rational that they would if we just assume none of the other towns they're invested in are candidates for it.

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hi hi

Graft is generally considered to be a bad thing, except perhaps by those participating in it.

They certainly weren't helping to get the stadium built on time, or make sure there was enough food for the spectators or anything like that. The Crystal Empire was essentially ready for the games when the mane six arrived. Win or lose, honest competition is about learning and showing what you are capable of, but unless "being in good standing with a Princess and The Princess's personal protege," or "the ability to give exclusive treatment to regulatory agencies," is on the list of qualifications for hosting the games, nothing they were doing was highlighting the Crystal Empire's capability to host the games.

When you're in a direct competition, one side has to lose the competition. Rainbow Dash of all ponies should know this, which makes her motivation of not having foals feel sad -that she doesn't even know- totally incomprehensible. They could have let Rainbow Dash state that the Crystal Empire was her preferred team, and that the strength of the other teams was motivating her to do an even better job herself, but that was not the case. They could have explained how the process was fun, and that they were going to have fun helping their friends in an honest competition, but they focused on the end result rather than the journey. They could have explained that they wanted to showcase what the Crystal Empire had to offer, but they completely left the Crystal Ponies out of it. (What is more satisfying, accomplishing something yourself, or having someone else swoop in and do it for you? Rainbow Dash isn't a part of the Crystal Empire, in fact, she left as soon as the welcome was over.)

There's nothing wrong with a good natured rivalry, but they framed the idea as if they were trying to prevent disappointment all together, ignoring what typically makes a rivalry a good thing.

(I'm not entirely sure what you mean Dessa... there's Positive Reinforcement, as showcased by operant conditioning. There's also Misattribution of Arousal -the technical kind, alertness and awareness, not the romantic kind- which deals with how people who are feeling excited about one thing are more likely to think other things are exciting too.)

In other news, the winged shoes on the mail pony were totally awesome, and I want a pair. :)

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Claustrophobic Ponies FTW. Seriously, I never thought they'd do a pony with a serious phobia, and I just loved her.

In fact, everything about this episode just freaking rocked. Rainbow Dash's passion (And habit of picking up random fillies, it seems), their desire to succeed, their cheerleading routine (which apparently they fixed on the spot to work with only five ponies when they rehearsed with six), Cadence's mane (d'aaaawwwwww), the poor mistreated Games Inspector, Shining Armor being a... coach? (Hey, wait... is he still captain of the guards at Canterlot? Or did he get someone to replace him?)

And yes, the tiebacks with last week's episode were all really well done.

I only had one criticism, and its a really petty one.

Pinkie sliding on her knees. Pony. Knees. Don't. Bend. That. Way. To be fair, this is pretty much just a pet peeve of mine... I just don't like it when the ponies perform actions that would make more sense for a human than a pony.

But oh well, it only happened twice.

Good episode all around.

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hi hi

Graft is generally considered to be a bad thing, except perhaps by those participating in it.

They certainly weren't helping to get the stadium built on time, or make sure there was enough food for the spectators or anything like that. The Crystal Empire was essentially ready for the games when the mane six arrived. Win or lose, honest competition is about learning and showing what you are capable of, but unless "being in good standing with a Princess and The Princess's personal protege," or "the ability to give exclusive treatment to regulatory agencies," is on the list of qualifications for hosting the games, nothing they were doing was highlighting the Crystal Empire's capability to host the games.

When you're in a direct competition, one side has to lose the competition. Rainbow Dash of all ponies should know this, which makes her motivation of not having foals feel sad -that she doesn't even know- totally incomprehensible. They could have let Rainbow Dash state that the Crystal Empire was her preferred team, and that the strength of the other teams was motivating her to do an even better job herself, but that was not the case. They could have explained how the process was fun, and that they were going to have fun helping their friends in an honest competition, but they focused on the end result rather than the journey. They could have explained that they wanted to showcase what the Crystal Empire had to offer, but they completely left the Crystal Ponies out of it. (What is more satisfying, accomplishing something yourself, or having someone else swoop in and do it for you? Rainbow Dash isn't a part of the Crystal Empire, in fact, she left as soon as the welcome was over.)

There's nothing wrong with a good natured rivalry, but they framed the idea as if they were trying to prevent disappointment all together, ignoring what typically makes a rivalry a good thing.

