S03 E05: "Magic Duel"

[flutterscotch]

Those are pretty much my thoughts. Trixie is pompous, arrogant and not above deception, but I don't think this manner of cruelty is in her normally. The amulet pushed her past where she would normally go. Once she was back to normal, she realized it all and saw the need to apologize for taking things too far.

She is after all, very humble..

[TotalEcplise]

Best line came from Snips and Snails in my opinion.

"I preferred it when she was just a fraud."

[P51Mustang]

Best line came from Snips and Snail in my opinion.

"I preferred it when she was just a fraud."

That line did make me laugh.

[EquestriaForever]

Hello.

My two cents on the magic duel are these.

I LOVED Fluttershy being super-nervous about Twilight's tricks with her animals while her animals were okey-dokey with it.

I have mixed feelings about an artifact of that power, the Alicorn Amulet, having been in a shop, rather than in a vault, or something heavily guarded. Seems like something that dangerous would have been kept more secure. I do however notice, and appreciate, the word Alicorn being finally spoken in the show. The reason the feelings are mixed, is because I kind of liked how cautious the shopkeeper was until money was involved... that was funny.

I loved Pinkie Pie's rock-farmer past being brought up and her being offended at Trixie being insulted at having had to work at one, and I felt very sorry for Pinkie Pie throughout the whole episode... until she got her mouth back and was about to speak right before they cut out... Heheheh...

The actual magic duels were pretty impressive, and the trickery I appreciated later because I did NOT see it coming. I totally expected them to pull out the Elements of Harmony to overpower Trixie. Only later did I remember that they don't actually have them with them and that they're in Canterlot... kind of a face-palm moment for me. However I liked how they handled Trixie with cooperation and intelligence instead of brute force, very well done.

Zecora is now even more awesome than her previous high levels of awesomeness. I don't know if what she did with that cup was a magician's trick or legitimate magic. Either way, the subtle nature of it, how she just used her power to refill a cup, and nothing else, how she spoke about focus and meditation, the understated and calm way she taught Twilight... She was super-awesome. Teaching how to think, focus, and control, instead of focusing on power.

And finally Trixie at the end... I had mixed feelings about it. Her apology wasn't quite... right with me. Then she boasted about how humble she was, and that did it for me. I think that she probably realized that even she had gone too far, that instead of just being the best she'd become a tyrant... An egotistical blowhard she was, but not a sadistic overlord... And I also like how Twilight took a few moments before forgiving her... Must be hard to forgive someone who caused you so much grief.

[starswirlthebearded]

I can't say anything that hasn't already been said. The combination between Trixie and Twilight was perfect. The moral was nice and not so heavy handed. And it was overall well played out.

Granted I may be a bit biased...

This is so far my favorite episode of the season.

I am wondering though... Twilight is considered to be the premier unicorn (normal) I'm wondering if she has the potential to do some of those advanced spells in the future. We know she has the raw power (she had it as a filly). Perhaps she just needs to unlock it or learn to utilize it.

Though, I am happy that she DIDN'T take care of it with raw power. It made the episode better imho.

PS: Oh and Zecora was totally awesome too. She definitely helped make the episode. Glad to see her get more screen time.

And I'm sorry to all the RP Help Staff... Apparently there are other amulets, with the Alicorn amulet being one of the most powerful and dangerous (luckily that one will be locked away)

[HarringtonSleuth]

I just remembered something. Anyone notice the resemblance between what Trixie did to Rainbow Dash and a certain Final Fantasy antagonist?

[RarityDash]

And I'm sorry to all the RP Help Staff... Apparently there are other amulets, with the Alicorn amulet being one of the most powerful and dangerous (luckily that one will be locked away)

We're already definitely discussing this.

I wouldn't expect being allowed to give your OC all sorts of awesome magic powered amulets anytime soon though. Far too easy to exploit.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Its a magical world, I'd be surprised if there weren't lots of different magical things, both big and small scattered about. A little creativity can go a long way, even if its just simple tricks and nonsense.

Just look at what Twilight was able to do with some pink smoke and a little bit of paint.

[starswirlthebearded]

We're already definitely discussing this.

I wouldn't expect being allowed to give your OC all sorts of awesome magic powered amulets anytime soon though. Far too easy to exploit.

