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S03 E10 - "Keep Calm and Flutter On"


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Basically what ShadowMage said.

I believe Discord never truly was evil, he was just a smiling troublemaker (In contrast to other villains like Queen Chystalis, who had an agenda to seize power). He needed to LEARN, much like how a misbehaving child must LEARN how to act appropriately. Clearly, he understandably had a lack of empathy before having a friend, but when he gained one, (and note, he only had one) he initially didn't care about Fluttershy leaving him. but she was his only friend EVER, So it obviously felt like a knife to the heart when she said that she wasn't his fiend anymore. Anyway, Discord hasn't really been reformed either, he still stated that he preferred Ponyville 'his way', and promised Celestia to use his magic for good 'most of the time'.

Celestia leaving made sense, It was designed to test the mane six (and Fluttershy in particular). Still comes across that she is a troll though xD

The episode outstanding overall, I think they could of expanded on the story and gave it much more time to develop over 2 episodes, but time management wise? I think they did a brilliant job pacing it out. Leaving Discord's 'reformation' till the end of the episode was a good idea. It imprinted the fact that... you know? It is hard to make an ancient god of chaos to change his ways. Animation was impressive as always, especially when Fluttershy's cottage was being rotated by Discord.

Best episode in the season? Definitely!

Best episode ever?.... Maybe... Just maybe.

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Wonderful!

Is this the FIRST time that Twilight was angry with Celestia IN HER PRESENCE?! I've been waiting for moments like this since I first realized how much Celestia wants to be Twilight's friend, white Twilight continually puts Celestia at a distance and treats her as unapproachable. She backpedals immediately, which is reasonable considering that it is consistent with her Character, and the fact that they are in a public place. I hope this is the start of a closer relationship.

At first Celestia leaving before they broke him out shocked me...but it was perfect!

By leaving, she was showing that 1) she did indeed have complete trust in them and 2) she did not want them to lean on her and 3) she knew her presence would have warped any chance at developing a friendship

And that is not where remarkable trust ended!

Fluttershy was outstanding, and realized that friendship can't be based on coercion, and set out to give him the chance to prove himself, and trusted him to do the right thing when she gave up the willingness to use her element. By giving the ponies the elements, Celestia set up Fluttershy to give up the physical power she had over Discord as an act of trust. As long as all of them were ready to just give up on him and turn him to stone, Discord could never feel like a peer.

My favorite pet was back and in rare form! An Angel Bunny mime!

As for the "reforming spells," I didn't want to touch on this because I was afraid I would end up sounding like a big stick in the mud, but since other people are pointing it out too, I should say my part. The writers of this show have been walking an increasingly disturbing line since the end of Season 2. While I think its fine to have characters mess things up and learn their lesson, it becomes problematic when the characters don't learn their lesson, especially when those characters are authority figures in a children's show.

• Cadence's love spell manipulating the emotions of otherwise free-thinking individuals.

• Princess Celestia betting the lives of the Crystal Ponies by having Twilight go without help.

• Twilight Sparkle killing Pinkie Pie's clones.

• Twilight encouraging Spike's unhealthy dependancy issues.

• Celestia treating Discord as an object with which to cast spells, rather than a sentient being.

• Twilight Sparkle trying to find and cast a reforming spell.

I wish that I had something to say about all those that would make us more comfortable.

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I didn't know why the story worked, I just knew that it did. Now I know why it did. I was scared stiff that it would ruin Discord as a character, but instead it added new dimensions. Not that there weren't problems, like the pacing, and the initial premise, but if you're willing to overlook that, it does work. Also, I don't think the other poneis turned into one dimensional jerks who were OOC, they were just scared of what could happen if Discord did trick them. Certainly they were nowhere near as bad as Dash in Mare Do Well, or Twilgiht in Feeling Pinkie Keen. Those were one dimensional portrayals, or should I say betrayals of the ponies' character traits.

As too the problems Ginger Mint raised:

Cadence I can justify in that she can only awaken love where it already existed, not impose it where it didn't, effectvely making it a super reminder spell like Twilight used in Return of Harmony, but with emotions rather than memories.

Pinkie Pie's clones weren't thinking beings, they were just echoes, mirror images who only reflected the one part of her personality that was at the fore when she made them, having fun with her friends. They acted alive, but they were purely reactive, couldn't learn, couldn't grow, couldn't change.

