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Canterlot Roleplay Is Changing, January 1st!


Rosewind

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There will be no changes to the hosting service.  We will still be using IPS cloud services, which have proven reliable and cost-effective since the switch from the legacy VPS.  I personally own the URL so that is not going anywhere anytime soon.  I will check with IPS to see if SSL login is possible with our current hosting package, but I make no guarantees.

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A quick update.  You may notice some duplicate portions of the board while I'm working on the week of the 1st.  That's part of the moving and cleanup process.  There will also be some culling to remove unused subforum areas.  I will try to have comprehensive "patch notes" out by the end of the week of the RP merge.

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I understand why this change is being proposed.  I suppose the problem i have is the same problem I always have with the changes we keep trying:  You're taking away people's investment in the board, and the board canon.  You're demonstrating that whatever someone does - it doesn't matter to the forums, just to those involved.  And if there's no board canon, what keeps people actually coming to the forums to do it, instead of just doing email RP with their friends?  At every stage, you've been bringing the main RP closer and closer to Free For All.

 

I keep bringing up concerns along these lines - and have mentioned, many, many times, exactly the problems I see arising from them.  And in the carribou invasion event, you saw that my concerns were very valid - there were a lot of complaints which were exactly the complaints I had predicted, and which the people in the RP help staff channel had shouted me down and threatened to get me kicked out for voicing.

 

Without a feeling that you've actually accomplished anything by getting a cast character, and without any investment in board canon - because you're now stating there IS no board canon, period... what feeling of investment are you hoping to keep from the RPers specific to this forum, as opposed to just RPing with their friends somewhere apart from the forums?

 

The thing is - this isn't the only place to do pony RP.  There's several other pony RP forums out there.  The stuff that kept me coming back here is the hold to canon - both show canon and board canon.  That what you did actually meant something.  And our RP forums have always been more successful than the other places.  We keep trying to mimic the places that weren't as successful as us, taking away, step by step, the things which brought me here in the first place.

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I will admit, my main reason for coming here was seeing other sites chaos of Alicorns, Changelings, and [crazy unique pony thing here]. I liked seeing somewhere that looked like it had some history, some rules, and some levels of separation for slice of life style play, adventure play, and free for all.

Still, I'm pretty new. Combining Chronicles and World together doesn't really seem like a huge deal, considering some of the parts of the greater map are kinda sorta ghost towns. Losing all canon? That might be more of an issue, though if the lore is archived I suppose player diligence and approvals will keep RP on the mark for the most part.

Just musing for the moment. Looking forward to more RP opportunities.

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I can only give my own perspective on this, Bramble, although I can see where you're coming from.  

 

I'll admit, Bramble, I haven't been a part of many RP sites, so I can't speak for how ours compares to other pony RP sites in how it operates and what attracts people to it.  I will say, however, that my experience on another furry RP site, Feila, has left me a little more ambivalent on the whole idea of a continuous "board canon."

 

I pushed for that idea when I was promoted to a moderator position, and continued to do so as an admin.  There were a lot of troubles, however, that kept stymieing the good I was trying to do.  For one thing, not all of our members had bought into the idea, which confused continuity between threads that were part of the "meta-plot" and which were not considered so.  

Secondly, the amount of "pre-reading" that became necessary to be brought up to speed became prohibitive, particularly if you wanted to RP with my characters.  Because of this, I ended up just playing with others who had been with the whole story from the beginning, which in turn narrowed the social circle I was operating in, making the whole site less fun in general.

Thirdly (and I don't know if this was particular to our boards or not), but we had a few members get serious RP burnout after a while, which made whole storylines fall apart.  Trying to keep it all together gave me burnout as well, and eventually I ended up leaving the site.

 

I don't want to sour on this site like I did with Feila; I don't want Canterlot to feel too stale for old members, and too unwelcoming to new ones.  At the end of the day, wrangling a few dozen divergent threads into one "board canon" to bring new members up to speed with, all the while writing for my own threads... left a less-than-positive impression on me.

 

Not to say that I don't enjoy collective world-building, I do!  It's just... my own experiences do not lead me to believe that the status quo is a sustainable course.

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Will there be any changes to the gallery? Or will old threads be removed?

The gallery will remain, as will all RP threads and character sheets.  Culling will be done to areas that have been deprecated from use such as the 18+ sections and any outdated lore entries.

