Official Discussion Thread - S05E25-6 The Cutie Re-Mark

[Solana]

Actually, I'm referring to equestria being safe.

And my reference to nuclear power was just a reference to possibly how powerful they are.  I was just making a comparison.  Wasn't actually intending to bring real-world physics into this.

And admittedly, I wasn't referring to the entire world, but I was referring to the nation.  more than just the immediate vicinity.

And I am NOT assuming any pony can generate as much energy as our sun.  It's evident that things work much differently there.

As I said before, I'm not even sure we can confirm that THEIR sun even produces heat, or has anything to do with the weather at all.

Here, the seasons change depending on the position of the sun in relation to earth.  There, the seasons change because of a schedule carried out by the ponies and other creatures, most notably pegasi.  Even winter wouldn't happen if the Pegasi didn't bring in the snow themselves, as indicated by 'Tanks for the memories'.  The only thing we know is that there may be SOMETHING about the sun there that promotes plantlife, and it can be produced artificially.

For me to grow plants in, say, my basement, I don't have to be able to produce an amount of energy equal to that which reaches here from the sun in a similar size area.  I just have to run a few good light bulbs.

My earlier point is that sustaining a shield is almost certainly MUCH more difficult to do than sustaining plantlife, over even a much larger area.

If Cadence can sustain a shield for days on end with no sleep (This being the primary reason it failed, not from lack of magical power, if I recall correctly) it shouldn't be much of a stretch to say Nightmare Moon could sustain plantlife in a MUCH, MUCH, larger area.

And given it doesn't show her running this spell herself, it either doesn't need to be sustained, but rather just cast on occasion, or for whatever reason, a spell isn't needed in the first place.  I can't recall any references in the show that indicate that plants there even require sunlight in the first place.  Maybe there is, but nothing comes to mind.

Either way, I believe it's possible that at minimum, Equestria is capable of sustaining plant life.  And if it's possible, Nightmare Moon probably does so.

As I said before, She wants to rule.  What good is it to rule over a bunch of corpses and a handful of guards?

[QuickLime]

Cadance was not doing it for days on end, she was drop dead exhausted after 3 days.

[Solana]

I would be too after 3 days of no sleep, even if I wasn't "Doing" anything at all. 

That's what I meant by 'days on end'  "Days", more than one, "On end", non stop.

I'd say 3 days non-stop qualifies.

And, like I said, I believe the reason it finally collapsed wasn't due to her being out of magic, but more because of the lack of sleep.  Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but i'm going to re-watch to make sure.

[QuickLime]

I would be too after 3 days of no sleep, even if I wasn't "Doing" anything at all. 

That's what I meant by 'days on end'  "Days", more than one, "On end", non stop.

I'd say 3 days non-stop qualifies.

And, like I said, I believe the reason it finally collapsed wasn't due to her being out of magic, but more because of the lack of sleep.  Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but i'm going to re-watch to make sure.

She wasn't just tired from lack of sleep, using magic is a great, and powerful strain on a pony, she was tired because her magic was starting to wane, like if you use a muscle too much and manage to make it tired.

[Solana]

In either case, it appears that whatever is used to keep vegetation growing doesn't need to be sustained.  I ASSUME it's a spell, but it's possible that, for whatever reason, plantlife in Equestria can grow anyway.  If it is indeed a spell, It doesn't need to be sustained, as we don't see Nightmare Moons horn glowing constantly to keep this up.  Pair this with it requiring far less energy to cast than a force field, and I still believe that the nation of Equestria could survive on this.

[QuickLime]

In either case, it appears that whatever is used to keep vegetation growing doesn't need to be sustained.  I ASSUME it's a spell, but it's possible that, for whatever reason, plantlife in Equestria can grow anyway.  If it is indeed a spell, It doesn't need to be sustained, as we don't see Nightmare Moons horn glowing constantly to keep this up.  Pair this with it requiring far less energy to cast than a force field, and I still believe that the nation of Equestria could survive on this.

Surviving and Thriving are two different things

[Solana]

never said thriving.  never (intentionally) implied thriving.