The others i have no answer for, though I'll have to go back and see if that's what Celestia really said about Discord, or if there was another way to interpret it.

There was no justification for making the Crystal Empire thing a personal test for Twilight, other than to set up the conflict about having Spike help her. It's pure artificial difficulty, and doesn't play well.

I do remember Rescue Rangers, it was one of my favourite series, (just look at my fanfiction net page) and i can concur that they sometimes did exactly that. I always felt sorry for Chip, Dale gets a free pass so often while Chip does all the work and then gets made out to be the bad guy when he calls Dale on it.

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A lot of people have said that the episode felt rushed, and initially I agreed. Within 20 minutes, Discord goes from an amazing (or terrible) villain, to a "good guy." The premise is nigh-impossible to believe, and many felt it should have been a two-part episode as such. After watching it for the second time though, I feel that, like season 3 opener, the obvious point was not actually the message the writers were trying to convey.

I feel as though instead of turning Discord from Good to Evil, instead they (read: Fluttershy) taught Discord compassion. Previously, Discord was a character who had the powers to do what he wanted, when he wanted. Did he conquer Equestria and make his own empire? Did he amass any sort of fortune or fame? What he did was have fun. Looking at his character, I would say it was easy to see him as a very young child. He did that which amused him, not so much ignoring or reveling the suffering of others, but being oblivious to it. Granted, turning the Mane 6 grey was a pretty dang evil thing, but that could be written of as a form of self defense; they were trying to "hurt" him, so he hurt them first. Still a very childish method.

In Keep Calm and Flutter On, Discord started off in an identical form, though with a proverbial gun to his head: if he misbehaves, he goes back to being imprisoned. What Fluttershy did was to take away this threatening situation, temporarily at first by letting Discord make himself at him inside her cottage, and then more permanently when she promised not to use her Element against him. She treated him with patience and tolerance, asking things of him rather demanding. Once she called Discord her friend at the dinner party, he realized how differently she had been treating him. At Sweet Apple Acres, when Discord froze the water, he was thinking only of only the fun that could be had and not the disruption it would cause to those around him, something that would be considered 'childish' by almost anyone. I feel an impossibly important and subtle note was that when he offered Fluttershy the skates, he did it as an activity two friends could do together to have fun. When he finally realized how his actions upset Fluttershy, and finally realized how he was about to lose his only friend, Discord gained the understanding of compassion and empathy. Discord was able to see how his shenanigans directly affected the ponies around him.

In this way, I feel Discord did not turn from evil to good. I would not even say that Discord was ever truly evil, simply immature and unable to truly grasp the impact of his actions. A child does what it does because it is fun for whatever reason. Once you teach a child to think about how his/her actions and how they will affect others, that child is more likely to act restrained and more composed. Discord is still the same chaos-loving draconequus that he will always be, but I feel as though draconequus, like ponies and people, are social creatures that seek the acceptance of their peers.

Very calm and well reasoned analysis. You not only managed to grasp the idea that Discord isn't evil but chaotic (something most people don't seem to get), but you also managed to give a pretty good explanation for why Fluttershy's strategy for converting Discord worked. You managed to dispel all my doubts about this episode.

A+ post.

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As for the "reforming spells," I didn't want to touch on this because I was afraid I would end up sounding like a big stick in the mud, but since other people are pointing it out too, I should say my part. The writers of this show have been walking an increasingly disturbing line since the end of Season 2. While I think its fine to have characters mess things up and learn their lesson, it becomes problematic when the characters don't learn their lesson, especially when those characters are authority figures in a children's show.

I agree that it is important that a children's show should reinforce good values, but I think it's also important to point out that FiM is a cartoon designed for entertainment and a message. The message is not the primary focus of the episode. It's the destination. If the writers spent time exploring the moral ins and out of every character choice, it would a boring cartoon make. I think of it like junk food with a side of broccoli, which is part of its appeal to an audience outside of youngsters. The writers carry a creative burden to make the episode fun to watch, and to leave a message to children and parents that is easy to understand and immediately relate-able to the watcher. Character faults make characters interesting, and it's the fact they don't learn the lessons and grow over time that gives complexity and respect to the character. Humans learn and think the same way. Obviously some people don't learn the first, second, or third time. Some don't learn at all, and continue to reinforce their negative behaviors and choices for whatever reason.

• Cadence's love spell manipulating the emotions of otherwise free-thinking individuals.