Wasn't planning on it... Would be too boring. Besides, I'd assume that other magical items would also have side effects, much like most magical artifacts in cinema and literature. Great power always comes at a price.

hi hi

Its a magical world, I'd be surprised if there weren't lots of different magical things, both big and small scattered about. A little creativity can go a long way, even if its just simple tricks and nonsense.

Just look at what Twilight was able to do with some pink smoke and a little bit of paint.

Totally not what I meant. For a while the Mane RP disallowed any magical enhancing artifact, expressly because it wasn't seen in the show, or mentioned as part of show canon aside from the EoH. The fact that it has now been confirmed, and the limits of the most powerful non-EoH artifact has been seen along with its side effects, opens up a whole new door for RPing.

But yes, I always believed creativity goes a long way, which is why both my unicorns, while being knowledgeable in the magical arts, are noted as being creative above all else with their magic and what they can think up, being their greatest magical strength. Raw magical power, nay, raw power in general, is a poor substitute for creativity and a sharp mind. Albert Einstein himself said "Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution." And that is an important lesson, and I'm happy that this episode touched on it.

[elsporko]

Great episode. I loved it. The nods to past episodes were great

[Bellosh]

We're already definitely discussing this.

I wouldn't expect being allowed to give your OC all sorts of awesome magic powered amulets anytime soon though. Far too easy to exploit.

I definitely don't think that RPers should be allowed to declare in character apps that their OCs possess magic artifacts. At the very least, they should be required to go through the trouble of acquiring such objects by RPing.

[HopeFox]

I did enjoy this episode, but there were a few things that didn't quite sit right with me.

For a start, as others have said, it felt rushed. There were a lot of really good moments in it, and it wouldn't have felt at all out of place in a different show, but... friendship. It really, really needed a Letter to Celestia at the end, more than other episodes, and the lack was noticeable. I could figure out a few lessons from it - friendship is more important than power, and holding grudges is stupid - but I think a bit more time could have been spent on the lesson. I think a little more time could have been spent on Trixie and Twilight's conversation at the end, too. In general, less magic, more friendship.

Also, Fluttershy exhibited more fear and timidity in this episode than she's had in recent episodes, and it felt a bit forced.

The rest was great, though. The Alicorn Amulet is an interesting bit of world-building, and I can't help but wonder if King Sombra had a hoof in creating it. Also, if it really does draw on the power of alicorns, then surely it would be able to amplify the magic of the other tribes. What would it do to Rainbow Dash's pegasus magic? Or Applejack's earth magic? (Answer: nothing, because they're both way too sensible to put the darn thing on. Also note how the possibility of using the amulet herself never even briefly occurs to Twilight.)

I disagree with the idea that Trixie would have been ruined by her first confrontation with Twilight Sparkle, but it's canon now, so I can run with it. I suspect that Trixie could have made a decent career out of being an actually entertaining showpony rather than an arrogant fraudster, but she would have had to swallow a lot of pride in order to do so. Trixie working on the Pie rock farm was hilarious, and means that rock farming is definitely canon now, not just one of Pinkie's oddities. I'm not sure where Trixie got the money to buy the Alicorn Amulet if she was reduced to being a hired farmhoof, though.

The Saddle Arabian ambassadors are interesting. They look awfully big - almost as tall as Princess Celestia. I wonder if they're on a similar cosmic level to her, or if Arabian ponies are just naturally taller? When I saw them in a preview, I thought there was something Middle Eastern about their attire. The existence of "ambassadors" implies that they're from a separate nation, which is very interesting - everything we've seen so far suggests that Equestria is the only pony country. Maybe it is, and Saddle Arabia is a sort of vassal state.

Focusing on Twilight's improvement in her magic is always good, since that's supposed to be the big story arc of this season. I thought juggling small animals was a bit of a step down from pacifying an Ursa Minor, though - we've definitely seen her do more impressive things. The level of control required to keep the animals safe may have been the point here.

And Zecora was awesome. I'm not sure why Twilight hasn't been taking more lessons from her already. The Star Wars references were obvious, but I don't think they were out of place.