 

I understand why this change is being proposed.  I suppose the problem i have is the same problem I always have with the changes we keep trying:  You're taking away people's investment in the board, and the board canon.  You're demonstrating that whatever someone does - it doesn't matter to the forums, just to those involved.  And if there's no board canon, what keeps people actually coming to the forums to do it, instead of just doing email RP with their friends?  At every stage, you've been bringing the main RP closer and closer to Free For All.

 

I keep bringing up concerns along these lines - and have mentioned, many, many times, exactly the problems I see arising from them.  And in the carribou invasion event, you saw that my concerns were very valid - there were a lot of complaints which were exactly the complaints I had predicted, and which the people in the RP help staff channel had shouted me down and threatened to get me kicked out for voicing.

 

Without a feeling that you've actually accomplished anything by getting a cast character, and without any investment in board canon - because you're now stating there IS no board canon, period... what feeling of investment are you hoping to keep from the RPers specific to this forum, as opposed to just RPing with their friends somewhere apart from the forums?

 

The thing is - this isn't the only place to do pony RP.  There's several other pony RP forums out there.  The stuff that kept me coming back here is the hold to canon - both show canon and board canon.  That what you did actually meant something.  And our RP forums have always been more successful than the other places.  We keep trying to mimic the places that weren't as successful as us, taking away, step by step, the things which brought me here in the first place.

I'm going to reiterate that the decision wasn't made lightly.  Avoiding micromanagement of people's characters and canon has been a mantra I have tried my best to follow and I have taken careful steps in attempting to do so.  Streamlining was done for both logistical and gameplay reasons.  A bloated subforum network is not fun for anyone to navigate no matter how veteran you are and is downright impenetrable for a new user.

 

I am not taking away personal investment in anything.  The people who have long-running threads and developed characters from those threads will continue to have personal investment.  The forum provides a safe space for that to take place and a community for the people who choose to roleplay here.  RPs do not take place in a vaccuum.  Others users can and do read RP threads that they are not involved in.  Ideas and inspiration spring from them, not from some nebulous concept of canon that was never fully nailed down in the first place.

 

Having the option of multiple cast means cast gets played more often and more people have the opportunity to do so.  It does not take away investment; arguably it ramps up investment as people strive to be the best Twilight Sparkle or Rainbow Dash or Sombra there is.  Locking out the cast character after one person picks them up only to have them sit on them and do nothing (sometimes through no fault of their own; IRL sucks sometimes) does not help the community as a whole.  I am not taking away your investment, I am giving you the opportunity to give more.

 

The hook for Canterlot is not strict and micromanaged RP, it is community.  It is the choices you make as a player and the connections you build with your characters to other players and the friendships you forge with your RP partners.  We have lasted as long as we have not because of the structure of the RP, but because of the strength of our community.

 

No one can take that away from you.

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Allow me to phrase it in a different way:

 

I heard the same thing before, and then the exact results I predicted happened in the Caribou invasion event.  And then a lot of people wrote off events and lost investment in them, preferring to stick only to main RP instead of taking part in the events.

 

What are you doing *differently* to keep people from losing interest in main RP the same way that they lost interest in the events?

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The thing is, people already aren't posting like they once did in the main RP, and under our current rules, which revolve around a select number of cast players, that is unlikely to change. For the site to become energized again, the paradigm needs to change to something a bit more open.  People don't like to be told no. That is what keeps a community from growing. If we want to encourage new people to become involved and in turn invested, we need to start thinking about things differently.

 

And besides, even with the new rules, nothing will be forced to change for how threads play out unless you want it to. The critical thing to stress here is that you set the rules of the threads you start and you choose which threads you join. If anything, with the rules now needing to be explained in advance, situations likes the caribou event should never happen under the new system.

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These changes were long overdue. Part of good game design (which translates well to roleplay) is giving the player lots of choices. Over the years, we've slowly taken those choices away and left new users with limited choices. Now, we are giving those choices back and allowing more options to play on the site. Players can play more of who they want, how they want, and we won't beat them over the head to get them to post when we want. Freedom of choice and less micro-managing are two major focuses that Dio and I have upheld from the day we took over.

 

I would not consider forum infrastructure change and cast ungating as bad things. Consolidation is removing bloat and allowing more users to get involved with more threads. Cast ungating is allowing more players into those threads with characters they want to play. Perhaps someone will come to the fore that plays an incredible Rainbow Dash or Pinkie Pie. We would never get to see this if we continued to sit on our respective cast characters, locked away in canon-heavy threads rife with exclusivity, huge back stories, and mountains of catch up for the rare new player.