I think we're kind of jumping the shark on this one. There's nothing to suggest what kind of magic she used, or what thought process was going on for either pony in this scene.

• Princess Celestia betting the lives of the Crystal Ponies by having Twilight go without help.

She certainly did have help! There was also nothing to suggest that the Crystal Ponies' lives were ever in danger; they were in danger of enslavement again from a foe long past. There was a lot about this episode that didn't seem to connect, and I hope it will get some form of continuity in the future.

• Twilight Sparkle killing Pinkie Pie's clones.

There was nothing to suggest these clones were alive, or even sentient. They came out of a magic pond, and were banished magically just as easily. If they were alive, don't you think some of the Pinkies sitting in the room would have reacted out of self-preservation when the first one got zapped?

• Twilight encouraging Spike's unhealthy dependency issues.

We see a lot of this throughout the series, and it adds interest to the character. I don't think a child watching this would naturally react (or even be in the same situation) as Spike is with his relationship to Twilight. I'm sure some of this could translate to a child, but I think they're more happy just watching the fun, colourful cartoon with amazing characters.

• Celestia treating Discord as an object with which to cast spells, rather than a sentient being.

This behavior is nothing new. Remember what happened to Luna? I'm sure a lot of Discord's behavior is in reaction to being objectified.There's more subplot going on with this tidbit too, which is why we'll have to wait and see what happens with any continuity. Also consider the alternative: he was imprisoned in stone, and he wasn't unconscious. Leaving him immobile would have been cruel; Celestia was trying to find purpose for Discord so he didn't have to suffer that fate, even if that meant objectifying him for a more important purpose. Celestia is not a bastion of purity. She's a leader that cares very much for her subjects, and she will protect them at any cost she is personally willing to make. Objectifying troublesome draconequi seems a small price to pay to do this.

• Twilight Sparkle trying to find and cast a reforming spell.

This is back to the Cadance and love magic thing. We really have no idea how magic works in Equestria, or how it would affect thought process, as it's a cartoon.

Some of these things I just cant explain away, and believe me, I've tried to find a way. Generally, such methods are considered to be corrupt and immoral. If someone is dangerous to society, then society has some rights to lock them away for safekeeping, but such a society still has a responsibility to maintain some very basic rights for those imprisoned. (Once upon a time, I dared to think that it was only in the darkest recesses of authoritarian hearts that dreamed of brainwashing others into obedience.)

That being said, if the ending had acknowledged how Celestia and Twilight had been wrong, I think this episode could have been truly phenomenal, in terms of the moral of the story. (It might have been better if Celestia had just not opened her mouth at all, and left her reasoning unexplained.)

Twilight and company try to reform Discord the wrong way throughout the entire episode, and that turns out to be an excellent contrast to Fluttershy's methods. By doing it the wrong way, they help emphasize what is right about Fluttershy's methods. In many places, contractual agreements are considered null and void if the person who signed the agreement was forced to do so under duress. Telling Discord that he had to behave or else they would zap him again would not have produced any kind of meaningful agreement at all.

This is one of the fundamental flaws in authoritarianism that is being put on display for everyone to see, and so the only real downside is that the ending didn't make that more clear.

Yes, I agree with the above. I also must impress that children think differently than adults, and the moral wholesomeness of an episode should not be the only thing one considers if an episode good or not. I would consider the episode for what it was designed to be, and judge it based on numerous factors, including story, characterization and interactions, flow, animation, music and sound, and the final, take-home message once the curtain is drawn.

Also ponies were eating gravy out of a gravy boat. What is gravy made out of, huh? :mad:

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A lot of people have said that the episode felt rushed, and initially I agreed. Within 20 minutes, Discord goes from an amazing (or terrible) villain, to a "good guy." The premise is nigh-impossible to believe, and many felt it should have been a two-part episode as such. After watching it for the second time though, I feel that, like season 3 opener, the obvious point was not actually the message the writers were trying to convey.

I feel as though instead of turning Discord from Good to Evil, instead they (read: Fluttershy) taught Discord compassion. Previously, Discord was a character who had the powers to do what he wanted, when he wanted. Did he conquer Equestria and make his own empire? Did he amass any sort of fortune or fame? What he did was have fun. Looking at his character, I would say it was easy to see him as a very young child. He did that which amused him, not so much ignoring or reveling the suffering of others, but being oblivious to it. Granted, turning the Mane 6 grey was a pretty dang evil thing, but that could be written of as a form of self defense; they were trying to "hurt" him, so he hurt them first. Still a very childish method.

