get your nerd on Alicorn Science class

[Polyblank]

So, we're looking at the two royal sisters - And how ridiculous/possibly they can work.

I'd like to have a discussion so we could try and theorize why they work, how and what they can do.

Celestia - Raising the sun

Celestia is the most powerful organism in the known universe - both in ours and Equestria - thanks to her sun-raising abilities.. Some lovely statistics here.

1.989 × 10^30 kg - The weight of our sun, we'll say it's the same as the Equestrian one from now on.

 

Celestia's size - using the applejack apple-scale (A scene showing her pulling apples and getting the average size of apples) We'll say that Celestia would have around the same weight and size as an Arabian horse. This puts her at a rather small 450 kilos. Now, how fast is the sun? Considering

The Earth orbits, on average, 93 million miles (149,600,000 km) from the Sun, or an (Astronomical Unit ladies and a gents) taking one year to complete an orbit. The Earth revolves around the Sun at a speed of about 18.5 miles/sec (30 km/sec). So Assuming that

A) Equestria's star revolves around Equus (How to spell that, polyblank has no idea) at the same distance earth revolves around the sun.

B) Equestria's sun and ours are identical in speed, tilt, mass, composition and age.

D) The Equestrian sun requires to be manually moved the entire day. I assume this works as Celestia "raises" the sun by somehow creating an orbital pull that it will follow.

C) Polyblank doesn't know the alphabet

E) Celestia's abilities come purely from her magical strength - her physical body has nothing to do with it. which is good, because if her horn was just a magnifier Celestia would be denser then a neutron star and the planet would destroy itself from her sheer mass disrupting the gravity field - which she'd have to have enough strength in to pull the sun around.

 

Assuming this, the sun produes 400 trillion watts of energy - each second - and the force of gravity on it is around 28 times stronger then the force on the earth.

Sooo...

 

If Celestia is to control a gravity field for the sun, making it rotate around the earth at the same speed as the earth rotates around the sun - She will be moving it with a force of a whopping 274.596 m/s²! That's pretty darn strong. To convert that into kilogram force, that's roughly 2800099932188872 kilograms of force each second. Now, I might as well use the statistics I've scattered to figure out her strength to size ratio. dividing those kilograms of force into 450, the average Arabian horse weight, One kilogram of Celestia have would contain about 6,222,444,293,753.049 of applicable force. but considering we're talking about her magical ability, this doesn't help us. I'm going to be taking a leap of faith to assume that magic uses the same amount of kilojoules for physical activity. Now one joule is roughly the amount of energy required to lift a one kilo object ten centimeters. multiply that by 1.989x10^30 and change the number into 39 kilometers a second,.

and you have an astounding...

78,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 required kilojoules for Celestia to rotate the sun for ONE SECOND.

And considering she can "Harness" the power of the sun to move it, (400 trillion watts of energy that can cleanly be converted into kilojoules) that still leaves Celestia needing 77,999,999,960,000,000,000,000 of energy to perform the task.

Hopefully she had her morning coffee.

 

Note - This is really messy (and incomplete) and there are a lot of factors I didn't mention - I'd like it if others could help me with da sciencez and also help with the other princesses.

(For instance, how Cadence is able to make ponies love each other, how Luna controls the moon, how their manes work, ect. Please point out where I've made mistakes)

 

 

[Polyblank]

Also, please try to include imperial and metric versions of your statistics in your posts. I didn't in the main post at the time.

[Rosewind]

Interesting theorycrafting there. She moves the sun because magic.

[DerpRavener]

Objection!

If the relationship between the planets and their stars is the same, then Equus (which is how I'm referring to Equestria's planet because fewer letters) is orders of magnitude smaller than its sun.  Combine this with the fact that Earth days are determined by the rotation of the Earth, independent of their changes in position relative to each other, then if Sol and Equus' star were similar, Celestia being the intelligent mare that she is would probably rotate the planet rather than waste time trying to move the sun.

 

However, as evidence suggests that it is the sun that moves (Twilight still appeared to be controlling the sun when she had all the alicorn powers, and she made no comment about things being different to what she'd been told), then the answer appears to be that Equus is larger than its sun.  This could be because Equus is truly gargantuan, but again if we look at the energy required it would take a lot to keep such a huge mass from collapsing into a black hole or something, so the more reasonable possibility is the other one, that Equus' sun is actually really, really tiny as stars go.  It just also happens to be much closer to the planet than most stars would be.  If I had to estimate, I'd guess it's about the size of the moon.

 

Which makes even more sense if you consider that Luna controls the moon.  Luna and Celestia seem to be pretty close to each other in ability, so it makes sense that if they require similar effort to control their respective celestial bodies, those things should themselves be similar in mass.

