Want to App an Extended-Canon Species? (Last Ruling Update - 6/8)

[Bellosh]

Fair enough, though I DO think some lore building should be a thing. Because truly, what makes the various races interesting to play are their differences and cultures. And while I'm certain staff will get around to that at some point, I do feel like having some input from the player base is always a good option, as it gives staff a possible starting point as it would show what people may be interested in!

How I see things, while we discourage players from inventing Lore in character applications, it's a different thing to add to the World through roleplay and OOC collaboration. The show and our WoE Lore serve as a solid framework to base our RP environment, but ultimately, it's futile for RPH to try filling in every blank space on the map. As long as players respect our basic worldbuilding framework (and app rules), everyone has the freedom to invent little bits here and there to further spice up their RPs. You know how many OOC topics are recruitment threads for a particular organization? Who's to say that within reason, a cultural group in WoE can't be created the same way? Sure, it won't be official official, but if your idea cultivates enough clout within the playerbase, that inconvenient fact might not even matter.

 

I don't mind people endlessly suggesting extended-canon species. Better you get disappointed here than after you put all that hard work into an OC application. 

 

Gargoyles: No objection, just as long as gargoyle (and centaur) OCs come from someplace sufficiently far away from civilized Equestria. Maybe they can hang out wherever the minotaurs live. XD

 

Harpies: I'm on the fence with them. Unlike the riddling sphinxes, harpies are generally known in Greek mythology as instruments of punishment; a role that doesn't necessarily imply sentience. Then again, like the harpies, Pegasus was just an non-sentient animal sired by a deity, yet MLP turned Pegasus into a species of talking ponies. Hmmmm........ I'll need more thought first.

[Dubstep]

How I see things, while we discourage players from inventing Lore in character applications, it's a different thing to add to the World through roleplay and OOC collaboration. The show and our WoE Lore serve as a solid framework to base our RP environment, but ultimately, it's futile for RPH to try filling in every blank space on the map. As long as players respect our basic worldbuilding framework (and app rules), everyone has the freedom to invent little bits here and there to further spice up their RPs. You know how many OOC topics are recruitment threads for a particular organization? Who's to say that within reason, a cultural group in WoE can't be created the same way? Sure, it won't be official official, but if your idea cultivates enough clout within the playerbase, that inconvenient fact might not even matter.

 

I don't mind people endlessly suggesting extended-canon species. Better you get disappointed here than after you put all that hard work into an OC application. 

 

Harpies: I'm on the fence with them. Unlike the riddling sphinxes, harpies are generally known in Greek mythology as instruments of punishment; a role that doesn't necessarily imply sentience. Then again, like the harpies, Pegasus was just an non-sentient animal sired by a deity, yet MLP turned Pegasus into a species of talking ponies. Hmmmm........ I'll need more thought first.

Very very true! It's better to ask before diving head first. A little disappointment is better than pouring so much work into something to get a no. *nodnod*

If it helps thoughts on the Harpies, I recommend checking in some on the Raptorians. Though, kinda like Diamond Dogs, we only have 3 sorta bumbling examples I supposes hehe. I doubt they would look like Raptorians, since harpy body + dog head looks a lil silly...at least in G1 Style!

Thanks for the patience hehe, I'm sure I'll pop in more when I think of other plausible ideas too :3c

[Windwright]

Was there a concensus reached on Dronies?

[Zeig]

Well since we have lions with wings, could we possibly add Kitsunes to the species list? I'd imagine they'd essentially look like foxes with multiple tails, with the number of tails growing based on the age of the Kitsune (I would suggest nine-tails being off limits, as according to Japanese myth, that would bring a Kitsune a whole lot of OP powers that I don't think could possibly work in a RP setting).

[Bellosh]

Dronies: I've got absolutely no idea what they are. Google isn't being much of a help on this one. :S

 

Harpies: Still on the fence about them. Going by the same design philosophy we provisionally assigned for the sphinx, a harpy would have a bird head of sorts, possibly a vulture one (seems pretty much in-character to me). However, classical harpies were pretty much nothing more than a bird than a human head, and whenever possible I want to avoid turning mythological species into straight-up talking animals.

 

Kitsunes: Also on the fence with kitsunes. Here, we'd have a bit of a challenge explaining a kitsune's magical abilities and defining its limits. I uhhh, suppose the tails have to do something with it, I guess. But the most important question of all...... could a kitsune with two-tails spin them around to fly? XD

 

-------

 

In other news, Qilin are the second extended-canon species to receive official RPH approval. Congrats!