In Keep Calm and Flutter On, Discord started off in an identical form, though with a proverbial gun to his head: if he misbehaves, he goes back to being imprisoned. What Fluttershy did was to take away this threatening situation, temporarily at first by letting Discord make himself at him inside her cottage, and then more permanently when she promised not to use her Element against him. She treated him with patience and tolerance, asking things of him rather demanding. Once she called Discord her friend at the dinner party, he realized how differently she had been treating him. At Sweet Apple Acres, when Discord froze the water, he was thinking only of only the fun that could be had and not the disruption it would cause to those around him, something that would be considered 'childish' by almost anyone. I feel an impossibly important and subtle note was that when he offered Fluttershy the skates, he did it as an activity two friends could do together to have fun. When he finally realized how his actions upset Fluttershy, and finally realized how he was about to lose his only friend, Discord gained the understanding of compassion and empathy. Discord was able to see how his shenanigans directly affected the ponies around him.

In this way, I feel Discord did not turn from evil to good. I would not even say that Discord was ever truly evil, simply immature and unable to truly grasp the impact of his actions. A child does what it does because it is fun for whatever reason. Once you teach a child to think about how his/her actions and how they will affect others, that child is more likely to act restrained and more composed. Discord is still the same chaos-loving draconequus that he will always be, but I feel as though draconequus, like ponies and people, are social creatures that seek the acceptance of their peers.

I completely agree that Discord wasn't really evil to begin with because chaos isn't naturally evil. True chaos is random. I like the comparison of him to a child. It makes perfect sense. I've never thought of it that way before, but it fits.

I really enjoyed this episode. Discord's antics being a big part of that. Although, I really want to know what Celestia needs Discord for. I think there's something going on with Celestia that's either going to show sometime by the end of this season or in the next one.

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hi hi

The Discord from Return of Harmony and the Discord from Keep Calm and Flutter On are two very different characters. I can accept that this Discord was just a careless child, but the old Discord was certainly not. (He was chaotic and quite evil at the same time, and very deliberate in his actions. And Celestia did need to help Twilight to overcome his tricks.) Maybe getting hit by the Elements of Harmony a few times gave him some more time to think about things. :)

On the topic of tangential things though.

Every time I bring up Cadences love spell, someone inevitably says, "it can only work on/strengthen/remind about love that already exists," as if that makes it better. It does not.

Simply altering existing emotions instead of creating new ones does not change the ethical dynamic. Sometimes emotions can blind people to things that they should be paying attention to, things that if ignored could cause serious problems. Love is generally a good thing, it is true, but it can also cause people to do really stupid things sometimes. People can judge other people's methods of achieving their desires, but nobody has the authority to judge those desires in and of themselves. By "reminding," that couple in the flashback, the spell essentially forced them to reject their current, naturally achieved perspective and replaced it with another. There was no deliberation, there was no acknowledgment that their argument was a mistake, no natural resolution of their dispute, they just instantly changed topics to something completely different. Rather than resolve the conflict, they just ignored the problem and started talking about some "thing" that the stallion supposedly did that was cute. But what is the stallion going to have to go without in order to pay for the spa treatment if he concedes? And conversely, is the mare going to have to neglect her friendships if she does instead? What if someone has a problem with something life or death? Altering their emotional balance could have serious repercussions. I cannot stress enough that manipulate someone's emotions without permission is thoroughly immoral. Simply being a couple does not grant any special rights to the other's mind or body without consent, and even if you have feelings for someone, you still have the right to put your hoof down and say "no." Nor is it a crime to end a relationship that you don't think is working out, regardless of feelings you might or might once have had.

Twilight's reminder spell works because her friends' condition was unnatural. They were forced into that state against their will and Twilight was healing them. Likewise with Nightmare Moon, who was overcome by a dark power.


If Pinkie Pie's clones were not alive, just echoes and mirrors, without any individuality, there are a number of things that would not have been true.

• They could learn: They didn't know the names of Pinkie Pie's friends to start with, but the real Pinkie Pie was able to teach them.

• They displayed emotion: Pinkie Pie's first clone was presented with a dilemma and broke down in tears by the end.

• They could perceive, and were able to have subjective experiences: First Pinkie Pie was able to relate her experiences from memory in her own words, in a way that was understandable to someone else.

