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So I've been looking at Dragon Ball Z through a DC Comics shared universe perspective


CommanderPonyShep

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Back when I was a kid and first watched DBZ, I thought that if Goku was going to be Superman just because he shared the same powers and origin-story as him, then that would make the numerous Z-Warriors his personal Justice League. But, as I watched the first story-arc, and later story-arcs like it, I've been proven wrong time and again. Repeatedly, many of Goku's friends, even Vegeta, all get their butts handed to them just as an excuse to demonstrate each new main-villain's powers, as well as to tell the audiences that only Goku, and in some ways Gohan at the end of the Cell Games, were the only ones to stop them. As a result, I became upset that Goku's friends were being rendered obsolete and useless, even though Superman's Justice League friends don't end up getting left behind in-terms of character-development and relevancy to the story, if not power levels.

But then I wrote a thread about it on some message boards, and numerous people told me that Dragon Ball Z was not the same as the DC Comics universe, even if their respective heroes shared the same backstory and powers. Technically, American comics are not written the same way as manga, and not just because the latter have endings while the former barely do. American comics like Marvel and DC are shared universes, which means they have no designated main-protagonist. Every superhero is the main-protagonist of their respective franchises, which means that when they cross over to form teams like the Justice League or the Avengers, there isn't going to be a main-protagonist because it's a crossover. Sure, there are designated leaders amongst those teams, like Superman for the Justice League, and Captain America and Iron Man for the Avengers. But even then, the leaders themselves are not main-protagonists of those two team-up stories, because every other member of those two teams are main-protagonists of their own storylines.

Japanese manga, on the other hand, are not shared universes themselves. They are mostly self-contained, and as a result do have main-protagonists alongside a supporting cast. And usually, in manga, a supporting cast's job is to help the hero reach his goal, namely by fighting henchmen in one-on-one duels so that the hero could focus on the main-villain alone. Otherwise, if the hero fought those henchmen, they would have softened him up enough for their bad-guy leader to finish him off. Dragon Ball Z was no exception, despite it co-existing in the same universe as that other Akira Toriyama manga, Dr. Slump (they only crossed over once for a little while, and then never did it again). Even if Vegeta was the one supporting character who took up most of the spotlight, due to his story-arc of him trying to surpass Goku out of jealousy while being one of the good guys, he was still just that: A supporting character. That meant he and the other supporting characters handled the minions or other low-level bad-guys, while Goku himself fought the main-villain himself, without fear of being softened up by the henchmen.

It's what also describes One Piece. To ensure that every member of the Straw Hat Pirate crew was useful, Eiichiro Oda usually pitted each individual crew member against a certain powerful henchman, so that he or she could clear a path for Luffy to reach the main villain. Luffy may have had a history of enduring enough punishment to kill an entire army, but he would have been softened up by the henchmen just enough for the main-villain of each story-arc to finish him off. Which was why he had his crew, to handle the henchmen so that they would not soften Luffy.

And that's the problem with me right now. I've been approaching manga through an American comic shared universe perspective. I kept thinking that, because Japan has manga, that it means they do shared universes just as much as American comic publishers. The reason I kept getting upset over the uselessness of Goku's supporting cast was because of my American perspective, the idea that if Goku was Superman, then his friends were his Justice League, even though they actually weren't because (a) they were useless and killed off too often, and (b) they were not main-characters of their own franchises the same way American comic-book heroes were.

And, it doesn't just apply to manga, as well. Live action, team-based tokusatsu shows like Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers were not shared universes, in that each Power Ranger was not a main-character of his or her franchise. This is most especially true when you look at each Red Ranger, who was often designated the leader, and therefore would be considered the main-protagonist himself. Meanwhile, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles may have originated as an American comic itself, but it was not part of any shared universe I know of, nor was it a shared universe in and of itself, despite it crossing over with that other series, Usagi Yojimbo. Not only that, but the TMNT also had their own leader, Leonardo, who would also be designated the main-protagonist as a result, with Donatello and Michelangelo as his "sidekicks", and Raphael as the "anti-hero". Therefore, Leonardo would most likely be the one to fight Shredder in a one-on-one duel, while Raph, Don, and Mikey handled the low-level henchmen.

