Counting and coins

[Lerian]

So threads about money in Equestria got me thinking about a historically earlier event. Counting. Obviously the real reason ponies count in base 10 is the younger human audience but how could this come about 'in world'?

WATCH IN AWE as I justify/crowbar a group of hoofed quadrupeds deciding to count in the same way as a bunch of ten digit humans. Then bandy about some of your own ideas and thoughts, if you feel like it.

Having seen how super serious some threads (e.g. politics) get just a reminder to keep it light. It's all headcanon here guys! Yes I know there are some massive leaps of social change.

So the need for counting is basically the same as ours. Initially it would have been 'Mr Ed' style hoof tapping, counting out the things you wanted. As this can get long winded they adopted a system where each leg meant a number and a nod of the head rounded it out to five. They're not dancing a jig, if you wanted three apples a tap of your rear right...

Tap front right - One*

Tap front left - Two

Tap rear right - Three

Tap rear left - Four

So far they are happily trading and talking in fives until somepony comes up with the idea of using bits of metal to indicate value, beyond the basic value of the metal itself. (Currency). Two types of coin are minted in whatever metal(s) are considered valuable at the time, hooves, taps or bits (of metal) (1 unit) and heads or nods (5 units). **

Before/during/after this the two princesses start their rule, and as they are accepted, the currency undergoes a slight change. We now have hooves, taps or bits (1 unit), 'crowns' as a princess head or nod (5 units) and 'royals', two princess heads or two crowns (10 units). In honour of the two sisters the coins are now only produced in gold and silver+ but as silver is less valuable (true in Equestria?) it is a further snub to Luna. ++

Time passes with this way of measuring and counting being used until the time of nightmare moon and with NMM/Luna's banishment silver stops being used for coinage and falls out of favour in fashion. Another thousand years passes with this method of measurement using only gold coins until we get to the modern world (Season one) with the idea of ones, fives and tens all being a tangible 'thing' that is used for counting/measuring and currency.

Will silver+ start making a comeback with Luna's return?

*I chose this leg as the 'basic unit' on the unfounded assumption that most ponies are 'right hoofed'

** Basic coins have the lord or local rulers crest, racism causes value to fluctate between tribes where trade exists at all.

+ Or possibly the black material (obsidian, onyx?) that Luna uses in her jewellery.

++ Coins have the cutie mark of the relevant princess as the 'head'. Depending on the society of the time could wilful damage of the coins be considered harm to the royal (treason) as it was in the real world?

[frenzyhero]

This...this is making perfect sense.

So...you deserve...

[kamerad]

Oh boy, currency! My favourite!

Nodding of the head is also used in Equestria as a confirmation or declarative gesture, so it would be easily confused—imagine if somepony counted to four and then nodded to themselves!

Base 4 is so much more fun to think about anyway. :U

On silver/Luna's competitive currency: silver was generally driven out by gold because its price is much more volatile; the Spanish discovery of boatloads of silver in Bolivia cheapened it so that it could be used for more mundane things (you've heard of silverware...but probably not goldware). Onyx is also not sufficiently malleable to be divisible as currency; recall that currency is 1) valuable, 2) durable, 3) divisible and 4) transportable. Onyx meets only 3 of these criteria.

It's tempting to think of apples as an Equestrian currency, but unfortunately they meet only one of the criteria. Although backing a currency with, say, a quart of Sweet Apple Acres cider seems more reasonable. :U

[Lerian]

Very good point about the nodding, will have to find another gesture (head based as I used it to lead onto crowns and royals?) in order to continue the base 4-base 10 crowbar!

I also agree that different base counting makes for interesting stories and games. I had the 'Extinct elder race' in one of my games count in base 16, (two fingers and two opposable thumbs for four unit hands and four arms for base 16 counting.) Also totally understand the decision of not having to waste episode time, with reminders to keep the audience counting in base 4. Come to think of it, other than the odd use of binary I can't think of differing base counting being used in mainstream shows or films....

Thanks for the reminder about gems as currency, I knew there was a reason that their use in fantasy games (1000gp diamond anyone?) always weirded me out. In truth I was speculating about Lunas black jewellery. It would obviously be valuable as it is not only jewellery but also royal jewellery but is it gem based or is there a valuable sparkly black metal on Equestria that we don't know about? I used silver due to it's links to the moon, I'm guessing on its value 'in world' (more/less/the same as gold?) Arguably more valuable than the multiple gems that are just lying around* and in common usage...

Liking the idea of using cider for semi-barter/ additional thank you but it may be because of the time in my life when a 'crate' (24 cans) of the persons favourite drink was the standard unit for people who did you a favour.

*Or growing as implied(?) in 'Secret of my excess'? (Pictures serf class dragons on huge gem farms.....)

To repeat my OP spoiler and clarify a bit about myself. Not trying to poo-poo ideas or go 'Graaaagh, my headcanon is the one true way'. This is the stuff I love about worlds, this kind of conversation or the lack of ability to have it is what makes or breaks SF and fantasy for me. I love to think in-character and in-world about why things happen. Why are pony buildings boxes? (Go on a public minecraft server/forum and have a similar cenversation). Why is our 'first structure' usually boxy? Is it just 'That's the way bricks are shaped'?

How would a society react to 'immortal'(?) rulers? Seeing as it's common to use IRL events to influence pony thinking.... Celestia alone has been ruling your nation since 1010AD. Prior to that both sisters were ruling for hundreds, possibly thousands of years. Think about all the conflicts and conquests, wars both national and international that would, or perhaps may not, have happened just in 'IRL Celestias' reign... Also I'll possibly get timespan thread going after work rather than de-railing counting / currency thread with these spoilered questions.

[Sparkleheart]

You know, when you started with the bit about each hoof representing a certain number, I thought you were going to go with them using taps to add and produce larger numbers. Then arriving at base 10 somehow because that's the number you would make with a single tap of each hoof. (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10)

Just another thought.

[Lerian]

'1+2+3+4=10' Nice! Didn't even occur to me That way you could use a hop/bounce for 10's which would eliminate the ambiguity of nodding.

It leaves the princesses influence over currency to material and anti-forgery/'this is official' cutie-mark stamp but maybe that's enough.

Thanks for that!