All in all... yeah, some things didn't sit right with me, but it was a fun episode. I suspect the writers really enjoyed being able to make Trixie into an over-the-top villain without actually making her truly evil.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Oh, mane RP. Why you so silly sometimes? Other than the Elements of Harmony, there's been a number of magic enhancing things in the show prior to this episode. You've got other individuals who can enhance magic (Canterlot Wedding, Cutie Mark Chronicles), you've got artifacts that can replicate individual talents (Look Before you Sleep, Crystal Empire), plants that magically improve talent with occasional consequences (Cutie Pox), and artifacts that are enhanced by magic (Best Night Ever, Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000). I guess I better stop here before I dig myself an early grave.

Fluttershy seemed about as timid as she does around dragons, so maybe it would have been nice to have her mention exactly why she was so afraid rather than implying it, but I did like how her friends didn't have to try too hard to get her to go along with the plan. They just smiled and gave her the opportunity to join up on her own, and it made me smile when she put her hoof in.

I was guessing that the delegates from Saddle Arabia were actually horses, not ponies. We've heard lots of references to horses existing in the past, so I think it'd be nice to actually see some that weren't mice originally.

[starswirlthebearded]

None of those were really magic enhancing artifacts. They were artifacts with magical properties or portions or things that could be interpreted entirely different. And I really don't recall a magical artifact in look before you sleep (it has been a while since i saw it though)... but the crystal heart wasn't a magic enhancing artifact like the elements of harmony or the alicorn amulet. It took the good will of the people to create a magical barrier. And as for individuals enhancing abilities, I'm not even sure about. That seemed to me to be less individuals enhancing ability as the feeling of love giving the individual strength. But that is just my interpretation.

Point being that no other artifact other than the elements of harmony were of the magic enhancing sort until the alicorn amulet. The fact that they mentioned others opens a new for for role play.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

None of those artifacts may have been in and of itself a specifically magic enhancing artifact, but its just a matter of employing basic logic. If I'm not mistaken, syllogisms are valid logical constructs.

a: Artifacts can mimic magic.

b: Magic can enhance the magic of others.

c: Artifacts can enhance the magic of others.

If a then b, if b then c, therefore if a then c.

The Crystal Heart was powered by the spirit of the people, however, the effect that it produced was something that the spirit of the people could not have produced without it. Furthermore, the Crystal Heart almost exactly mimicked the protective magic that Princess Cadence was using, and was only powered up once for an entire year before they needed to have another crystal fair. So there was an indeterminate period of time in which it could produce a magic effect without constant input. Princess Cadence's magic enhanced Shining Armor's ability in Canterlot Wedding, and Twilight specifically says that it is Cadence's spell.

In look before you sleep, Twilight Sparkle had a magical lightning rod to protect her tree house from lightning, mimicking some of the weather control abilities of a pegasus. Additionally, in Cutie Mark chronicles, Rainbow Dash's sonic rainboom was explicitly not unicorn magic, and at the time Rainbow Dash was not friends with any of the mane six except possibly Fluttershy, but it inspired everyone to get their cutie marks and improved Twilight's magic performance.

(The alicorn amulet is even consistent with this, because it also conveys an emotion onto the user.)

[starswirlthebearded]

None of those things are magical enhancement artifacts like elements of harmony or alicorn amulet. As for sonic rain boom, that didn't enhance magic. It surprised twilight into losing control of her own magic. That was all her releasing her own raw power. That event didn't affect anyone magically. It inspired or surprised them. Or in rarity's case produced enough force to split stone.

And that lightning rod would fall under object with magical properties. No one denied the presence of magical artifacts in general, just magic enhancing ones, thinking that the elements of harmony were the only ones. Now that we know that isn't the case it is possible for them to appear in mane rp. However they can easily be abused, which is why the help staff are discussing it and why that lore will take a while to be implemented. Probably longer than crystal ponies.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Well, the mane RP can do whatever it wants, no argument here. I'm just using what I see to infer things about the magical land of Equestria. There's lots of different types of magic besides just unicorn magic, like Hearts Desire, which not only was a crucial ingredient in giving Applebloom lots of special talents, but it also bolstered a rooster's heart. (magically I might add)

Someone's emotional state has a clear effect on their magic, and Discord showed us how magic can effect someone's emotional state. So its really just a matter of putting two and two together. Seems to me like the cruelty involved with the alicorn amulet might have been an integral part of the desire for power, and the ability to reach that power.