Toy based franchises with large ensemble casts, similar to My Little Pony, are also the same way. He-Man, Thundercats, G.I. Joe, and Transformers do not exist in any pre-existing shared universe, and are not shared universes themselves, despite He-Man branching off with a spin-off series starring his distaff counterpart, She-Ra. Not only that, but each of those franchises also designated their respective teams into main-protagonist (He-Man, Lion-O, Duke, and Optimus Prime) and supporting cast (Masters of the Universe, Thundercats, G.I. Joe, and Autobots).

Which leads to one question: Why was I able to discern He-Man, Thundercats, G.I. Joe, Transformers, TMNT, and Power Rangers as separate, self-contained universes, but saw Dragon Ball Z through a DC Comics-style shared universe perspective? If I were to guess, it was probably the fact that Goku was technically Superman in-terms of origin story and powers, while He-Man, Lion-O (who ironically also shared the same origin story as Superman), Duke, Optimus Prime, Leonardo, and the average Red Ranger were not. But the answer just isn't definitive.

So really, perhaps I should stop with the Dragon Ball Z rants. I need to wean myself off of that mindset that Dragon Ball Z was the same way as the DC Comics universe, even though neither of them were the same as each other except Superman and Goku's shared powers and origin-story. Hell, I may need to apply that to My Little Pony as well; Twilight's friends may have turned her into an alicorn princess and helped her unlock the blue box to receive Rainbow Power, but Twilight herself is and will always be the main-protagonist and leader. She isn't part of a shared universe, and her friends are not main-characters of their own respective franchises. It's one of the reasons why the Twilight/Tirek fight worked for most people, because it showed that even though Twilight was a smaller part of a much larger universe, as her friends constantly reinforced, she was still the main-character and main-focus of the entire My Little Pony series, and will always be, and that I need to get rid of that shared universe perspective to fully grasp this concept.

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So really, perhaps I should stop with the Dragon Ball Z rants.

We would all very much appreciate this yes <3

And yes, Twilight is the Main character, it's going to always be slightly slanted to focus on her =/

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" Hell, I may need to apply that to My Little Pony as well; Twilight's friends may have turned her into an alicorn princess and helped her unlock the blue box to receive Rainbow Power, but Twilight herself is and will always be the main-protagonist and leader. She isn't part of a shared universe, and her friends are not main-characters of their own respective franchises. "

Correct. Now, I would love it if that were not the case. One reason I enjoy Marvel is I think the Avengers are all pretty even with one another and their individual titles feel important. Heck, Captain America is the least super powered of them all yet he is considered the leader. But in the end, MLP is one universe, one vision, with a mane character who is supported by her friends. Until the Applejack spinoff. Then all bets are off!

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We would all very much appreciate this yes <3

And yes, Twilight is the Main character, it's going to always be slightly slanted to focus on her =/

Yeah, unlike the Avengers and the Justice League. Even though both teams have Captain America and Superman, respectively, as leaders, neither of them are main-protagonists of those two team-up books the same way they are in their own respective, individual storylines and franchises. DBZ, on the other hand, is not a shared universe the same way as Marvel and DC, which means none of Goku's friends were protagonists of their own franchises, so of course Goku would receive tons of focus.

As a result, I need to stop looking at DBZ through a Marvel/DC-style shared universe perspective. Otherwise, I won't be satisfied with what I actually got, and at least appreciate it for some of its slimmers of goodness, from Vegeta's story-arc, to all of Earth's entire population powering up Goku's Spirit Bomb to destroy Buu, which was a team effort.

