S03 E11 - "Just For Sidekicks"

[NoGiantRobots1983]

The point of any discussion is to read into something and discuss what it means, This is especially true with any discussion about episodes. Reference Ginger's opinions and posts in any episode discussion thread and you'll see a lot of this, which is good, as it promotes thought and dialogue. If we all agreed on something, we wouldn't have anything to discuss!

Right, but sometimes it helps to take a step back and make sure you're putting everything in perspective. Fans especially have a way of seeing more meaning/significance than there actually is. It's like seeing shapes in the clouds. It COULD be some higher power trying to communicate with you... or it could be just a bunch of white fluff that kinda-sorta resembles something.

Are we watching the same cartoon? Twilight's entire role is built on the subplot that she is studying under Celestia and reporting her findings back to her. Do you think she's doing this for fun?

In a sense, yes.

Or rather, in a meta-perspective, I think this is simply to give a cartoon a premise, some sort of thread so the writers have something to work with. Just like why Inspector Gadget battles Dr. Claw, why Chip and Dale formed the Rescue Rangers, why the Spirit of the Earth called on five random teens to stop pollution, etc. It was something we were supposed to accept.

Think about it: if Twilight learning was foreshadowing something, why did "Lesson Zero" go and say that now EVERYONE is learning and reporting? Do they ALL have a special destiny now? I recall reading somewhere that, that particular development happened so they wouldn't have to shoehorn Twi into every story... which sure as shootin' doesn't sound like they planned for her to be in any way special.

What purpose does it serve? There is a definite method to how this show is written, and I think the writers are tasked with writing a show that can be enjoyed on many different levels. For the adult fans, we have parody and little callbacks of continuity and character growth (Rainbow Dash reading Daring Do, characters handling problems differently because they've grown in some way), as well as subplot building. A good example of this is the Gala arc. It was introduced early in S1 with Ticket Master, explored again in Suited for Success, then finally resolved in The Best Night Ever.

These are examples of the writers going above and beyond the call of duty. They are not examples of any three-year master plan.

Most series are written several seasons in advance.

I find that hard to believe.

As for the "show meant for little girls" comment, you should try reading some of the things Lauren Faust has said about her design of FiM and the attitude taken toward girl-targeted entertainment:

You might also read this article, written early in FiM's debut by Ms. Faust herself in rebuttal to comments made about the cartoon, that gives insight to her design process and how it attempts to revive a stale paradigm of girls' entertainment.

I think you should take a hard look at what Friendship is Magic represents -- and why you personally enjoy it -- before making comments such as the one above. Girls deserve far more than we've been getting in a market that's heavily male dominated, and this cartoon is an example for others to follow. Don't confuse this with emulate; I'm speaking strictly in terms of quality, presentation, and message.

I'm feeling some defensiveness here. All I'm saying is, "keep it in perspective." Faust wanted MLP to actually be good and intelligent, yes. But there's different types of "good and intelligent." A good orange isn't the same as a good apple.

Faust wanted the show to be good, but I also think she knew her limits. I always felt she was more like a Stan Lee or Jack Kirby, rather than being like Tolkien or Hideo Kojima.

[Rosewind]

I really don't agree with whatever point it is you're trying to make, but that's fine.

It's your opinion.

I think the episodes are following a specific formula, and it's been confusing for us because a lot of it was already formed as Lauren Faust's creative headcanon to give the series direction before she left. Professional writers do not sit down and say "Okay, I'm going to write the next season now!" They will have notes written down, references, ideas, and an outline of what story, message, etc. they want to tell to their audience. They will have characters created with details about them well before they are whisked into the story. This is especially true with animation. Traditionally, once the script is written, a storyboard is drawn up, and many different episodes at once go through production, and get pieced together like a big puzzle. They do not work on one episode at a time -- it's too inefficient. Amy Keating Rogers said in her own panel that the script to screen process is immense, and a lot of what was written was, well, written before FiM really became popular.

