Comparing Unicorn/Alicorn power levels

[Discord]

an interesting thought that comes with Unicorns being able to control the sun and moon as shown in the latest episode

these processes are clearly hard programed in somewhere and just need the right magic 'key' to 'wind the clock' so to speak

at least that's how I look at it

the point this raises however is do Alicorns necessarily have more magic then Unicorns? I think not. Sure Celestia is powerful but I think that can be attributed as a direct result of immortality, think of all the magic books she's read in comparison to Twilight

this latest episode has in my opinion lowered the apparent power capability of Alicorns in Canon

before we have the argument that it's lots of unicorns doing it we saw one unicorn's horn light up at that part of the play, there was no struggle(feigned or otherwise)

hence Raising the sun is not hard

hence Alicorns aren't necessarily magically overpowered (other then the obvious example of having all race's abilities and being seemingly immortal)

also someone who 'knows the inner workings of the clock' can disrupt the workings of it (NMM) which is why Celestia keeps the spell/'key' a secret from the unicorn masses. This also secures her position as Royalty, a closely guarded secret

I see Alicorns as a combination of all 3 races. not a combination of 2 races and overpowered unicorns

sure their more powerful but that's because of the immortality thing, they have had time to learn/develop their magical powers

[knight]

An interesting thought, actually, but since it was actually a cardboard moon the 'single unicorn' moved, it's hard to really say for sure what happened in those ages.

I think, through ages and ages passing, that unicorns may have grown weaker in their magic, to the point where they AREN'T as powerful as an immortal alicorn, because truly, they don't HAVE to be. They develop therir magic for what they do in life, and it, essentially, ends there. I mean, why would they learn something they don't have to do? And think of all the generations and blood mixing that has occurred between the original founding of Equestria, and the unicorns that exist today. The unicorns of that day and age were PURE unicorn. Where every unicorn came from two unicorn parents--but with the joining of the species, unicorns would have started mixing blood, and straining out the true magic in their blood.

Thus, you have weaker unicorns in modern-day equestria. Maybe that's what Blueblood is. A descendant of Princess Platinum. A PURE unicorn. That would kind of make sense that a royal line would remain pure, and it'd kind of clarify his own title as a Prince.

[Angie Cakes]

this latest episode has in my opinion lowered the apparent power capability of Alicorns in Canon

before we have the argument that it's lots of unicorns doing it we saw one unicorn's horn light up at that part of the play, there was no struggle(feigned or otherwise)

that part of the episode was done with the fake sets, not the flashback scenes. I'd say that's just the bad acting of the background ponies. I think it probably takes the effort of very many unicorns to raise the sun.

I do agree with you in that they could be more powerful because they're immortal and have had time to study.

ah, maybe the reason why the unicorns raised the sun and moon in the play is because Luna and Celestia are still young and not powerful enough to do it on their own yet.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Ever since the mane six went to defeat nightmare moon, I've always thought that Celestia and Luna were in the same order of magnitude in terms of power. Nightmare moon stunned the three guards momentarily without much trouble, but she never displayed world shaping, cosmic power like she so often has in fan fics. I think part of the reason why Celestia and Luna have such an easy time with the sun and the moon is because thats their special talent more than it is because they're winged unicorns.

I can't begin to state how much I dislike the notion of racial purity being a deciding factor. If anything, I would expect ponies to experience heterosis (hybrid vigor) like any other species. All three tribes have their own magic, not just unicorns. Attempts at establishing racial purity in real life tended to result in inbred nobles who suffered from health problems.

The way I figured it originally, the sun and the moon were easier to move than simply rotating the planet because their magic was uniform. Turning the whole planet would involve grabbing ahold of all the different magic fields that are created by all the different living things at once. (why can't I hold all this magic?)

[weesh]

I work backwards on this issue myself. Furthermore, my post delves into the spiritual so feel free to skip it.

I see Celestia as a picture of God* because of many of their similarities:

1. Powerful but personal, loving and forgiving
   
2. Ageless but up to date
   
3. Teaching but not controlling (allows mistakes, and for them to be growth opportunities)
   
4. Serious when necessary, but also enjoying humor
   
5. Accessible but not breathing down your neck
   
6. Protective but not smothering
   
7. Does not always appear logical but is proven trustworthy
   

Viewing Celestia from a spiritual perspective tends to elevate her rare pony-type. In my mind, alicorns necessarily have higher potential than a unicorn. I don't know enough about Luna to figure out how she would fit into this viewpoint, and I think the grey alicorn in Twilight's fear-driven daydream is irrelevant.

*Explanation: I see her as a picture of God in the same way that I see Marlin as a picture of God's love for us in "Finding Nemo". Such pictures are useful in that they help us to understand what is hard to wrap your mind around otherwise.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

1: Celestia couldn't defeat Discord or Nightmare Moon without the Elements of Harmony.