• They were able to reason: First Clone was given an objective, "go to Applejack's barn raising so they could be at all the fun things at once." She observed a conflicting option and was able to infer that she would fail the second clause of her objective, altered her own plan, and was able to explain her reasoning in words to Real Pinkie Pie later.

• They had individuality: If they were all the same, they would have all failed the test simultaneously.

• They had self-awareness: They recognized that they were separate and distinct from other people, including each other, showing off their own abilities to gain recognition; and were able to comprehend the consequences ceasing to exist, when they stopped going fun crazy to participate in the test.

They had creativity: They were shown to be able to do things that they had never seen before, like making crazy faces. This is one of the hardest things to fake, and one of the strongest indicators of sapience.

• They had the ability to comprehend abstract concepts: IE speech.

Also: Twilight Specifically states that the real Pinkie Pie could be banished by the spell too.

In fact, they understood enough to realize that if they moved, they would get zapped and that it was something they didn't want to happen. Did the real Pinkie Pie display any self-preservation, being real and all?

Can anyone prove that they are indeed alive, beyond all doubt? That they are not just a Chinese Room, or a exceptionally advanced cleverbot? (The answer is no.)


In The Crystal Empire, Luna offered to go along with Twilight Sparkle and assist her. Celestia insists that Twilight do it alone, when Twilight was not actually able to succeed on her own in the end. If Twilight had sent Spike away like she originally tried to do, the lives (n. pl. 4. The physical, mental, and spiritual experiences that constitute existence. A manner of living.) would have clearly taken a turn for the worse when King Sombra reclaimed the Crystal Heart and the Empire.

Its a simple logical flaw, that is exposed by denying the consequent.

• Princess Celestia says that when Twilight Sparkle succeeds, they will know she is that much closer to being ready.

• If she already knows that Twilight Sparkle will succeed, she already knows that she is that much closer to being ready.

• If she doesn't know that Twilight Sparkle is that much closer to being ready, then as stated, she wouldn't know for sure that she would succeed.

No matter how you slice it, Celestia was wrong.


Discord had been imprisoned before. Discord had been given the option of leaving the ponies alone before. For all they knew, since he was known to be the spirit of disharmony, that getting along with ponies might have made him more miserable than being encased in stone. Encasing him in stone was no more cruel than what he had done to others, but they would have had no way of knowing if the alternative was less cruel. As I said, it would have been better if Celestia had not opened her mouth to explain her reasoning. If she'd kept quiet, I could have happily assumed that she was also concerned about Discord's well being, being trapped in stone and all, but she did explain otherwise.


When did Celestia objectify Luna? She's said fewer sentences to Luna than I have fingers on my hands, and I don't recall it ever happening.

• "It has been a thousand years since I have seen you like this."

• "Its time to put our differences behind us."

• "We were meant to rule together, little sister."

• "Will you accept my friendship?" (giving her a choice)

• "Yes. Princess Cadence and Shining Armor are already there. The others will be joining them soon."

• "She will succeed at her task. And when she does, we'll know that she is that much closer to being ready."


We don't have to know how magic works in Equestria. All we need to know are the effects, and they explained the effects. Whether it excites alpha and beta particles to inverse the polarity of the aether waves or whatever, the intended result was to take someone who didn't want to reform and would not have otherwise been reformed, and make them so.


I've never said that character flaws are a bad thing. I've never said that characters should be perfect, quite the contrary actually. However, in the arena of character flaws, there is a little bit of a difference between killing people and getting upset about losing a game of horseshoes. For me personally, the former character flaw needs to be addressed if I am to continue liking and relating to the character. As long as they realize their problems and are at least trying to succeed, I can continue rooting for them to succeed. If they disregard their problems and don't bother trying to set things right, then I have a much harder time doing so, and eventually they stop becoming a protagonist and shift over to becoming a villain.

It is probably just personal opinion on my part, I know that there are plenty of people that enjoyed cupcakes, but for me, that message ruins any kind of entertainment value the rest of the story might have had.

Celestia herself is something of a special case, because of her role. She is the authority figure in the show, the leader and along with Zecora, the teacher. A being that has ruled the world in peace and harmony for a thousand years. She may not be perfect, but in matters of peace and harmony, she should not be making the mistakes of rank amateurs. The world has seen time and time again that "Protect one's subjects at any cost," is a recipe for bloodshed, chaos, and disaster, while real justice, peace and harmony means providing those things for all. (Perhaps it is fate that tomorrow is Martin Luther King Jr. day in the United States.)