If you want perspective, look at the overall tone between seasons. Lesson Zero happened because the writers wanted to avoid the story delivery of the first season (Twilight writing letters only) to give dimension to the rest of the cast and say "Hey, Twilight is important, but so are all of her friends." S3 took a sharp focus back to her because it's building up to a finale where a certain something happens. That's your subplot. They've been hinting in it not only in the cartoon, but in advertisements as well, so it's not like it's hidden away for the fans to speculate about to infinity. If you want to ignore the complexity of the cartoon or its subplots because you feel the fans are doing it too much, go for it. You are free to appreciate the cartoon how you like, and on whatever level you like. How others choose to react to it is their own perspective to indulge however they like.

FiM is a rich cartoon full of things to see. Something is usually happening in the background, which enrich future viewings of an episode. I think it's impossible to fully appreciate an episode on its first view-through, which speaks tomes of its quality by design. It's simply fun to watch, because it's a quality cartoon with quality characters and good stories to share. It has a fantastic universe that they tease us with. We want to know more about it, and how it ticks, and the details trickle down to us like mana from heaven. It's a bonus that this show was aimed for girls and transcended itself into something much more. It shows that a cartoon meant for girls can not only be awesome, but accessible to anyone who can enjoy it for what it is.

[elsporko]

It does seem like they have been building to Twilight becoming a princess. If making her own magic is what makes her a princes then we can see her progressing

In Crystal Empre she uses dark magic, something she has never used before. The magic pool magic might have been different then her normal unicorn magic as well. I'm guessing to make magic it helps to know more then one type of magic.

In magic duel Twilight learns the importance of thinking creativly and looking at all the angels for success. Creating magic likely requires being able to think creativly since she has to make something new.

In Keep Calm and Flutter On she is given the Elements of Harmony and had a hand in changing Discord. It seems like this is going to have an impact somehow on a future episode.

With two more episodes it will be interesting to see if we can see more trends that can fit in this theory

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I'd be curious to find out just how much collaboration goes on between writers. I know they get their assignments from people who might have an overall plan, but what lengths do they have to go to in order to prevent the specifics of each episode from conflicting with other episodes?

[elsporko]

I think in general on shows like this they have meetings to discuss ideas. Then it goes to a specific writer. Somebody else may edit or rewrite the script after it is finished. A show bible in consulted for continuity and maybe there is somebody who is suppose to make sure continuity is kept somewhat.

Not entirely sure though, just a pieced together guess

[weesh]

I'd like to know the answer to that too ginger. Specifically with regards to all the call backs in this episode.

[NoGiantRobots1983]

I really don't agree with whatever point it is you're trying to make, but that's fine.

Look--

The truth is, I don't understand what you're even driving at, at all. First you say the show feels "darker" and like its "leading up to something." Okay, given the foreshadowing in Crystal Empire, the latter is undeniable, but "darker?" Discord got reformed and the most recent episode was about Spike animal-sitting. What's "dark" here?

What also confuses me is this seeming assertion of yours that Lauren Faust had all three seasons completely planned out from the beginning, even though we know from her own words that this isn't true and, anyway, what kind of television writer would plan three seasons in advance? Keep in mind especially that when she first did work on FIM, she had no idea it that it would be such a phenomenon. Even shows like X-Files and Lost, which are acclaimed for their mythology arcs, are actually made up season-by-season and often have to change plans or come up with new angles because of stuff they didn't plan on.

And to be honest, I'm not even sure why we're debating about whether the show was planned in advance or not anyway--its irrelevent, it proves nothing one way or the other.

You seem to have read my comments about "it's a kids show, keep it in perspective" and seem to have taken that as being a knock against MLP. Frankly I've never understood why some fans have to convince themselves that the things they like are absolute works of art that have absolutely no flaw or tarnish and need to absolutely prove that its the greatest thing ever. Just because a thing is what it is doesn't mean you're not allowed to love it. Right, Pinkie Pie?