The first point you make isn't a bad one, though its worth noting that whatever the initial plan was, it was derailed completely early on due to Harshwhinny's early arrival and Cadance's stylist not showing. The mane six had their little cheer routine planned, obviously, but it's unclear what the plan for them was originally going to be. All of them have proven themselves to be good at various tasks, having previously directly helped Cadance organize her wedding as well as organizing a lot of other functions and events. It's very likely that they were originally planned to play more of a background role helping to set things up, and that Cadance would take point with the welcoming herself rather than relying on outsiders. The task was placed on them because of circumstances and because they had earned Cadance's trust.

As for the second point, I don't get it at all. Picking sides in a situation like this is entirely normal, even if Dash isn't from the Empire herself. With her history, she has a clear investment in the Crystal Empire (she no doubt remembers all the time and effort she put into working the Crystal Faire for them at the least) and her aid was called upon by, Cadance, a valued friend who she would hope to please. Why wouldn't she favour the Crystal ponies over the ponies of whoever the competing city/cities are? It's about keeping these ponies that she's invested in from sharing her disappointment, it's not about stopping disappointment everywhere.

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hi hi

Hooray for tribalism and in-group bias I guess. Its one thing to want to help someone you are invested in, because they are important to you. Its another thing to do so at the expense of a stranger. Is it ok to steal a diamond ring if you want to present it as a gift to someone you care about?

The reason why some competitions are healthy is because even the losers get something out of it that makes the competition worthwhile, even if it isn't as fabulous as what they might have gotten if they won, like self-improvement, enjoyment of the moment, personal experience, strengthening social bonds, etc. There's a zillion and one reasons to help, but if the pain of losing is unacceptable, then one shouldn't be competing in the first place.

I mean, its certainly possible that Rainbow Dash forgot the lesson she learned in Fall Weather Friends, I try not to judge episodes based on continuity and it is in line with her character, but everyone else went along like it was a valid concern without blinking an eye. As if shielding them from disappointment is something other than over-protective. (Assuming that it actually hinged on their welcome in the first place and that the hard work of everypony in the Crystal Empire, who we see outside and working hard, wasn't going to be enough to sway the inspector.)

Yes, we don't know what they had originally intended to do, since the plan got derailed. I was simply talking about the motivation that didn't make much sense in that case. The dramatic tension of worrying about what might happen if they failed just didn't materialize for me. But on the flip-side of the coin, their questionable motives made their ineptitude actually kind of charming for me. Making faces to distract a grown adult? I'm not sure I could have chuckled at that if I had actually wanted Pinkie Pie to succeed in the end. (Heh, I remember when Lauren Faust had to re-assure fans that yes, Pinkie Pie wasn't a perfectly wise eccentric genius, and that she would end up being wrong eventually.)

The pony that I was rooting for was the not-inspector, going head to head with some concerted efforts to keep her locked away in a tower, so I was glad that she ended up happy at the end.

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hi hi

Hooray for tribalism and in-group bias I guess. Its one thing to want to help someone you are invested in, because they are important to you. Its another thing to do so at the expense of a stranger. Is it ok to steal a diamond ring if you want to present it as a gift to someone you care about?

This really is a weak comparison. Theft is serious. It's a breach of law. You're taking a piece of property that someone else paid for fairly and taking it without giving up anything in return. It's morally wrong. Favoring one town to host the games over another isn't anything like that at all. No one is doing anything illegal. it's assumed that the other contenders are putting forth the effort just as the Crystal Empire was. If we're talking rings, a better analogy would be if a jeweler has one ring with two parties interested in purchasing it, one of which is your friend. Both have the money and means to get it, but you give your friend a ride to the jeweler so they can get it first. No one expects you to do anything for the party, even if, yeah, they're left disappointed with the result.

Alternatively, it could be compared to a supporting an acquaintance in a job interview over a stranger or just rooting for your friend's favored sporting team over some other team. What we have here is a completely normal, healthy sort of bias. It certainly isn't any kind of theft. People care more for people they know then people they don't. As long as they're not being malevolent, I really don't think there's anything wrong with that either.

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hi hi

Thank you for making my point. Nobody cares if someone gives their friend a ride to the jewelry store to buy a ring that someone else can't get, its not a big deal. You have to stretch things an awful lot in order to make it a big deal.

As I said, "when you're in direct competition, one side has to lose." Its part of the nature of the game.

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Thank you for making my point. Nobody cares if someone gives their friend a ride to the jewelry store to buy a ring that someone else can't get, its not a big deal. You have to stretch things an awful lot in order to make it a big deal.