And its not a matter of whether or not characters learn anything from one episode to the next. Normally, I'm a lot more critical about stories when they're non-episodic. You can make people accept just about any premise in a work of fiction, and sometimes the more outlandish and impossible it is the better. Just so long as it doesn't contradict itself.

"The story-maker makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is "true;" it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside."
- J.R.R. Tolkien

Its not like I'm trying to hate on anything.

"It's just you and the audience - hundreds of people - and you've got just one chance, just once chance, to convince them that it's real. There's a magic moment where you can make them believe anything because they already want to. They're there and ready and you just have to take them the rest of the way."
- Ben Cato (Lora Innes)

I enjoy discussing things and I've tried to be fair, but when the discussion covers an issue that I think is false, I am liable to explain why I think it is so, because I think it is important to be honest. Even if it inevitably means I will not ingratiate myself. The latter of which, I guess I'm doing a pretty good job of these days, aren't I?

As for gravy: Gravy is a roux -a mixture of wheat flour and fat, which is traditionally dairy butter but can be vegetable oils as well- mixed with the liquids from cooked meat or vegetables.

There are a number of popular meat free gravies, including chocolate gravy, onion gravy, cream gravy and vegetable stock gravy.

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I respect your options Ginger, and you've presented them beautifully, like always. I think my main point is that maybe you're looking a little too deeply into the complexity of the character relationships in this cartoon. Is that a bad thing? Of course not. It's my personal opinion on the matter. The whole goal of the forum is to have discussion about the cartoon and to talk about what we like (or not) about Friendship is Magic. I also think that sometimes it's good to take a step back and give the attention where it's really deserved, which is why even though you may not agree with many of the interactions, plot points, messages, and character decisions, you still like the cartoon enough to come to this community and debate about the social implications at length.

That's quite commendable.

I don't think any writer of this series has hunched over their PC late at night, wondering what misguided message they could discretely pass along to the young, impressionable minds of their intended audience. They're writing for a group that won't stop to think "Celestia is objectifying Discord," or "Cadance is taking away the freedom of thought from that arguing couple." They're watching and enjoying the cartoon for what it is at their level, and the message is almost always delivered with eloquence and subtle grace. No tricks, gimmicks, or hidden messages -- at least ones you don't dig for yourself. If you run around a house late at night looking for ghosts, chances are very good you'll start to see or hear "ghosts" because you've conditioned yourself to find them.

You've said yourself that the suspension of disbelief is important, and makes the cartoon enjoyable. What if that was taken at different angle, maybe a "suspension of social dissonance," where, perhaps, the cartoon could be enjoyed at the level that the creators intended?

With all that said, Pinkie Pie is a cartoon character, and thus, not alive. I was being facetious with the gravy comment, and I think the gravy boat will be a running gag with Tabitha.

Love you as always, Gin Gin! <3

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The Discord from Return of Harmony and the Discord from Keep Calm and Flutter On are two very different characters. I can accept that this Discord was just a careless child, but the old Discord was certainly not. (He was chaotic and quite evil at the same time, and very deliberate in his actions. And Celestia did need to help Twilight to overcome his tricks.) Maybe getting hit by the Elements of Harmony a few times gave him some more time to think about things. :)

And ofcourse, the Discord from one thousand years ago was far more different than the Discord from those other episodes. He went from ruling Equstria and tormenting ponies to pouring chocolate rain on folks. And he did say that he could hear those outside of his stone prison, so it looks like he was conscious for all those years. Don't think he was having fun all those years. Probably messed with the ol' coconut. :-|

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hi hi

I'm afraid that looking too deeply into things is just one of the many occupational hazards of being me. (Though I was pretty sure I did go over some of the things that I enjoyed about the episode, like Discord's new personality and how smooth the majority of the pacing flowed.)

