A Minor Analysis on the Elements of Harmony

[Solaria]

So, after the finale I've had a thought tugging at the edge of my mind that finally took form today. After Queen Chrysalis defeated Celestia, the Mane 6 were told to fetch the Elements of Harmony to defeat the changeling horde. Obviously they failed to retrieve them and Cadence/Shining Armor took over from that point, but I thought about how the Elements were used previously: they returned Luna to her normal form, and restored Discord's stasis. In that manner, they restored what was previously the norm, or fixed anomalies in Equestria as it were. How then would the Elements have worked against Chrysalis and the changelings? Would they have driven them out of Canterlot to restore "order?"

If so, who decides what order or the norm in Equestria is anyway? The Elements themselves? I believe it's been said that the Elements predate Celestia and Luna, and Celestia herself stated that they won't work for her or her sister anymore. This brings in a thought of some form of autonomous thought. Why have the effects of the Elements always run congruently with Celestia's wishes or thoughts, despite her not wielding them anymore?

The changelings are part of Equestria, just as the ponies are. Nightmare Moon was admittedly an aberration, and I suppose Discord could be called the same, though I'm doubtful on that explanation, but Chrysalis and her subjects weren't (in my opinion). Overall, why is the dominance of ponies upheld by objects that are supposedly intended to uphold balance?

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I guess we'll never know how the Elements of Harmony might have effected the changelings. If I had to hazard a guess, I think there's a few ways they could have done it. They could have returned all the stolen love that the Changelings had taken, weakening them so that they were no longer a threat. Or maybe it might have just separated the fighting parties, much like a parent separating two fighting children. The elements are about Harmony not order. Harmony is a balance between consonance and dissonance, not consonance above all else. Its about people getting along in spite of differences, not that they don't have differences at all.

I don't think its that the elements always run congruently with Celestia's wishes or thoughts. Its the other way around. Celestia, having learned about friendship herself understands the nature of the elements and acts in accordance with them instead. She may not wield the Elements proper, but the elements exist to some degree in the hearts of everyone. Friendship is magic after all.

The elements of harmony don't uphold the dominance of ponies. They uphold friendship and harmony. This includes griffins, donkeys, mules, cows, zebras, and all the cute little woodland creatures too. Nightmare Moon may have been an aberration, but she was a pony and Luna was at least partially responsible for her own actions.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

Well... the Elements are responsible for restoring Harmony in Equestria. Discord, by default, was not encased in stone. The Elements did that, possibly of their own accord, because that was the only way for Harmony to be retained. Nightmare Moon/Luna could be redeemed, so the Elements did so.

Do the Elements decide the path, or do the ponies wielding them? I would say the latter. Why not, at the beginning, change Nightmare Moon back into Luna? Why the banishment? Well, I suppose she had to learn a lesson.

As for Discord, the form he takes is his true one. He has no chance of redemption, because he is the embodiment of chaos.

I would say that the Elements would have a similar effect on the Changelings as the outcome that befell them in the episode. They may be evil, but they also seem to just be following orders. Recall that Chrysalis had to give some of them the order to go out and feed.

It's simply how they are, if I may be so bold, forced to live. They need to feed. It is in their nature. They must always have some creature to prey upon. They act merely for the purpose of survival, not to necessarily cause disharmony. Chrysalis' intentions may have been seen as evil, and perhaps she herself was. What she did can be justified by saying that she just wanted to keep her subjects well-fed and healthy. Of course, she did want to control Equestria, but would that not making it easier to feed?

I feel like I'm kind of getting off on a tangent, but my main point was that the Changelings do not deserve punishment just for living. Sure, they were thrown out of Equestria, but they were not banished, destroyed, or imprisoned. They were still free, because for the most part, they merely did as they were told in order to survive. Nightmare Moon and Discord both had selfish intentions.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Chrysalis said that she'd never found a place with so much love before. Therefore, she did not need to drain the whole place dry in order to feed her people, but she craved power as well. (Applejack does not need to destroy her apple trees in order to get enough to eat.)

[Solaria]

Hm, both interesting points. I guess I only focused on the pony side of things because that's what the show focuses on, not donkeys, zebras, griffins, etc. I let the fairly narrow scope of the actual show limit my own thinking, despite the fact that all of those other races obviously exist as well. In that case, why wouldn't the Elements restore harmony in other parts of the world aside from Equestria? I guess because they actively have to be used by their current wielders, but why would only ponies have the option to wield such power in the first place?

As for Tales's analysis, if we're going along with the fact that the Elements restore harmony between races, I'm guessing the situation for the changelings must have been at least somewhat desperate for them to do something as bold as trying to subvert Canterlot. With them being removed at the end of the episode, wouldn't they be forced back into whatever crisis they were dealing with before? I'm wondering how that would justify as harmony between the races. I suppose the claim that Chrysalis desired power and was using her minions to that end makes a bit of sense, but she would need to be awfully self-assured in the first place to undertake such a plan. It doesn't completely dispel my pondering about what else may have driven the changelings to invade Canterlot.