 

Ultimately what you get out of the game is what you're willing to put into it. We're not hacking off anything at the knees here, just giving more choices and options to our community to have fun with. You can still have the big multi-thread canon-and-character-specific roleplays if you'd like. Nobody is saying you can't, and nothing we've changed will affect that.

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Phil - I don't see where any of what you said is any different from what happened at the Caribou event.  What you're saying is 'You don't have to get involved in these threads if you don't want."  ... but you didn't have to get involved in the event if you don't want.  Another way of rephrasing what you're saying is "If you don't like what's happening, then just don't participate."  And 'Don't participate' does not sound like a way to raise participation.

 

Rose - ... I'm not sure if you're responding to me?  None of that addresses any of my concerns, it's just re-iterating what you're trying to achieve with the changes.

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I am personally confused about why extended-canon creatures such as giraffes would be accepted.  They have not yet been shown in the show, and it was already stated to me very clearly that comic lore was not to be considered part of board lore and canon.  I remember a thread from a little while ago debating for giraffes, and I'm not opposed to the idea of implementing more species.  But-my question still remains-Why stick so true to show lore/canon but allow creatures that have never been, or have had little role in the show itself?  Also considering how the EqG world is not part of board lore. 

 

In some manner, I do agree with MidnightMask and Bramble Rose.  Part of the reason why I decided to stay on this forum and participate on here was because I liked the structured environment and detailed/strict rules.  While I haven't been on here as long as Bramble and therefore cannot make as many comments, I do hope that allowing more choices and freedom will not produce litter and messes that may deviate potential members and/or registered members to reconsider this amazing forum and take leave.

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Phil - I don't see where any of what you said is any different from what happened at the Caribou event.  What you're saying is 'You don't have to get involved in these threads if you don't want."  ... but you didn't have to get involved in the event if you don't want.  Another way of rephrasing what you're saying is "If you don't like what's happening, then just don't participate."  And 'Don't participate' does not sound like a way to raise participation.

 

Rose - ... I'm not sure if you're responding to me?  None of that addresses any of my concerns, it's just re-iterating what you're trying to achieve with the changes.

 

I don't really get where you're coming from. The choice of what threads to participate in is already on the player. Nothing is really changing aside from instead of vague, hard to pin down distinctions like WoE and CC, the players starting each thread will now be the ones laying out what the rules are. As I see it, it should only make choosing the threads right for you easier than before.

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Ah, I see.  I'll expand a bit.

 

Previously, whatever you wrote was board canon.  You didn't have to review all of the history of the board in order to start an RP, but you were aware that - whatever you wrote?  That's what happened in the board.  As ponies changed hooves, there could be ret-cons as new 'authors' took over the 'title', but for the most part - if you wrote it, that's what happened for your character.

 

This creates a feeling of investiture.  The RP forums were more than just 'whatever threads you were in'.  You were part of a larger world.

 

Now, you're taking that away.  You're no longer part of a larger world of RP, where everything matters.  It lays out quite clearly that the only things that matter to you are your threads - everything else does not affect you at all, and you do not affect it at all.  there are multiple authors on the same character, and they're all equally valid, meaning that whatever you do does not affect the board as a whole.

 

Plus, this makes it very hard to do public threads.  It takes a lot more work to have to lay down a specific history for your public thread, and a larger barrier to entrance because anyone who wants to join has to take the time to read up that history and verify their character can match that history.  Or, if someone else is putting it together, and you're joining - right now, it looks like it's an OK thread to join, but you never know who might show up afterwards to really change the tone of the thread.

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Bramble Rose pretty much summed up my concerns regarding the changes that I spoke about earlier - the fact that there is no longer going to be a board-wide "canon" that characters need to follow. There will be no overlying continuity to the RP forums that'll make it easy to jump into any thread I wanted. And yes, I can just make sure I only join threads that follow what's going to be "traditional" lore, but instead of having sections where I definitively knew everything I RPed would be canon for my character (i.e. WoE and CC), canon will be all over the place, and what I do in one thread might be completely negated in another thread that has a really cool idea but one small AU facet that prevents me from joining. It technically works, but it feels like main RP is basically going to be a merging of FFA and WoE/CC, which will be even more confusing. Like a giant Omnium Gatherum with threads geographically spread all over the map stuffed into one place, plus AUs filtered throughout.