After having worked at a newspaper for several years, I'm used to things being reviewed several times by several people in order to catch mistakes, especially when it comes to people accused of wrongdoing. I kinda wish some of the writers would stay up late at night and come up with sinister and misguided messages, if only to lampoon them later. ;)

Concerning children and how they view the world though, I should like to point out some anecdotes. Between the ages of three and six, children begin to understand and use stereotypes. After age six, children start to understand other people's stereotypes, and by first grade, they are able to understand the consequences of discrimination. Also, by the age of seven or eight, children are just as likely as adults to act fairly when distributing resources, in contrast to children ages three to four which are almost universally selfish. Additionally, long lasting misconceptions can take root at ages younger than six. (My kindergarten teacher once told me that "Left was North," and to this day, decades later, I still have trouble getting right and left mixed up. It took me until second grade to realize what she had meant. Although the studies that were done on this subject involved misconceptions about geometry, like "A square isn't a rectangle.")


Back on topic though, I do have to wonder what 1000 years encased in stone would be like. The Elements of Harmony are remarkably poetic in what they do. (Nightmare Moon wanted eternal night, and she got banished to the moon which, in Equestria, is always on the night side of the world.) Discord wanted chaos (A state of disorder, where others had no control.) and was put into a situation where he had no control at all. Very poetic if you ask me. It was undoubtedly unpleasant for him, but he also seemed to have learned quite a lot while he was imprisoned, so it wasn't like he was in a sensory deprivation tank. He learned just about everything there was to know about the Mane Six, including what each of their elements was about, as well as Celestia's plans. I suspect it would be an awful lot like being in prison, watching the world on TV, but never being able to experience it for yourself.

And thats kind of what happened in this episode. He seemed to know all there was to know about friendship, magic and harmony in his last appearance -having ruthlessly exploited every weakness with clinical precision- but he'd never actually experienced it first hand.

I know some people had issues with Discord's change being too abrupt, and I might have agreed with them if I didn't stop and think about it. Discord is like the paragon of untrustworthiness, and before Fluttershy says he's her friend, he even gives what is effectively a soliloquy about how he is pretending to be nice so he can manipulate Fluttershy. So at whatever point that he actually starts appreciating Fluttershy's friendship, we as the audience have no real way to determine whether it is supposed to be an act or sincere. But at some point, his appreciation of Fluttershy's friendship did become sincere, and perhaps it is part of the lesson that you might not ever be sure when it happens and that you have to give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes.

Also, in other news:

217742__safe_twilight-sparkle_princess-celestia_image-macro_spoiler-s03e10_hub-logo.png.png

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I hated the episode, for the reasons already gone over. The good parts were good indeed, but they didn't cancel the bad. Discord's heel-face turn was too abrupt (and it DIDN'T need 44 minutes to make it work, it just needed more concise writing), some of the little gags felt off, like when Flut looked right into the camera and said "oh dear" (for Pinkie, it adds to her character of being "just a bit askew," but for Flut, it just took me out of the moment -- Who was she talking to?).

The laughs were good but the story was bad. I guess that's what happens when a 15 year older and two other writers have to wrap a script up on short notice.

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Princess Celestia

Today I learned that brainwashing is a perfectly valid tactic as long as you are doing it to make somepony 'good'. For Discord to brainwash the six element holders into being the opposite of what they were is terrible but for Twilight Sparkle to cast a 'Reform' spell and turn Discord into an opposite has no ethical problems if other methods have failed.

I am very curious how such a spell would work. Does it Reform its target based on the wishes of the caster? Would a unicorn like Sombra have reinforced his subjects into wanting to work for him instead of being slaves? Does it Reform the target based on the morals at the time it was created or written down? I'm sure a unicorn casting it before the events of Hearths Warming Eve would Reform an earth pony or a pegasus in a very different way to a unicorn, or you, would if casting it today. May I have a copy of the spell from the Canterlot library for further study. I can reassure Your Majesty that I am not a powerful enough spell caster to use it myself.

Using Fluttershy to reform Discord was a very clever idea but I am a little confused that the element of kindness used what could be considered bullying tactics, (do what I want or I will withdraw my friendship), to manipulate Discord into acting 'good' most of the time with stated intentions of 'evil' some of the time? Is it part of a long term plan to teach genuine empathy to him, to make him care about the friendship of one pony, then the well being and feelings of one pony and then extending the ethical circle wider to more friends, everypony in a town and eventually all ponies and other creatures of the world?

I have the honour to be, Princess, Your Majesty's humble and obedient servant

Curiosity Sparks

P.S. Have 'Reform camps' ever existed Your Majesty? Those two words sit together too easily and now I have worried myself.

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hi hi

Yeah, that reform spell was pretty dark. Considering how Celestia has been acting this season, I couldn't help but wonder myself exactly how she manages to keep Equestria in a state of peace and harmony...