[SilverSwirl]

From my own perspective on the matter, the closest thing I can think of that could possibly correlate with the Elements and the effects they can have on living beings and the environs of Equestria is the Triforce. Except the only caveat it has is that it depends on who possesses it and what their true desires are. I will elaborate more when my thoughts are in better order and doing more fact checking.

[Rosewind]

So if the Changelings feed on love, and Cadence and SA used love to bonk them out of Equestria...wouldn't they have fed on the love instead or something? Or it might have had an overwhelming tidal wave effect that straight up banished them.

I think the physical EoH serve as more of a macguffin, and the real Elements reside in the hearts of the mane characters -- and in us.

[Solaria]

I do like that thought Rosie, that the overwhelming love that powered Shining Armor's spell fed the changelings for a long time to come. But what of those that weren't present in the invasion? If Chrysalis were any kind of good queen or strategist, she didn't bring the entirety of her people to serve as an invasion force. With how long she fooled everypony in Canterlot, including the princesses, I'm inclined to believe she's at least that cunning and intuitive.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

If the amount of Chrysalis fan art is any indication, I suspect that there's plenty of folks that wouldn't mind giving her a little bit of love if she asked politely.

[Cathalos]

prehaps a changling is simply a pony that supported disharmony and changed form from existing in a state of unfriendlyness for so long, so they did get punished by the elements, or the holders, because they voluntarily chose to join the bad guys. that, or im really, really wrong. just a thought.

[starswirlthebearded]

I'd like to mention that when the Changlings were banished it looks like their kingdom was OUTSIDE of Equestria. If you looked there was a barren wasteland looking thing in the horizon. It kinda reminded me of the elephant graveyard from The Lion King.

Remember Equestria is the Kingdom, not the world. There are other areas that are not a part of Equestria. Queen Chrysalis even suggested that her hoard had to travel far to get to Equestria. And even said there was no land with more love than Equestria (suggesting that she had been to other lands to feed).

[Solaria]

I'd like to mention that when the Changlings were banished it looks like their kingdom was OUTSIDE of Equestria. If you looked there was a barren wasteland looking thing in the horizon. It kinda reminded me of the elephant graveyard from The Lion King.

Remember Equestria is the Kingdom, not the world. There are other areas that are not a part of Equestria. Queen Chrysalis even suggested that her hoard had to travel far to get to Equestria. And even said there was no land with more love than Equestria (suggesting that she had been to other lands to feed).

So are you saying that the Elements only maintain harmony within the confines of Equestria? If so, wouldn't that discourage influxes of immigrants from other countries to keep the balance from being upset? How then is the current "harmonic state" of the country decided?

[starswirlthebearded]

So are you saying that the Elements only maintain harmony within the confines of Equestria? If so, wouldn't that discourage influxes of immigrants from other countries to keep the balance from being upset? How then is the current "harmonic state" of the country decided?

Not exactly. I think they have a limit to how far they can maintain balance though. It looks like it can only dispel disharmony in the direct vicinity. I see no reason why it cannot be used outside of Equestria. But using the EoH won't affect any disharmony outside of Equestria because those lands are not within its current range of power.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

I'd like to mention that when the Changlings were banished it looks like their kingdom was OUTSIDE of Equestria. If you looked there was a barren wasteland looking thing in the horizon. It kinda reminded me of the elephant graveyard from The Lion King.

Funnily enough, I used a Lion King 2 comparison in the episode topic:

Parallel evolution eh? Interesting... Similar traits but different environment caused for a change in purpose... One is predatory while the other is not... Interesting, I like it!

So kind of like:

[elsporko]

Do the Elements decide the path, or do the ponies wielding them? I would say the latter. Why not, at the beginning, change Nightmare Moon back into Luna? Why the banishment? Well, I suppose she had to learn a lesson.

Celestia was unable to use the elements as half of them belonged to Luna. Thats why Nightmare Moon was banished.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

Celestia was unable to use the elements as half of them belonged to Luna. Thats why Nightmare Moon was banished.

In the legend that Twilight reads in episode 1, it shows that Celestia used all six of the Elements to defeat/banish Nightmare Moon.

[DrMaxwell]

I think that both the elements and the ponies affect the result upon their use. It's my thought that perhaps celestia banished luna because she was either panicked, desperate, or inexperienced (it seems like nightmare moon rose rather early in their reign), and did not stop to think that maybe she can be saved. Whereas twilight seems to have wanted to help luna, and thus reverted her back to good instead of banishing her. Of course I could be completely wrong.

Also, I wonder if ponies are the only group that can use the elements? If so, does that mean they're some sort of ancient pony artifact?