Personally, I'm one of those RPers who likes having a defined lore and canon for RP. I can work to make my character stand out within constrictions, not alter history and lore to better suit my character's needs. I mean, my main character Inkbrand was rejected from WoE at first, and instead of sticking to CC I altered some of his application and tried again. And I know any other character I RP with will have worked within the same constrictions. It's already a problem I've faced when RPing with cast characters - my character has a certain relationship with one Applejack, and thus can't join in a thread I really wanted with another Applejack because his relationship with that Applejack is entirely different. There's nothing to be done about that, it's just something I accepted having to be mindful of when RPing with cast characters - but now that's going to be multiplied by however many Applejacks in however many AUs in however many threads. I know these changes are being made to try and revitalize RP, but it feels like non-standardized canon is just going to end up alienating "traditional" vs "AU" RPers from one another.

Anyways, it's December 31st, I'm sure these changes are already going into effect. Maybe most people will end up sticking to traditional lore threads, so my worries may be all for nothing. I just felt the need to say that I'm in agreement with Bramble Rose on this one.

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Bramble - I don't know if this sums up the issues with the Caribou event well, but it seemed to me that the main issue is that one group of staff/players wanted to implement a really dramatic shift in tone & lore, which another group (you included) strongly objected to.  The trouble with board-wide canon is that a full consensus is usually required for it to work in practice, which tends to break down when you have a split between players who want a major change in the lore/storyline and those who prefer the status quo.

 

What we're trying to do is make an environment where players are more encouraged to take bigger steps in driving their stories, without running into too many obstacles/objections.  I, myself, have been contemplating my own ideas that might result in some pretty major upheavals in location lore, but that sort of change would affect the playground for everyone, in ways that might not be taken well.  I mean, not everyone here would appreciate a Maretonian Revolution, or an attempted Imperial Griffon resurgence.  Is there a better way to accommodate those who would?

 

I know it's hard to convey sincerity over pure text, but I really am serious in asking for any suggestions.  There are certain changes in board structure that we're committed to at this point, but community guidelines and practices are (and for that matter, always have been) adjustable to best fit the needs of our players.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that the intention is to move from having to say "No, you can't do that; it will break board canon" to "Yes, here is how you can do that without breaking board canon" without making either group of players feel like second-class citizens.

 

And honestly, there's as much potential for coordination and integration as there is for division, especially among the players who share a cast character.  That, again, is going to be a community responsibility, but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, as far as coordinating with any other Blueblood player, for instance.  I've already tried to continue threads and relationships from the previous player as much as possible.  It's only that sort of shared commitment that makes any sort of "board canon" possible in the first place, regardless of whether or not its written into the regulations.  If we leave it space to operate, it will come together.

 

(Phew... I am up way too late, and I'm not sure if I'm making sense...)

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We are changing soon. Thoughts: The reason we didn't have events past the Caribou Invasion save one is not because, as some fantasize, the reaction from some people here(Which as I like to remind people, we received overwhelmingly more positive feedback on). It was because of issues involving both the event team and some ideas we had that we didn't get we needed for. 

I only bring this up because a few people are bringing this up to support or oppose the current changes one way or another, when they are very different situations.

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I see that the changes have already begun.  Time difference still places me in December, but I'm really glad that the forum is willing to change and adapt to its users and members.  Smart.  Like the show, in a way.  Growing with its members :)

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A quick side note.. there are a few Cast members I'd like to see remain under the control of one person. Simply because I've seen them pull it off the best, stay true to the character, and even develope them a bit further with complexities. In other words... they aren't just NPCs

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Oh, and as another question -

 

Back when I was helpstaff, when someone's character was unsuitable for main RP, I never did say 'no'.  I said, "This character would be more suited to Free-For-All."  Directed them over to that area.  What are these changes supposed to provide that Free-For-All does not provide?

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While we are allowing multiple cast and more flexible roleplay thread canon, we are still holding OCs to the same standards. Your character still need to be reviewed and accepted. If we don't find your character acceptable to the level we would have accepted a CC character, that character won't be accepted

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I almost forgot: WoE now has a Cast & Lore Discussion area, providing a dedicated space for topics relating to cast player, lore, and AU canon matters. I hope that section really takes off over the next few weeks. :D

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