As I said, "when you're in direct competition, one side has to lose." Its part of the nature of the game.

I really don't understand why you question Dash's motivation here then. That's all this is. She's favoring the ponies of one city over another and working to spare them the disappointment she suffered because she had an attachment to their city and a reason to do support them..

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Ms. Harshwhinny would have clearly been younger in that comic! 3sYlr.png

I think Rainbow's motivation/bias in this episode was wholesome, and left a channel to show her own character growth. It was surprising to see her take a leading role in this episode without her being the primary focus. This is an aspect of good writing!

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hi hi

I admit, I was originally going to reference carneades plank as a metaphor, but it seemed at the time that an exaggerated metaphor was more befitting of ponies screaming their rage and frustration into the sky, as was the case in this episode. I'll try to break this down as simply as I can, though.

• If the result of failure is unacceptable, then the competition itself becomes unacceptable.

• If the result of failure is acceptable, then it is a poor motivation for competition.

Who in their right mind says, "This thing is totally ok, therefore we can't let it happen no matter what?"

Personally, I don't think a bit of disappointment is a very big deal, but I'm trying to understand Rainbow Dash's motivations. Rainbow Dash is acting like there is legitimate pain and suffering that will occur if one city doesn't get selected. But no matter what, one city will not get selected, and in cases of legitimate pain and suffering, the situation in general is unfair and in-group favoritism is not helpful. (I dare-say that the world we live in would be a much nicer place if people would distribute scarcities fairly, instead of favoring their own.) One of the joys of friendship is sharing your blessings, but when there's not enough blessings to go around, having more than others can make you feel pretty awful.

When you are dealing with a plank of carneades situation, it may be true that it isn't strictly immoral to push the other guy off, but then you have to look at the conditions that created the scarcity in the first place and work to change those. (The latter part of which was the lesson of The Ticket Master, so long ago.)

And if what Rainbow Dash said at the end is true, "It feels good to help others get something they always wanted but never had," then if they had completely botched the inspection, they would have been helping the other city get something that Rainbow Dash never had, and thus would have been good too. But Rainbow Dash acted like that wasn't the case.

Elsporko, do you really think disappointment is such a bad thing? If you ask me, disappointment is a natural part of growing up, and can actually be important to learning and growing. I mean, I wasn't going to mention it at first, but roughly one billion children live in poverty in our own world, and thats something that is really important. When resources are scarce, its important to not close your eyes and pretend that the people you don't know don't exist.

If we're accepting that the disappointment of losing is not unacceptable, then Rainbow Dash's bias may be wholesome, but then alternatively, her motivation is weak. Those two factors, the motivation and the bias, flip back and forth opposite each other.

I mean, I'm used to Rainbow Dash being portrayed as a dummy and learning her lesson in the end, but in this instance, everyone was along for the ride until the not-inspector showed up.

Edit: In an attempt to approach this from the other direction, I'll offer a suggestion of how I might have done things a little bit differently.

In the beginning, after Rainbow Dash recounts her strange tale of woe (in which, strangely, nopony else reacts) I would have had Twilight Sparkle say something like, "Relax Rainbow Dash, Princess Cadence wouldn't have chosen us if she didn't think we could do it. Its quite an honor, so lets enjoy it. Besides, the Crystal Ponies have the preparations under control."

Then, from the very beginning, you'd have some interpersonal tension (which is generally interesting), and it would emphasize Twilight's motivation for trying to stay calm and collected later on.

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Well, I'll be brief. This episode's one unique twist is that the previous episode serves as THE backdrop/backstory for THIS episode.

Other than this, sad to say this episode was rather predictable. I saw the plot coming a mile away.

That's not to say there wasn't some funny moments (Pinkie Pie being Pinkie Pie, the 'Mustang' given the wrong welcome, etc) but to me, this episode wasn't one of S3's better efforts.

And no, I won't say a word about next week.... not a single word..... I mean it.....

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Other than this, sad to say this episode was rather predictable. I saw the plot coming a mile away.

Yeah, it would have been pretty nice for them to subvert the important person getting ignored thing, but that certainly would have taken a lot of the suspense out of the episode. I think there would have been enough left over though.

And no, I won't say a word about next week.... not a single word..... I mean it.....

Sigh. You don't have to. Tons of threads that are supposed to be spoiler free are brimming with spoilers.