[elsporko]

Looks like I need to do some basic research when trying to talk instead of going off of memory.

Although if Celestia could use the elements by herself why did she leave them in the castle instead of continuing to use them? Maybe the elements need multiple users to be powerful so she couldn't wield them effectively by herself. Six ponies to draw the power from made them powerful enough to help Luna rather then banish her

[starswirlthebearded]

Looks like I need to do some basic research when trying to talk instead of going off of memory.

Although if Celestia could use the elements by herself why did she leave them in the castle instead of continuing to use them? Maybe the elements need multiple users to be powerful so she couldn't wield them effectively by herself. Six ponies to draw the power from made them powerful enough to help Luna rather then banish her

Here is what I thought... Luna and Celestia wielded them together. It was their mutual friendship that allowed them to be used to their full effect against Discord. When Celestia used them against her sister the friendship was weakened, but since it was still there she was able to use them. However, since her sister wasn't with her and her friendship (remember the 6th element is the MAGIC of FRIENDSHIP) she wasn't able to use the full potential which would have actually restored harmony, which is to say purify Luna. So instead harmony was given a stay by banishing the evil to the Moon. Basically the EoH made it so that new wielders could be found by Celestia that would be able to make the connection and properly wield them. Which is why Celestia said that the reason Discord escaped is because her and Luna's connection to the EoH were broken.

So basically to sum up the EoH have requirements for use...

1) Friendship... This is the main one, without it, they are useless. This is proven in Return to Harmony. Discord destroyed the Mane 6 friendship, Twilight still had hope which is why the reaction started, but none of the others did, which is why it ultimately didn't work. Had it been the situation like Celestia and Luna, I could easily see Twilight using them.

2) Representing the elements within yourself. Celestia and Luna represent pretty much all that is good. Either one can represent any of the elements. It is possible that the elements work BETTER when an individual represents the singular element over multiple.

3) ??? (I like the look of 3... I think there is probably something I'm missing)

Profit (sorry I had to after 3... >_>)

But back on topic. The elements are a MacGuffin. Their intent varies. Likely their power is limitless based on the needs of the show. I kind of hope they don't use them often. I liked that they used a completely different trope in the Season 2 finale. But it does seem the creators dropped hints to as why Celestia could only banish instead of purify, why Twilight before realizing her connection and friendship with the rest of the Mane 6 could not use the elements despite having the magical power to create a "spark", and why Discord was set free.

Of course we are dealing with things that are MacGuffins so I'm basically talking nonsense that makes sense to me and I could be entirely and completely wrong about everything. WE MUST CONSULT WITH FAUST ON THE DAY OF JUNE 30!

[Solaria]

Here is what I thought... Luna and Celestia wielded them together. It was their mutual friendship that allowed them to be used to their full effect against Discord. When Celestia used them against her sister the friendship was weakened, but since it was still there she was able to use them. However, since her sister wasn't with her and her friendship (remember the 6th element is the MAGIC of FRIENDSHIP) she wasn't able to use the full potential which would have actually restored harmony, which is to say purify Luna. So instead harmony was given a stay by banishing the evil to the Moon. Basically the EoH made it so that new wielders could be found by Celestia that would be able to make the connection and properly wield them. Which is why Celestia said that the reason Discord escaped is because her and Luna's connection to the EoH were broken.

So basically to sum up the EoH have requirements for use...

1) Friendship... This is the main one, without it, they are useless. This is proven in Return to Harmony. Discord destroyed the Mane 6 friendship, Twilight still had hope which is why the reaction started, but none of the others did, which is why it ultimately didn't work. Had it been the situation like Celestia and Luna, I could easily see Twilight using them.

2) Representing the elements within yourself. Celestia and Luna represent pretty much all that is good. Either one can represent any of the elements. It is possible that the elements work BETTER when an individual represents the singular element over multiple.

3) ??? (I like the look of 3... I think there is probably something I'm missing)

Profit (sorry I had to after 3... >_>)

But back on topic. The elements are a MacGuffin. Their intent varies. Likely their power is limitless based on the needs of the show. I kind of hope they don't use them often. I liked that they used a completely different trope in the Season 2 finale. But it does seem the creators dropped hints to as why Celestia could only banish instead of purify, why Twilight before realizing her connection and friendship with the rest of the Mane 6 could not use the elements despite having the magical power to create a "spark", and why Discord was set free.

Of course we are dealing with things that are MacGuffins so I'm basically talking nonsense that makes sense to me and I could be entirely and completely wrong about everything. WE MUST CONSULT WITH FAUST ON THE DAY OF JUNE 30!

That would be an interesting day. Demand that she explain artifacts that likely were brought into existence to be a ponified Voltron's Blazing Sword super weapon. This thought naturally leads to me forming a hilarious mental image of the Mane 6 calling out their elements a la Voltron's formation sequence. Twilight: "And I'll form the magic! Equestria Force, go!"