*Reaches over and scruffles Pinkie's mane*

[Rosewind]

Look--

The truth is, I don't understand what you're even driving at, at all. First you say the show feels "darker" and like its "leading up to something." Okay, given the foreshadowing in Crystal Empire, the latter is undeniable, but "darker?" Discord got reformed and the most recent episode was about Spike animal-sitting. What's "dark" here?

What also confuses me is this seeming assertion of yours that Lauren Faust had all three seasons completely planned out from the beginning, even though we know from her own words that this isn't true and, anyway, what kind of television writer would plan three seasons in advance? Keep in mind especially that when she first did work on FIM, she had no idea it that it would be such a phenomenon. Even shows like X-Files and Lost, which are acclaimed for their mythology arcs, are actually made up season-by-season and often have to change plans or come up with new angles because of stuff they didn't plan on.

And to be honest, I'm not even sure why we're debating about whether the show was planned in advance or not anyway--its irrelevent, it proves nothing one way or the other.

You seem to have read my comments about "it's a kids show, keep it in perspective" and seem to have taken that as being a knock against MLP. Frankly I've never understood why some fans have to convince themselves that the things they like are absolute works of art that have absolutely no flaw or tarnish and need to absolutely prove that its the greatest thing ever. Just because a thing is what it is doesn't mean you're not allowed to love it. Right, Pinkie Pie?

*Reaches over and scruffles Pinkie's mane*

Darker? Let's see. Too Many Pinkie Pies? Howzabout One Bad Apple? That one hit you pretty close to home, I'm guessing based on your strong and continuous opinions in that thread regarding its message and content. Magic Duel -- Trixie comes back, takes over Ponyville, and enslaves its residents out of spite. That's pretty dark. Sleepless in Ponyville had a dark spookiness to it.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. It's common sense that a writer for a television series/cartoon would have enough content to satisfy a pitch and a contract. Making a cartoon is not the same as making a live action television series. Lauren Faust even spoke about her early design of Discord and how the seasons overlapped, since he was supposed to be in the finale of S1. I'd take the time to look up this information (all readily available on Google and numerous articles, interviews, etc. -- take your pick), but I'll leave that leg work up to you. I attended a panel hosted by Amy Keating Rogers, and she said that the script-to-screen process takes over a year. It stands to reason that S2 was in production in some way while S1 was airing. That is evidence with information to back it up, straight from the mouth of one of the writers that I heard personally. If you want to believe that cartoons are produced a la carte by the seat of the production crew's pants, good for you.

I have a problem with your last comment. Not once did I suggest that FiM was flawless and thus, I must devalue your opinions and prove you wrong. It's about presenting your point of view in a communicable way with evidence to back it up. Learn the difference before spouting off nonsense like this, if you wish to have a real discussion of any worth or relevance. Your argument is generalizing fans of the show as being zealots blind to its quality, when the fandom is probably most sensitive to it. Evidence of this can be found within this thread, and the many others that explore and scrutinize every nook and cranny of an episode, its implications, story, direction, everything. If you don't like an episode, great. If you don't like the message of an episode, great. If you don't like what others have to say about the episode because their opinions are different from yours, you're wrong. I have nothing to prove to you. You have to prove to yourself if the cartoon is worth watching or not, based on your own personal values of what you find entertaining.

[starswirlthebearded]

hi hi

I'd be curious to find out just how much collaboration goes on between writers. I know they get their assignments from people who might have an overall plan, but what lengths do they have to go to in order to prevent the specifics of each episode from conflicting with other episodes?

Personally, I'd like to think, at least to an extent, the writing team meets occasionally to discuss things, and come up with ideas as a collective. I know this is how Animaniacs was written, as well as several other shows. Even if one person does the writing for a given episode, it is great if writers hear a scenario and shoot ideas out as a team, especially for jokes and such, because that only helps the creative process.

[weesh]

I'd be curious to find out just how much collaboration goes on between writers. I know they get their assignments from people who might have an overall plan, but what lengths do they have to go to in order to prevent the specifics of each episode from conflicting with other episodes?

For the show "Rosanne", all the writers shared a room and were social with each other. Many of the episodes have multiple writers in the credits.