On the topic of Fluttershy bullying Discord into being her friend by punishing him for disobedience, I would agree that it is a weakness in the story, because it muddies the issue. However, I think its not too unreasonable to assume that Fluttershy hadn't planned for that to happen, and that she was legitimately upset that Discord hadn't agreed to cooperate on his own. Fluttershy never threatened to take away her friendship as a condition of working together, it was Discord who suggested that it was all part of a plan.

I think the episode would have been better if that had been more clear, if I didn't have to wiggle around to reach that conclusion, but at least there is enough wiggle room to do so.

(Also, going along with what Weesh said, it might have been better if, rather than saying she had an important summit to attend, Celestia had said something like "I should go, because my presence will make this more difficult for you." As far as establishing trust is concerned.)

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The other problem I have is as follows: How in Equestria can Celestia prevent Discord from stealing the elements? As a serious, good to honest question, how? Its already been cannonized that Discord is both more powerful than Celestia and able to circumvent her spells, seeing as how he got them in the first place. So, I guess she made this spell specifically or.... I dunno. Maybe I'm just overthinking it.

Up Up, Down Down, Left Right Left Right B A Start.

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Anyone think it is weird how much Pinkie is opposed to the plan? She LOVED many of the strange things that Discord did. It is not in her nature to think back about something she loved and come up with a ridiculous reason to hate it. She is quite the optimist.

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Anyone think it is weird how much Pinkie is opposed to the plan? She LOVED many of the strange things that Discord did. It is not in her nature to think back about something she loved and come up with a ridiculous reason to hate it. She is quite the optimist.

Yeah, I commented on that in my appraisal. It just felt like they were forcing the situation so Fluttershy would be Discord's sole supporter.

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Discord made her miserable - she was anything but unhappy to see him go the last time he was free...why would she be happy to see him?

Considering what he put all of them through, I doubt she'd be happy to be put in that situation at all.

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Discord made her miserable - she was anything but unhappy to see him go the last time he was free...why would she be happy to see him?

Considering what he put all of them through, I doubt she'd be happy to be put in that situation at all.

Remember she put the ceremony to put discord back in stone on pause so she could get more chocolate milk rain. She knew she was going to miss it on some level.

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hi hi

If you don't have to boil someone's emotions and opinions down into a single black and white, like or dislike, I think it is safe to say that Pinkie Pie has every reason to be angry with Discord himself. She may have enjoyed the chocolate rain, but he also turned her into a twisted shadow of her former self, made her hate her friends and all the things she used to enjoy.

I realize that they wanted to make the different characters act as a unified, undifferentiated foil to Fluttershy, but Pinkie Pie certainly had some motive to want to see Discord using his powers for good instead of evil, assuming she could forgive him. We saw that she accepted him in the end, at least, but I think it might be interesting to see if she'd forgive him.

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So what is it about Pinkie that when she hears about discord returning, the critique she gives is no whipped cream rather than the reasonable excuses given by the other ponies (and Ginger)? I'd like to see her act serious when the situation calls for it.

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I dunno, it seems like being relatively easily zapped back into living stone might put have put a damper on Discord's behavior from the last episode. After all, he let chaos reign and at the time expected to be free forever.

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I like the idea of this episode being a part of something bigger in the future. But what I don't like is how it was unfolded. It a MLPFiM show with continuity is what we end up getting, its going to have to be more blunt with the idea that its going to tell a huge overarcing story like primetime dramas for me to really appreciate that, and I just don't see it. When episodes have a small hint of something in the future, it just leaves each individual episode, which should stand alone by themselves, feel empty towards the end of the episode.

Overall, I did like this episode. I just wish they had spent more time developing Discord longing for his friendship with Fluttershy. Let him think about it for a while, not a 2 second "Well played, Fluttershy". If they had extra time to add tension to the idea that Discord would be free to do what he wants but suffer from being alone and rejected, the episode lesson would have spoke mountains more than the rushed one that we got.

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Overall, I did like this episode. I just wish they had spent more time developing Discord longing for his friendship with Fluttershy. Let him think about it for a while, not a 2 second "Well played, Fluttershy". If they had extra time to add tension to the idea that Discord would be free to do what he wants but suffer from being alone and rejected, the episode lesson would have spoke mountains more than the rushed one that we got.

Nailed it. Thank you.

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