 

We also can't assume that moving the sun via magic and moving it via physical force are comparable.  Rather than pushing the sun, one could theoretically move it by causing it to emit less particles in the direction you wanted it to go, and emit more particles in the direction you wanted it to move away from.  Or one could change its physical laws so that it behaves as though it had very little mass when pushed.  And I don't think we could say how much energy is required in each case.

 

Finally, I'll add my two cents on Cadance's abilities: If we assume it's actual love rather than mind control, and we assume she isn't just warping reality to make it so the affected individuals have always been in love, then I believe she has access to some magical interpretation of fate.  She can sense when ponies have the potential to be in love with each other, and she can make that actual by making them realize it.  Or something like that.

[Lyipheoryia]

On 5/27/2016 at 4:20 PM, DerpRavener said:

 

 

Finally, I'll add my two cents on Cadance's abilities: If we assume it's actual love rather than mind control, and we assume she isn't just warping reality to make it so the affected individuals have always been in love, then I believe she has access to some magical interpretation of fate.  She can sense when ponies have the potential to be in love with each other, and she can make that actual by making them realize it.  Or something like that.

Well, that files in with Starlight's abilities.  She literally went back into time, there for creating multiple realities.  However, in each reality, Loop 1's Twlight (the one that we know) never encountered each loop's Twilight.  Starlight wasn't just controlling time, she was controlling destiny.  And considering how Twilight's whole life is about "destiny with friends, destiny with magic", and Starlight was able to change all that-it proves Starlight is more powerful than destiny and fate itself.  If Starlight could have magic over fate, then it would make absolute sense that a Princess could foresee or sense fate in some way or the other.  

 

On the other hand/hoof, Twilight entered multiple realities where loop versions of herself would have existed.  However, she accumulated zero memories that each loop's Twilight would have accommodated-retaining only her memories of the visit to the loops and thereof.  Twilight entered several different time loops, presumably each following the same clock as the original loop (the Equestria we know).  

 

We've seen Twilight own the magic of both the Sun, Moon, and Interpretative Magic of Love-meaning that magic is transferable.  It also means that Twilight has incredible sustain and magic capacities.  While fighting with Tirek, she used relatively simple spells (lasers, shields, etc).  But considering she had the magic and thus access to spells of all three Princesses and she didn't use those spells, it could mean that Twilight simply doesn't have the ability to access that magic.  She could access the spells, but her magic level did not correspond to the level with the other Princesses.  It's a lock-and-key idea.  The Princesses not only transferred magic to Twilight, they transfered their cutie marks.  And therefore, their destiny.  Twilight had the destiny of three ponies-she had all the power Celestia, Luna, and Cadence ever had.  This also means that destiny is interchangeable.  

 

With that in mind, it could mean that Starlight's ability is nothing more than another spell.  If changing cutie marks and adjusting the fate of fellow ponies is just a spell, then it means it's all just magic.

 

In other words, magic makes no sense. 

[DerpRavener]

1 hour ago, Lyipheoryia said:

In other words, magic makes no sense. 

 

Possible, but not necessarily true.

I agree that magic in the show at least often seems to have that fable theme of 'functioning however is needed for the story/author's purposes', so many times at least from a Doylist standpoint magic is simply inconsistent, but that isn't the only possible explanation here.

 

1 hour ago, Lyipheoryia said:

We've seen Twilight own the magic of both the Sun, Moon, and Interpretative Magic of Love-meaning that magic is transferable.  It also means that Twilight has incredible sustain and magic capacities.  While fighting with Tirek, she used relatively simple spells (lasers, shields, etc).  But considering she had the magic and thus access to spells of all three Princesses and she didn't use those spells, it could mean that Twilight simply doesn't have the ability to access that magic.  She could access the spells, but her magic level did not correspond to the level with the other Princesses.  It's a lock-and-key idea.  The Princesses not only transferred magic to Twilight, they transfered their cutie marks.  And therefore, their destiny.  Twilight had the destiny of three ponies-she had all the power Celestia, Luna, and Cadence ever had.  This also means that destiny is interchangeable.

 

This argument only works if power is the only barrier to casting a spell.  I would argue that spells generally have at least two elements, power and technique.  It isn't enough to just have enough magic to fuel a spell, the spell still needs to be cast and that requires an understanding of how the spell works (even if it's just the bare minimum of 'do thing A, to cause event B').

 

Now, in the case where Twilight borrowed the other princess' power, note that at no point did she also borrow their knowledge.  So, it's entirely reasonable that she wasn't able to suddenly cast their spells, since that would be a key component.

 

The other thing that comes to mind is this: if we're looking at just the abilities inherent to their domains, we did see Twilight control the sun, and there didn't really seem to be any reason to use 'love magic'.  No one was in a state of making or breaking relationships, generally everyone was either fighting or incapacitated.  This might also explain why Twilight didn't use any other of her own spells (only using the most effective in combat spells she was familiar with, avoiding the distraction of trying something she didn't know as well).  And further, if you consider that this theory of Cadence's magic relies on destiny, add to that that ponies' destiny and cutie mark seems to be connected, and also add that when Tirek ate their magic ponies temporarily lost their cutie marks, the 'love magic' may have had no valid targets at that time.