[CoffeeLand]

Are yaks an already accepted species?

[Bellosh]

Yes; please read the RP Species List which I linked to in the OP.

[QuickLime]

Kitsunes don't make a ton of sense, as we have characters in WOE with domesticated Foxes...

[Bellosh]

Yeah well, domesticated foxes usually don't successfully masquerade as sentient beings. 

 

Again, I can't make a definitive judgement at this time.

[Ciraxis]

We got two new species just like that. Let's play a little with new toys before asking for additional ones. Otherwise people will end as OC-addicts. Although that may not be such a bad thing.

 

And honestly I wouldn't wish for every single mythological species to end up playable. Leave something for a bestiary. Like harpy for example. In my opinion it's better as a (dangerous) pest that you throw apples at, then something that you play.

[Bellosh]

On Ciraxis's note, there's one more thing to keep in mind. Just because we might give provisional approval for an extended-canon species here doesn't mean we're bound by that judgement when evaluating actual applications. For app evaluations, we have the right to look at additional factors that we haven't originally considered before making a final, definitive call on a species. With Abada and Qilin, their equine traits made them relatively easy calls to make. For something like a Sphinx however, we may very well decide not to allow them as a playable species even if we already indicated what physical attributes we'd permit.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Bellosh101

[Zeig]

Yeah, there's kind of a difference between pet foxes and magical, sentient foxes. And obviously a two-tailed Kitsune would be able to use its tails to fly, what else would they be used for?!

I can understand the hesitance about Kitsunes though, the traits that are generally universal to the creature are either too OP (i.e. omnipotence and possession) or infringe on the special abilities other species' have (like their noted ability to shapeshifting abilities). They seem to be portrayed in lore as either as benevolent spirits or mischievous trickers though, which is something that could be played on. Maybe they can emit auras that have either positive or negative effects on whoever they're around. So instead of having active magic, they have some sort of passive magic instead.

And honestly I don't see a problem with people being OC addicts. I mean, there are people who app/hoard cast characters but never actually RP them, or rarely do. Don't see why it would be bad for people to do the same with OCs.

[Ciraxis]

Well now it's not the problem, but back when only one person could play a cast character at the time....

 

But back to kitsune. Their kind being quite a complicated one I would limit their abilities a little.

Shape-shifting is quite obvious, it's changeling whole gimmick after all. It may be limited by age, time limit or some other things. If they had to have it, they shouldn't do it as good as changelings.

What take my interests was kitsune ability to ward evil. Maybe they could...stave off dark magic with their mere presence? In the same way that perytons purify their surroundings.

Illusions is other strong trait that is tied to them. It would be weird to take it from them, however I have no idea how to distinguish fox illusions from that made by talented unicorn.

[Bellosh]

With all this discussion about how kitsune magic could potentially work in WoE, always keep in mind that without official Lore, we can't really ensure that your vision becomes a reality without running the risk of breaking another player's immersion in our roleplay environment. Unless you can't easily tie down a proposed ability to established FiM/WoE species elements (equine horns = spell-casting magic, draconic bodies = breath-magic, etc.), then chances are it's something that isn't the purview of the Extended-Canon Species Initiative.

 

Concerning kitsune, I'm now starting to lean towards a No. It's becoming apparent that it might very well be a species that cannot be adequately played without definitive guidance from WoE Lore.

[Zeig]

Ah...so species ability should be relatable to an already established WoE ability or species? I didn't know that. I thought it was more about taking a mythological creature and translating it to make it more WoE appropriate. There was talk about a new Kelpies species being shape-shifters, but to my knowledge that only comes from their mythology, not anything related to WoE species (unless Kelpies are going to be part bug). So that's kind of how I treated the two species I apped/proposed.

If Kitsune were allowed however, could it be agreed that their physical appearance would look like a fox with multiple tails? If this initiative is to avoid lore-building, then instead of coming up with magical abilities for the entire species, players can just suggest what magic their Kitsune can do in the application, much like a person would indicate what magic a Unicorn can do, if any. Maybe Kitsune don't have any active magic powers, they are simply magical by their existence (by that, I mean that they are not 'normal' creatures, having an appearance and intelligence that is different from non-sentient animals. Kinda like how a Minotaur is a magical creature, but doesn't actually use magic, it just is).