Then of course I'd have fun with Mrs. Faust. "Are they sentient? Why can they shape change? Does the element pick the pony or does the pony pick the element? WAI RANEBOWZ?!"

After that completely pointless tangent, I wonder if Luna or Celestia could still utilize the Elements in a pinch. I still think they embody the various aspects, as Starry said, but does each individual element only work for one pony at a time? Would the princesses then need to re-bond with the elements by breaking their current ties, similar to what the Mane 6 did?

[MyLittlePonyTales]

WAI RANEBOWZ?!"

Probably a generation 1 reference from the first movie Rescue From Midnight Castle.

[Lux]

I agree that the jewelry is not the Elements, or it could be a catalyst (like the rings from Captain Planet).

The Elements are within the ponies. It seemes Celestia was able to use it to defeat Discord and Nightmare Moon the first time. Perhaps she was able to only banish Luna/NMM because the two shared the elements. This could be why Celestia said that she was able to earlier wield the Elements, but could not now, making Twilight and co. have to use them to defeat NMM and Discord a second time. Celestia uring the 1,000 years must have been looking for new candidates for the Elements.

The Elements are MacGuffins or the fantasy element of the Magical Artifact. The effects vary, but mostly they are used to restore harmony. This means turning Discord into stone, banishing NMM, etc. I bearer of the Element can't decide on the effcets, but the overall result of restoring harmony is the same. Note that being a kid's show, the Elements don't kill a vilian unlike adult fantasy.

As for Chrysalis, the Elements would probably stop the Changelings from syphoning love, possibly doing the same thing as Cadence/ Shining Armor's love spell by blasting them away from Equestria.

As for requirements... its like the title says: Friendship is Magic.

The bearers need to represent their respective element and need to be friends or at least harmonious with each other. The Element of magic is probably the most powerful, but like in Return of Harmony, without the others, it fails.

I hope that there are more ways to defeat evil, but at the same time I don't think the Elements are being overused (after all they were in 4 of 52 episodes.)

[Solaria]

I agree that the jewelry is not the Elements, or it could be a catalyst (like the rings from Captain Planet).

Argh, I now not only do I relate them to Voltron, but to Captain Planet, and every other inspiring superhero cartoon series I've ever watched. Loyalty! Honesty! Laughter! Kindness! Generosity! Magic! By your powers combined, I am Captain Celestia!

Although as I was wondering before, what defines the state of "harmony" in Equestria? The current status quo? If that would true, wouldn't that be somewhat of a step toward stagnation, in that the status of Equestria is restored each time to what we see for the majority of the show? Or instead, since they're used sparingly, do the Elements somehow detect what the current state of harmony was just before the crisis that warranted their use in that particular instance? Then again, I think that thought is somewhat shaky because while the overwhelming majority may think everything is just fine with the way things are, who's to say that dragons/griffins/donkeys think it's fair? In that case it would almost be like the Elements served the dominant power's ideal of harmony. It would be really interesting to see them have an unexpected result in the pursuit of true, unbiased harmony, perhaps an upset to the order that everything in the show has come to accept. I'm not saying that isn't what's happened before, I just think it would be a rather fun turn on what the Elements actually do.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

During "Return of Harmony Part 1," Celestia implied that she was unable to unlock their full potential. So I imagine that she was able to use some portion of their magic, but not enough to get the best ending, like Twilight was.

The Elements of Harmony most certainly don't uphold the status quo. They brought Luna back and radically altered the rule of Equestria from the way it had been for the last 1000 years. Luna may not show up much, but she is very much a Princess with authority. (She very nearly canceled nightmare night, and nopony suggested that it was not within her power to do so.)

Harmony is about friendship, honesty, loyalty, laughter, generosity and kindness. Those are the values that it upholds. Politics are mostly outside its jurisdiction, except in cases where politics might be dishonest, disloyal, cruel, etc.

Eternal Night would kill every living thing, and that is definitely not kind. Eternal Chaos was definitely cruel. Tricking ponies and stealing their love in order to gain dominion over them is dishonest, selfish, and just plain mean.

[Solaria]

True, but referencing back to your claim that harmony is a balance of consonance over dissonance, rather than just plain consonance, it would seem that in an expanded view the Elements hold the scales between the ponies and generally "good" races and the other darker forces, such as the threat the changelings represented (even though I'm not sure they're part of Equestria in the first place). While Nightmare Moon and Discord were definitely evilish, were the changelings really so terrible as to be put in the same boat? It's their nature to feed the way they do, and while it may seem mean etc. from the viewpoint of say a pony, they've also never experienced whatever it is that drives the changelings in the first place. It's the whole argument about whether natural instincts can be evil or whatnot. Do the Elements then uphold harmony by pony standards, or true, austere harmony?