[Lyipheoryia]

1 minute ago, DerpRavener said:

 

Possible, but not necessarily true.

I agree that magic in the show at least often seems to have that fable theme of 'functioning however is needed for the story/author's purposes', so many times at least from a Doylist standpoint magic is simply inconsistent, but that isn't the only possible explanation here.

 

 

This argument only works if power is the only barrier to casting a spell.  I would argue that spells generally have at least two elements, power and technique.  It isn't enough to just have enough magic to fuel a spell, the spell still needs to be cast and that requires an understanding of how the spell works (even if it's just the bare minimum of 'do thing A, to cause event B').

 

Now, in the case where Twilight borrowed the other princess' power, note that at no point did she also borrow their knowledge.  So, it's entirely reasonable that she wasn't able to suddenly cast their spells, since that would be a key component.

 

The other thing that comes to mind is this: if we're looking at just the abilities inherent to their domains, we did see Twilight control the sun, and there didn't really seem to be any reason to use 'love magic'.  No one was in a state of making or breaking relationships, generally everyone was either fighting or incapacitated.  This might also explain why Twilight didn't use any other of her own spells (only using the most effective in combat spells she was familiar with, avoiding the distraction of trying something she didn't know as well).  And further, if you consider that this theory of Cadence's magic relies on destiny, add to that that ponies' destiny and cutie mark seems to be connected, and also add that when Tirek ate their magic ponies temporarily lost their cutie marks, the 'love magic' may have had no valid targets at that time.

I see what you mean~

 

Basically-instead of Tirek taking the Princess' Cutie Marks, Twilight did.  Tirek gained the magic of the ponies, but at no point did he gain their destiny or spells.  He simply gained more magic.  The same with Twilight, then.  

 

Cadance's magic isn't just destiny-we've seen what she did to the Crystal Empire with that shield.  Not only did she cover the entire empire to protect it from Sombra, she created an illusion of what it looked like outside the Kingdom.  Now, this could be an illusion-or it could be a figment of the past.  Is it possible that she pulled a memory from her past of what the Empire looked like to create the illusion?  Maybe.

[Polyblank]

On ‎27‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 10:27 AM, Rosewind said:

Interesting theorycrafting there. She moves the sun because magic.

Er..

Ahh...

LEAVE THIS THREAT UNBELIEVER!

In all seriousness, this is a good point. What is magic? Can we explain it? it's an incredibly tough problem to chew because It's got no real world-equivalent... I considered the idea - Equus's material makeup contains magnetic qualities - but that opened up further problems. for every element to be magnetic, having a magnetic force alone would be plausible -as does everything on earth, but for all elements on Equus to have a huge enough charge that using - Oh wait, I'm blabbing. My point is that it's possible a unicorn's horn utilizes a negatively charged field that can be amplified around a positively charged object - and perhaps having the ability to change between positive and negative to manipulate matter to levitate or move by attracting it or repelling it. However, to be able to change their horn's electrons on a microscopic scale seems dubious to me, and I'm really stumped when it comes to teleportation or other spells past simple levitation - so I'll leave it to someone else to figure out.

 

 

On another hoof, on the subject of magic and cutie marks I do have a very interesting theory from a fimfiction story I'd recommend - Who is this lord tirek you speak of? Bucking nonsense had a way of describing magic in relation to cutie marks.

Magic, for those of you who don't know, has two modes of attainment.  The first is the Instructive, the other is the Instinctive.  Instructive magic requires that one study for years and years to master a large number of spells.  This means that one has a great number of spells available, but it means that you have to spend a great deal of time learning and memorizing spells.  Unless you have some sort of eidetic memory or something, it's unlikely you'll be able to remember all of the spells you've ever learned after studying them.  Worse, being a wizard becomes a young person's game, since a failing memory caused by going senile can strip a wizard of his powers very easily.

"The second method, the Instinctive, is the method that ninety-nine percent of current magic users prescribe to, including most unicorns.  See, when a unicorn earns his or her mark, it is because they used their magic for the first time.  Often, they'll use their magic for something that relates to their overall special talent.  Thing is, they'll learn to instinctively cast a small number of spells, but, and this is key, they'll remember those spells easily for their entire lives.  Even if their memory starts to go, an Instinctive magic user will still retain the ability to cast spells, because they know their small number of spells better than they know their ABC's.  All magic users, even the ones who become Instructive, start out as Instinctives, and still retain that quality at their core.