I might try creating an app for a Kitsune, if the staff doesn't really have a decisive opinion about them yet. Maybe that way RP staff could get an idea of how a Kitsune might be played in a RP setting, and it would stick more closely to the Extended-Canon Species Initiative - a basic physical description, with everything else about the app being specific to the individual character.

[Dubstep]

Dronies: I've got absolutely no idea what they are. Google isn't being much of a help on this one. :S

 

Harpies: Still on the fence about them. Going by the same design philosophy we provisionally assigned for the sphinx, a harpy would have a bird head of sorts, possibly a vulture one (seems pretty much in-character to me). However, classical harpies were pretty much nothing more than a bird than a human head, and whenever possible I want to avoid turning mythological species into straight-up talking animals.

Dronies are, well, Dragon Pony Hybrids. Since mythologically speaking, dragons tend to be able to interbred with a lot of different creatures. It'd be like a Hippogriff, but dragonish.

As for Harpies, perhaps instead of just Harpies, the original Raptorians might work better. Going with the canine head and the harpy like body. It would not only keep out the worry of being straight-up talking animals, it'd keep them closer to their G1 counterparts.

[Bellosh]

Ah...so species ability should be relatable to an already established WoE ability or species?

It's not necessarily a requirement for an extended-canon species, but it sure helps make it far easier of a sell.

 

instead of coming up with magical abilities for the entire species, players can just suggest what magic their Kitsune can do in the application, much like a person would indicate what magic a Unicorn can do, if any.

What I'm primarily concerned with, and getting a headache over, is the process by which a kitsune wields its magic. Once we know that, everything else should hopefully fall in place.

 

I might try creating an app for a Kitsune, if the staff doesn't really have a decisive opinion about them yet.

If your intent is mainly to determine what staff will or won't allow for kitsune, we honestly prefer that you hold off on making an app.

[Zeig]

That's why I suggested the idea of passive magical abilities rather than active ones. Pegasi and Earth Ponies have magic just as much as Unicorns, they just can't utilize it (maybe because of the lack of a focusing agent, i.e. a horn). The way I imagined Kitsune was similar, in that whatever magical abilities they have are passive in nature, rather than something they can actively manipulate or control.

I'll leave my arguments for/discussions about Kitsunes at that then, and won't make an app.

[Bellosh]

Dronies are, well, Dragon Pony Hybrids. Since mythologically speaking, dragons tend to be able to interbred with a lot of different creatures.

I'm going to need more than your word on this one; I'm not finding anything authoritative with a Google search.

 

the original Raptorians might work better. Going with the canine head and the harpy like body. It would not only keep out the worry of being straight-up talking animals, it'd keep them closer to their G1 counterparts.

Eh, G1 Raptorians look rather silly to me anyway. Only thing I'd take from their design are those claw-like hands at the end of their wings. Perhaps if we attached those wing-claws to an equine-sized vulture, we'll have ourselves a suitable harpy, perhaps.

 

That's why I suggested the idea of passive magical abilities rather than active ones.

Hmmm, a part of me that feels it's cheap not letting a kitsune possess attributes expected of it in mythology. Then again, we definitely wouldn't approve of kitsune apps who'd be of the right age (+100 years old) to have such OP abilities anyway. I suppose then that as a consolation prize for only permitting child and adolescent kitsune, we could let users give them a passive ability.

 

HOWEVER

 

Thinking about the kitsune's wisdom makes me think of Yoda's species from the Star Wars franchise. The worldbuilding lore behind SW is developed to such a ridiculous degree that dozens upon dozens of aliens from the films and outside of them have been written about and their attributes set in stone..... all that is, except for the species that wise ole' Jedi Master Yoda belongs to. As Yoda is the wisest and most long-lived character of his time, the powers that run SW decided that it is best to keep his species a complete mystery: it's been 35 years and we still don't even have a name for it! The logic behind this decision is that it cheapens Yoda's mystique if we know too much about his background.

 

A similar argument can be made for kitsune, who are also meant to be wise and long-lived. Unlike fire-breathing adolescent dragons in MLP, adolescent kitsune in our RP environment wouldn't be able to fall back on their traditional powers. To me, that just cheapens kitsune and what they're supposed to represent in Japanese culture. Like with Yoda's species in Star Wars, perhaps the kitsune is something that's best left unsullied by not making it a playable species.