[Bellosh]

Sidetracking for a bit, I'm somewhat surprised that John Dalberg-Acton's "absolute power corrupts absolutely" quote didn't get referenced in this episode, seeing how the Alicorn Amulet with its absolute power absolutely corrupted Trixie.

[brianblackberry]

I definitely don't think that RPers should be allowed to declare in character apps that their OCs possess magic artifacts. At the very least, they should be required to go through the trouble of acquiring such objects by RPing.

I am sure that is alright, especially given how many "search for magic ancient item" type adventures there are in mane RpP right now, (heck I am three of them myself). The worry is people Mary Suing with them and power-gaming (my character starts with a necklace that allows me to teleport anywhere, suspend time, and fly!). The trick is to allow as much freedom as possible while also minimizing abuse that would be a major drag on other players, and how to do this without having to run around and watch every thread, (no one here wants to micromanage, this is supposed to be fun ).

[NoGiantRobots1983]

So after giving it a night... here's my thoughts.

This episode was okay. Not bad, but not great.

The opening gets points for reminding me of Team Ranma vs The Legendary Phoenix, but past that it was the standard storyline of "Villain challenges hero to duel, with the loser being forced to leave. Hero loses. Hero finds out villain was cheating. Hero bounces back, reclaims her place and all is well." It's an inherently tired cartoon storyline, which has been used as far back as 1969's Space Ghost.

What keeps this episode from being just outright bad, to me, is the following:

* Trixie is not evil, just corrupted by the amulet. I honestly always thought that if Trixie returned, she'd be outright evil, and I am pleasantly surprised that she isn't.

* Twilight's way of resolving the situation was actually quite clever.

* TICKLISH AJ! TICKLISH RAINBOW DASH!

* And now I want to hug Fluttershy.

So... not a bad episode (certainly nowhere near as detestable as "One Bad Apple"), but its nowhere near as good as greats like "The Best Night Ever."

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Trixie wasn't cheating in this episode. Using other things was explicitly part of the magic duel. Twilight Sparkle used her friends, they both used random bystanders. When Twilight Sparkle accuses Trixie of cheating, Twilight was baiting her.

Space Ghost was hardly the first story to ever use a 5 act play structure. It worked for Shakespeare, it worked for Quintus Horatius Flaccus, it can work for ponies as far as I'm concerned.

• Act 1 - Exposition: The shopkeeper explains the basic themes of the episode, power, danger and by blithely accepting the money, corruption as well.

• Act 2 - Complications: Twilight is introduced, Trixie's nemesis for the story. We're shown that she is a powerful magician. And we get a glimpse of all the horrible things Trixie can do.

• Act 3 - Climatic Action: The first magic duel is the scene with the most dramatic tension in the episode. The audience really has no way of knowing what the outcome will be.

• Act 4 - Falling Action and Reversals: The consequences of the first magic duel are played out, we see how bad things in Ponyville become, momentum slows while Twilight studies, and the tension is heightened by false hopes and fears. For Trixie, it seems that all has been won, and for Twilight, all is lost.

• Act 5 - Resolution: The conflict is resolved, Trixie meets her downfall as a result of the actions that took place in act 4, and both Twilight and Trixie reveal that they have been transformed by the events.

[NoGiantRobots1983]

Space Ghost was hardly the first story to ever use a 5 act play structure.

Errr... I was talking about the story itself, not the structure.

[Boss_Hoss1]

Makes you wonder where the amulet came from and who created it; (also where did Trixie get all those bits!).

It definitely seems to be an artifact that would take an alicorn to create. And the colour scheme, black with red trim, would seem to mean there is at least one or more alicorns in Ancient history other than the expected parents of the Princesses.

Anypony think it would hail from the Age of Chaos at the least?

[Parker_Izing]

perhaps trixie would be MLP's Sideshow Bob, coming periodically on each season with a hare brained idea to defeat Twilight, failing miserably and running on darkness every time...

Oh, talking of Time, two Dr Hooves...

[Ironkau]

perhaps trixie would be MLP's Sideshow Bob, coming periodically on each season with a hare brained idea to defeat Twilight, failing miserably and running on darkness every time...

Oh, talking of Time, two Dr Hooves...

Yes, they seem to be duplicating the doc a lot this episode.

I also liked the part in which Lyra was casually drinking soda, acting like she was watching a tiger maiming performance, while watching the second duel that would decide the fate of Ponyville,