2: Celestia was connected to the Elements of Harmony up until the mane six took control of them.

3: The mane six took control of the Elements of Harmony when they were recovered from the castle of the royal pony sisters.

4: Nightmare Moon was unable to stop the mane six from reaching the castle before they were connected to the elements.

5: Therefore, Celestia is less powerful than six ponies.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Celestia is totally awesome, cool and perhaps even radical, but I always got the impression that she was still mostly on the same level as ordinary ponies. (who, to be fair, are rather magical themselves.)

[weesh]

1. It never says that Celestia couldn't defeat Nightmare moon without the elements of harmony. It says "reluctantly, she used the EoH..." Perhaps she used the elements of harmony to ensure that she did not hurt Luna while she was banishing her.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

We're still talking about the same order of magnitude though. Nightmare Moon operated on the same playing field as six ponies, and Celestia was unable to stop Nightmare Moon with her own power. Nightmare Moon was ready to end all pony life, so its not like she was holding back. Its hard to imagine a creator deity not being able to create a suitable prison for six of her mortal creations.

[Doc Hoof MD]

hi hi

We're still talking about the same order of magnitude though. Nightmare Moon operated on the same playing field as six ponies, and Celestia was unable to stop Nightmare Moon with her own power. Nightmare Moon was ready to end all pony life, so its not like she was holding back. Its hard to imagine a creator deity not being able to create a suitable prison for six of her mortal creations.

I like to think that the EoH protected them from NMM's magic. NMM managed to send Celestia away somewhere and bring about eternal darkness all by herself. Also I don't think NMM intended to end all pony life. She wanted them to appreciate her night as much as they appreciated Celestia's day. Sure they all would have died at some point along the line but I don't think she planned on ending the world.

What I got from the HWE episode is that the unicorns were in charge of raising the sun and the moon long ago. How many did it take to do so?

Also what if Celestia couldn't take on discord because of the nature of discord's power. Perhaps her and Luna needed the Elements of Harmony to nullify discord's power of chaos.

[weesh]

We're still talking about the same order of magnitude though.

Your argument is:

A > B and C > B

Therefore:

A is not much greater than C

This is a non-sequitur, as Celestia could be 100 times as powerful as the main 6, and the inequalities would still work.

We have never seen A (Celestia) defeated, but we have seen C (mane 6) defeated by Discord. It took Celestia to break them out of their hypnosis.

Whose to say that Celestia couldn't have defeated Discord again? By ceasing the EoH, she may have been able, but then she would have broken the bond from the mane 6, and stolen a growth opportunity from them.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I think you mixed up one of the arguments. My argument goes like this:

If A ≤ B and B ≤ C then A ≤ C,

Where A = Celestia, B = Nightmare Moon, and C = Mane Six.

This is not a logical fallacy or a non-sequitur. Its a direct Transitive Relation.

Celestia stated that her bond with the Elements wasn't broken until the mane six retrieved them from the old castle. The sixth element didn't even appear until then. I take that to mean that the mane six overcame Nightmare Moon's efforts to stop them on their own.

Celestia stated herself that the mane six were able to utilize the elements of harmony to their full extent where as she was unable to do so herself.

It was Twilight Sparkle's own words that broke Discord's hypnosis, she was the one who wrote all of those friendship reports and she was the one who made the memories to remember.

The opening story in episode one states that the Elements of Harmony are the most powerful magic in Equestria, not Celestia's or Luna's unicorn magic.

[weesh]

Your logic is based on the fact that NMM is of equal or greater power than Celestia? I do not agree with that statement.

Where did the elements of harmony come from? Could Celestia have created them?

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Simple fact is that Celestia could not do what the mane six did to free her sister.

Celestia said that she and Luna discovered the Elements of Harmony just before they rose up to defeat Discord. So wherever the elements came from, they predate the royal sisters.

[weesh]

Celestia said that she and Luna discovered the Elements of Harmony just before they rose up to defeat Discord. So wherever the elements came from, they predate the royal sisters.

Ah, really? I've still only seen that episode once and I had forgotten that they explained any of the origin.

Simple fact is that Celestia could not do what the mane six did to free her sister.

That is a strong point, but not so strong that you should base logical extrapolations on it. I have several weak explanations that could explain it. These aren't good, but neither do I believe they have to be because all that is necessary is a little doubt.

• The thousand years could have changed a lot in Celestia or Nightmare Moon or the elements. Celestia may have modified the power herself so that when they were next used on Luna, the magic would be successful
  
• It was probably always Celestia's plan to bring Luna back into relationship with her. The banishing was the cosmic example of the time-out chair so that when Luna was broken, she would have learned her lesson.
  
• Celestia trained Twilight, possibly with this task in mind since the beginning.
  
• Celestia could have saved Luna herself, but this was the perfect opportunity to allow Twilight to step up.