 

I'm starting to think this subject could use a topic of it's own.  Something a bit more organized.

The first post being updated with whatever was discussed afterwards, including a list of problems with this AU and potential solutions to the problems.

Anybody up to diving into this further with me?

[QuickLime]

Not really, but you have fun with that! It might be interesting discussion

[stormchaser1991]

it is interesting but i also have to point out that on the zecora ep can't think of name that AJ said that th everfree forest is natural and it doesn't work like the rest of equestria so perhaps it doesn't need unicorn magic to stay green it can stay green by itself or some other thing say the element tree is keeping it green

[Bramble Rose]

You do not 'just need light bulbs' to make plants grow.  If you provide only light to plants, they will die.

 

They also need water.  Which in Equestria, is provided by the rain.  Now, as is pointed out, this is created up in Cloudsdale.  I would consider it a reasonable assumption that they don't generate the power for this out of nothing at all - and as a manual instead of automatic counterpart to our own weather system, it would be fair to assume that their machinery is solar-powered.  After all, our weather is, why wouldn't theirs be?  They just have a few more gizmos between the sun and the clouds.  The energy has to come from somewhere.

 

However, if you only give plants light and water, they will die.  So even ignoring the water part...

 

You know what else is needed for plants to survive?  Nitrogen.  Not just 'nitrogen in the air' - plants can't use that.  They need it catalyzed into something they can use.  Again, in our world, we kinda need the sun for that, through a few intermediary meteorological systems.

 

I could keep going, but the point is - there's a LOT of systems out there that are all interwoven in order to get a plant to grow.  It's an incredibly complex mechanism, nature.  And it all revolves around the ridiculous levels of power output that the sun provides.  It's not just light.

[QuickLime]

Not to mention the moon would be a dark, black orb, because it's only bright due to reflecting light from the sun...

[Solana]

And yet, the moon was shining during that episode.  The sun isn't dark, it's just been moved.

 

And it's true that in our world that plants need nitrogen and many things other than just light.  But I think you're forgetting one detail.  This isn't our world.  There are MANY things about this cartoon world that defy what the science of our world would allow.  And because of this, we really can't rely on anything that our science says.  Afterall, how good of an idea is it to rely on something that is only true half of the time?  And why would they need solar power?  The show displays machinery that uses magic, and doesn't seem to require a constant supply of magic to be provided by a unicorn.

Flim and Flams machine operated with a spell cast on it, but it appears that it was capable of storing this magical energy in much the same way a battery stores electricity, as it operates even when they are no longer casting the spell.

And take Tank, RD's tortoise.  The propeller he wears for flight.  It is obviously magic based.  It doesn't appear to require a unicorn to charge it up either, but it's possible RD gets Twi to 'charge it up' off screen or something.  Yet another unknown.

Taking this into account, I doubt that the weather factory requires solar power.

[QuickLime]

I think you are writing too much of other peoples discussion off as "This is the makebelive fantasy pony world" and it's sorta making discussion not super fun

[Solana]

well in that case, ignore that part of my last post for the sake of keeping it fun.

For sake of argument, I can roll with "Go with our science unless the show states otherwise".

The moon was still shining in that episode, so that point is bust already.  Either the sun there is only moved, or for whatever reason, the moon there does produce light.  If it is only moved, and we assume that like ours, their planet is round, the other side of the planet is under eternal day, and I have my own reason (With references) as to why this side wouldn't be burnt to a crisp, but that's another argument all together.

And it is shown that machinery can run on magic without a need for a spell to be cast in a sustained manner, allowing operation of the weather factory to continue.  This would imply that it would still be possible for plants to get their water, provided the pegasi still do their job.

And if we are going to bring science from our world into this, consider the fact that oxygen is created by plant life.

How long would the atmosphere be breathable if the everfree forest and the area surrounding the castle was the only surviving plantlife on the planet?  The series is, what, 5 years old now?  And this AU starts from pretty much the time frame of the first episode.  Would the atmosphere still be breathable after 5 years?