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hi hi

I'm not sure if having a chicken for a cutie mark really means anything. I mean, if One Bad Apple is any indication, Scootaloo is a thesaurus, not a chicken. On the other hoof though, they are both awesome, so that has to count for something. :)

I suspect that the most obvious reason why she's probably not Scootaloo's mother is because either Twilight or one of her friends, especially Rarity or Applejack, who's little sisters are Scootaloo's friends, would have recognized her. Unless of course they were separated at birth or something, or Chickadee got lost in the jungle and then got amnesia and doesn't remember anyone from her past. And maybe thats why she has a fear of tall, imposing ceilings collapsing on her, because it was a hit to the head that knocked her out the last time.

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hi hi

I admit, I was originally going to reference carneades plank as a metaphor, but it seemed at the time that an exaggerated metaphor was more befitting of ponies screaming their rage and frustration into the sky, as was the case in this episode. I'll try to break this down as simply as I can, though.

Evidently it's not simple enough as I still really don't get what you're getting at with this.

From very early on when she first states her motivation, she says "These Crystal Ponies lost a thousand years to an evil king's curse. They've had enough bad news. No way we're letting them experience the pain of losing out on these games." Rainbow Dash makes it clear that for her this is about the Crystal Ponies. It isn't about preventing her disappointment in somepony else in general; It's about helping and supporting this city which she has an invested interest in and a great deal of sympathy for. Of course she isn't going to look at the other city winning as a good thing with that motivation. She believes that the Crystal Empire has been through enough and deserves to win this. You could call it in-group favoritism, but in Dash's mind the bias is all about being fair. The Crystal Empire losing out on this in her mind is unacceptable as she not only favors them but believes they fundamentally deserve it more.

As for what she says in the ending about it feeling good to help others get something, she's really expressing something different entirely there. She's simply expressing a feeling of satisfaction resulting from her success. Even if the overall outcome is an agreeable one (in this case, for Dash, the Crystal Empire losing out wouldn't have been), people are going to feel more personal satisfaction when their own actions lead to success and not failure. "I totally screwed up but I guess the result is okay" simply does not feel as good as "I helped make this positive result happen" in most circumstances. Even without her motivation to help the Crystal Ponies, even if all it was was her helping out as a favour to a friend and she wasn't particularly invested in either party, I don't think Dash would be expected to feel as good about her actions failing to produce their desired effect as she would with her actions succeeding to do so.

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hi hi

Well, I boiled it down as far as it can go. I guess the only other option is to ramble at length and make a much bigger deal about this than it rightfully deserves. Enjoy the ride. :)

There may be some circumstances where turning different groups of people's hardships into a competition for "who has it worst," is a good idea, but this isn't one of them. Why should little colts and fillies today have to suffer because of something that happened before they were even born? The Crystal Ponies lost a thousand years, but so what? Everyone misses out on all sorts of things, both from the aeons when they're not alive, and all the things that happen when they are. (Even if they make a bunch of clones of themselves, they're still going to miss out on a well neigh infinite number of experiences.) This kind of shared hardship could be the common ground that brings them together, rather than keep them distinctly separate.

If disappointment is truly a bad thing (in the context of Rainbow Dash's perspective and nobody else's) and is something that needs to be minimized for anyone, then ignoring the feelings of other ponies in other places that she does not know constitutes a dramatic lack of empathy. That makes sense for her, because she often is portrayed as callous and vain, but the same is probably not true for all of her friends, and it doesn't make for something I can relate to or be interested in.

And I'm not just talking about Affective Empathy, you can close your eyes and not pay attention to other people in other places and just assume everything will be fine if you want to fool yourself. I'm talking mostly about Cognitive Empathy, about not treating people as individuals, but as labels. Labels like "Crystal Pony," or "other," which is not only degrading to the others who are not present, but to the ponies in the Crystal Empire as well, as it ignores who they actually are. There was a time in our world when slavery was considered a normal, appropriate part of civilization. The feelings of out-groups were not considered. The people in charge weren't emotionally invested in them, they didn't care, but this carelessness also degraded those who were privileged.

And if you don't think that is a fair comparison, because its too serious, then perhaps you can understand why I am unable to take Dash's motivation seriously. In my opinion, she is making a big deal about something that is trivial and frivolous, while completely ignoring anything that makes competition positive. You can give someone something positive without hurting others. Thats fine, you can't be everywhere at once, and there's nothing wrong with preferring those who you share a connection. However, if someone is getting hurt, being pals with the guy who lucked out does not relieve you of the responsibility of trying to prevent the hurt in the first place.

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