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I'd like to point out that many mangaka used shared universes within their own works. And there is a company whom uses the shared universe paradigm [Clamp]. The unique thing about Marvel and DC is that they are shared universes from the start, across many different writers [similar to Clamp, and I am unsure of any other known company that might make the number equal between the two]. But really, those are the only two COMPANIES. And not all of their comics published are shared universe. Hell, they have multiple universes which don't intersect. So not all the comics are even within the same universe of the same hero or villain. And if there were then everyone in Marvel would have been killed by the Punisher (this really happened, he killed every hero and villain (himself included) in an alternate universe timeline).

Furthermore, comparing multiple different paradigms is a fools errand in the first place. Manga is very different WITHIN MANGA, Marvel is different from DC, and comparing east to west is just ridiculous. Even for cartoons they are structured differently between them.

Also, Shep, you could easily make the argument that certain story arcs ARE focused on individual heroes even within those groups. True, when they are facing the big-bad it is the team [usually] acting together. But individual villains? Not so much. Say for instance Hydra threatens the world. It will have a far greater focus on Cap, rather than the rest of the team. Will they still be involved? You are certain they will, but since that is Cap's biggest nemesis [along with the Red Skull] he has a personal vendetta with them, and thus he will be far more the focus. I remember reading Justice League comics where I was like "Wait, hold up, what are the rest of the league even doing?" This often happens with Darkseid and Superman. The rest of the League involved? Yes, but Superman almost always steals the show for the big showdown. And anyone else gets involved? Usually gets killed or defeated.

You have a strange habit of comparing, apples to oranges to grapes to bananas to kiwis. This makes everything convoluted and hard to follow [and nearly nonsensical]. Comparing huge comprehensive universes to a small contained one like MLP doesn't make sense. DBZ was in total 444 episodes [not including GT since that was post]. You had so much history and back story by the time you made it to Z there was a reason for almost everything. And as it progressed it succumb to Shonen Syndrome [main character having a power trip]. On a long enough timeline any shonen series that is action based will likely succumb to that. It is VERY rare that it doesn't. I could probably count the ones that don't on my hands. Marvel and DC have been building [and rebuilding, and tearing down and starting over and... oh hell it's messy...] for the past 70 or so years. And between them have just as many differences as similarities [mostly stemming from HOW their heroes are]. And every mangaka is different as is every publisher.

Comparing media is fine when discussing themes and tropes. But using one franchise to the next to prove or disprove validity is never going to work especially when they are so different. And for the record, yes, I would agree that as an overall medium and thematically MLP is in fact closer to Sailor Moon than anything else, that ONE fight, visually and stylistically was far closer to DBZ than Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon was VERY formulaic with their fights and none of them was anything like that fight between Twilight and Tirek. Though honestly if we really wanted a proper comparison we'd have to go to another Sentai franchise where it had a main character with a team, and that main character would be faced with a similar situation. Sailor Moon never really had that.

So if you want to create discussion between media, that's fine, but don't use your personal opinion on any of them to validate or invalidate anything. It just doesn't work out nicely. People have varying opinions. Use what you have to make a topic of discussion interesting, rather than disregarding one thing or another or making things up.

That said, I've said my peace and won't be responding any further.

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Snip.

Well, this whole "shared universe" mindset was what got me into disliking Dragon Ball Z. Again, when I first saw DBZ, I had that mindset that the Z-Warriors would be Goku's personal Justice League, and they weren't because DBZ wasn't a shared universe like DC Comics, and that the supporting cast were not main-characters of their own franchises. And, it's literally a true story!

Also, what about the Twilight/Chrysalis fight in the comics? That can be as much comparable to the Twilight/Tirek fight as DBZ, due to sharing some of the same circumstances, like Twilight's friends reduced to states of helplessness, Twilight getting her magic enhanced by an external source, and a big magic fight. Not only that, but I literally had no problem with the Twilight/Chrysalis fight, yet had a bigger problem with that same scenario in the S4 finale! Why? I have no stinking clue, though it mostly attributes to the Twilight/Tirek fight being compared to DBZ but not the Twilight/Chrysalis fight.

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