Bruce Lee once said that he didn't fear the man who had practiced a thousand kicks once, but rather the man who practiced one kick a thousand times.  An Insructive mage may have a broad general knowledge of how to cast a wide number of spells, but an Instinctive mage typically has perfect mastery over the few spells that they know by the time that they reach adulthood."

So in light of this theory I'd support, Twilight is given an instinctive knowledge of the spells in relation to the other princesses Cutie marks, because the magic they give her is presumably that instinctive knowledge (Hence why their cutie marks are no longer present) This is why she is able to the move the moon without practicing for an immense period of time or having to learn it - she already knows it because the knowledge/instinctive spell is inside her now. I'd assume twilight has the ability to use all the princess spells, but is actually pretty smart and chooses to stick with her known magic. This is because Twilight has instinct but not memory, she knows how to do these spells but has no idea what their affects will be until she's cast them - it's like playing with a cannon in the dark. Twilight knows she could accidentally bring the sun crashing down on the planet.

Derp Ravener's objection is definitely a good point - I did consider it but I wanted to keep a more comparable statistical report. The whole idea of the sun being the same size as the moon is genius though, and does make the whole distribution of power between the two a whole lot more logical. I don't actually see how Cadence's power of love works .

AN ALICORN WHO CAN MOVE THE GODAMN MOON.

AN ALICORN THAT CAN MOVE THE ENTIRE SUN.

AN ALICORN THAT'S JUST AN ALICORN BECAUSE MONEY.

AN ALICORN THAT ... gets power from chemical reactions inside horse brains?

...Cool...

[RexDraco]

Well if we are going to talk magic we can't leave put Discord right?

Going to have to bring in good old quantam mechanics which kicks native physics in the face. We must accept that 'Equus' is a planet and planets do weird things, be it be composed completely of silicon or silicon based life, or have an ocean of mercury. Adhering to the idea that magic is science and that scirncr fiction, more ofrwn than not, wventually becomes reality: we must take into account the three great laws of science fiction.

#1
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

 

#2
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

 

#3
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

 

Number one can be represented by either Discord or Starswirl the Bearded. This idea represents Psychological Science and Sociologt. Mind over matter. Taking human accounts as a comparable medium they are a powerful, clever apecies. They can, litwrally, do anything they put their mind to. A body electrocuted does not leap back several hundred feed due to the shock, but the powerful muscles throwing them back. Their minds put a limitation on this so the body isn't harmed or destroyed. In that same denial of something being possible shows a social limotation, an idea that it *will* not be done because of moral values or belief that there is a limit to the science. 

 

And as we all know there is no limit to what science can do.

 

Two is introduced by Twilight who studies, creates theories and, lastly hypothesises. Using these critical functions of science she tests the concepts, treating them as physical manifestations rather than metaphysical. Given recent discoveries in science of parallel dimensions and string theory (movies such as Interstellar partake in the visual representation of said theory) it can be said that the 'magic' in Equus is science, just a different branch of it.

 

As three states, yes. When one cannot believe the state of a scientific advancement the first response is typically: SORCERY! BURN THE WITCH! For obvious reasons. But in Equus, as mentioned, it is a science simply named magic. 

 

Controlling the subatomic atoms that control the universe is an abilities all ponies have, but the extent changes by species. Earth ponies can manipulate the surface particles in a type of geomancy. Unicorn can use something near mental or psionic control with their horns. Pegasus use their wings to channel these changes.

 

Discord is the king of quantum mechanics. He is old enough to know how to change, see and move these things around at his leisure because he has the age and power to.

 

I always assumed that if the ponies have to move their celestial bodies because the magic to move them was lost. I believe they exist in a plane similar to Nirn (see the Elderscrolls). Nirn is a planet that exists on a multi level plane. Their starlit sky, sun and moon are only observable because magic, where the planet doesn't rotate, but instead these celestial bodies move into place on their plane where it is observable through the thin plane that separates the planets. 

 

Planets do weird things. The universe isn't flat, so curve and light can do all manner of interesting things. It is generally how I treat Discord's magic. It isn't considered Pony Magic because it is far more advanced that it is "foreign". There is also the matter that not only ponies use magic, so it may have to do with the flow of energy on Equus' surface or the planes in general. The sun and moon may have lost a large source of magic at a certain point as before the sisters ruled Equestria it is stated that unicorns (whom exhausted themselves doing so) were tasked with moving the sun and moon (see Journal of the Two Sisters).

My two bits.

[PlanckHorseshoe]

Sorry, Equestria is flat... XD

 

I really know very few about Equestrian cosmology, but we can see that nature behaves very different from the real world, I can quote the pegasus crafting the weather, for example. Equestrian sun seems to have a different nature and mass of ours, and we even don't know if Equestria is flat or a globe. If Celestial could generate gravity to move a sim like ours, she would have other especial powers, like contracting the time-space to travel very fast to other places, destroy enemies using the gravity, pull a meteor into them, and so on.