Granted, most creatures would have died early on due to the starvation that would have apparently occurred, living creatures aren't the only thing that consumes O2, or produces CO2.  Maybe, just MAYBE, the O2 content would still be high enough, but plants reduce toxic CO2 as well, which is not caused only by living creatures.  Decaying organisms, including plants, cause it.  Volcanoes, which are present in Equestria, produce a LOT of CO2, and probably a LOT more than that one little forest can handle.  And the amount produced by volcanoes is dwarfed by the amount produced by most other natural sources, including the afore mentioned decomposition.  And this decomposition would have increased tremendously on account that nearly EVERYTHING outside of that 'bubble' is dead and decomposing, making the atmosphere quite toxic.

Now as for the nitrogen issue, one of the many ways nitrogen enters the soil is through rainfall.  Nitrogen in the air gets carried down and into the soil.  One other way is through decomposition.  point is, there are many ways for nitrogen to get to the soil, and I'd be here all day if I tried to cover all of them thoroughly.  Point is, it would still be there.  If it wasn't, the plantlife we saw in that episode would have been already dead from this.

I'm doubtful that the planets atmosphere would be breathable for this long if she didn't have a way to keep plantlife going on a large scale.

[starswirlthebearded]

I'm not going to get into arguing with you again (I'm well past done), but I need to point out that terrestrial plants actually only make up a small part of what generates oxygen. Around 75% of the oxygen generated by the planet actually comes from the oceans. Plankton specifically is the main source, but kelp and seaweed also play a role. If terrestrial plant life generated the brunt of oxygen we'd already be in trouble as we have caused RAMPANT deforestation across the globe, yet here we all still are. 

[Solana]

I'm aware that plankton is the primary source of oxygen.

Does plankton not also require sunlight, just as terrestrial plants do?

This just goes to say that since 5 years later, the atmosphere is still breathable, somehow sunlight is either not an important factor in this world, or another method has been found to support plantlife on a large scale.

[QuickLime]

Doesn't mean that  Luna's rule is alright, they are still obviously unhappy, they are tense, crabby, aloof, and in general unpleasant, and Nightmare Moon is powerhungry.

[Solana]

Oh, I never said her rule would be ideal.

This entire discussion started because I think it would have been a better alternative to King Sombras AU, and the Changling AU.

While bad, I just still believe those two were worse.

[QuickLime]

Oh, I never said her rule would be ideal.

This entire discussion started because I think it would have been a better alternative to King Sombras AU, and the Changling AU.

While bad, I just still believe those two were worse.

No, I think Tirek's is the worst lol

[starswirlthebearded]

I'm aware that plankton is the primary source of oxygen.

Does plankton not also require sunlight, just as terrestrial plants do? Although microscopic, it is still a plant.

This just goes to say that since 5 years later, the atmosphere is still breathable, somehow sunlight is either not an important factor in this world, or another method has been found to support plantlife on a large scale.

Is it not possible that the brunt of the oxygen comes from oceans on the other side of the world which might not be inhabited by ponies? And could be mostly oceans? Which means that currently the sun is where it needs to be to sustain the world with oxygen, since the habitable side of the world is mostly terrestrial?The whole of Equestria could be closer to Pangea. Which means the plants that supply the oxygen are fine, but the plants that are required for their sustenance are not? Meaning that there could be a famine outside of the small scope of the world we saw, which was around the castle, where everything would be great since most resources would be focused there anyway.... 

[Solana]

@ Quickilme

I can't argue with that.

 

@Starswirl

Now THAT is a rebuttal I can't disagree with.

So now there is a proper explanation as to how the atmosphere is still breathable after all this time, but still implies that food is scarce.

Immediately coming to mind would be importing food from that side, but I SERIOUSLY doubt that is her style, and definitely wouldn't be easy.

I'm going to have to think on this one for a bit.

In any case, I've started a discussion for this subject in a new topic.

I honestly didn't intend to turn a topic for discussion as a whole about the episode into a debate on NMM's specific reality.

Any further replies I have on the matter will be there so as to not hijack this topic any further.

 

Hope to see you there!

http://www.canterlot.com/topic/21930-season-finale-nightmare-moons-alternate-timeline/