 

This will be my final thought on the matter unless someone comes up with a convincing counterargument in favor of playable kitsune.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Bellosh101

[Dubstep]

I'm going to need more than your word on this one; I'm not finding anything authoritative with a Google search.

 

Eh, G1 Raptorians look rather silly to me anyway. Only thing I'd take from their design are those claw-like hands at the end of their wings. Perhaps if we attached those wing-claws to an equine-sized vulture, we'll have ourselves a suitable harpy, perhaps.

I'll see if I can find something on where I read that *nodnod*

And yeah, G1 Raptorians look a little silly, but that's thinking in G1 terms. If they translated over to G4 they certainly wouldn't look....quite as lumpy? I think just adding claws to a vulture would just be basically 'Well now we have talking vultures'. But with the canine head and avian-like body, it'd be more unique and closer to what they originally were.

[Bellosh]

Very well then, I suppose I'll just recommend that players don't try apping Harpies.

 

I'm still a bit wary of Raptorians though. I know FiM and WoE have plundered ideas from G1 before, but even with stuff like Tirek and the Smooze, they underwent radical revision before showing up in G4. Raptorians will undoubtedly require the same extensive treatment, which I don't think falls under the purview of the Extended-Canon Species Initiative.

 

The point behind extended-canon species is that they are not meant to require unofficial guidelines laid down here in order for a player to have a clear idea of what's acceptable or not. In case you haven't noticed, the concepts that have earned the most enthusiastic support so far are those that didn't require much debate in the first place. It's species concepts like those which stand the highest chance of being approved by RPH. The more doubt that exists over what a species' RP appearance and attributes should be, the less likely we'll feel comfortable enough to sign off on it.

 

For now, I'm going to recommend that users don't try apping Raptorians as well.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Bellosh101

[Dubstep]

Very well then, I suppose I'll just recommend that players don't try apping Harpies.

 

I'm still a bit wary of Raptorians though. I know FiM and WoE have plundered ideas from G1 before, but even with stuff like Tirek and the Smooze, they underwent radical revision before showing up in G4. Raptorians will undoubtedly require the same extensive treatment, which I don't think falls under the purview of the Extended-Canon Species Initiative.

 

The point behind extended-canon species is that they are not meant to require unofficial guidelines laid down here in order for a player to have a clear idea of what's acceptable or not. In case you haven't noticed, the concepts that have earned the most enthusiastic support so far are those that didn't require much debate in the first place. It's species concepts like those which stand the highest chance of being approved by RPH. The more doubt that exists over what a species' RP appearance and attributes should be, the less likely we'll feel comfortable enough to sign off on it.

 

For now, I'm going to recommend that users don't try apping Raptorians as well.

Hmm, well I certainly wasn't meaning there were any unofficial guidelines. It was more saying 'Hey if they look weird this way, go this way.' If it were just, y'know, Raptorians, they could easily have fit in. Dog heads, bird-like bodies. Easy peasy. I was just saying 'Yeah they look a little weird, so maybe it could be different if staff wanted'.

[Windwright]

Re: Dragons interbreeding with anything.

 

I can find a few literary sources, some of which predate D&D which has the most notable examples, and the concept crops up a bit in video games, animation, and it's worth mentioning that Rarity doesn't seem to find Spike's crush outlandish, so a pony/dragon relationship is possible. Hybridising is the question at hand though, so I guess it depends on how literally you want to take certain heroic figure's boasts of being descended from dragons.

[Zealot]

What about an immortal spirit? I wanted to play one of my characters with their extended canon.

 

They're not too powerful, though if threatened they could resort to magic which would be the equivalent of a medium/high level battle mage unicorn. Most of the time they use their magic to spread happiness, confidence and to aid in their own personal struggles. They don't know on a conscious level they're part powerful immortal spirit, and to everyone else they appear like an average pony. Sort of a symbiotic relationship, the spirit tags along and assists them while enjoying seeing them lead that pony's life. They're not even aware of the spirit's existence unless directly threatened, or if a curious pony spots something off and gets very curious about it, or if they are discovered via some sort of magic.

[Bellosh]

What about an immortal spirit? I wanted to play one of my characters with their extended canon.

 

Please read the entire WoE Playable Species list before making pitches here; especially the end where it explicitly prohibits spirit OCs from being applied for.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Bellosh101