Princess Celestia

[teygrim]

I'm curious as to what are everyones thoughts of Princess Celestia. I mean, some of the things she does don't seem very nice (eg, sending her little sister to the moon for 1000 years for having a tantrum, getting the mane six to ruin the Grand Galloping Gala for everyone else for the lulz). How do you guys explain her behaviour and what is your assesment of her personality.

For me, she reminds me of one of those mothers who tries too hard to be BFFs with her daughter. I feel she that she tries too hard to be "just one of the girls" and completely ignores her responsibilities as a mentor/monarch. I think this behaviour probably stems from a lack of self esteem and lack of friends.

So, what do you guys think?

[Rannil]

At the one side I see Princess Celestia, as a ruler in a near utopia with total control, getting bored. She doesn't seem to want to be friends with the mane cast, but more have fun with them. We have seen many times that she starts a problem, mainly by withholding something (whether items, or information). In case of the Ticket Master she send 2 tickets, even though she had know there were at least 5 friends (Elements of Harmony) Twilight had made, and Spike. I am pretty sure she was watching it and like us viewers, having fun. Also the entire "phoenix problem", taking bird that is clearly sick looking to a city full of ponies that never seen a phoenix. She probably also had known Fluttershy is an animal friend and Celestia did know Fluttershy was the element of kindness.

Look close at her facial expression, it betrays a friendly smirk, like silent laughter. She is enjoying what the ponies does, but as a ruler can't laugh out loud. Doesn't stop her from making the poor ponies do more comedy. The internet hasn't dubbed her Trollestia for no reason, and a lot of the internet pictures work because she has that smirk, that little spark in her eyes.

At the other side we see a ruler that knows what she is doing. Whether it be for good or bad, she clearly knows her place in the world and how ponies react to her. We don't see a lot of her responsibilities in the show, but as we can gather from Twilight Sparkle, she doesn't have a lot of time for "her faithful student".

One of the most interesting things I spotted was in the Cutie Mark Chronicles, is that most ponies see there mark appear of find it on their own. Yet Twilight Sparkle gets her pointed out, by the princess, by the horn of the princess, the one that shoots magic and stuff. Also Twilight Sparkle's cutie mark is a symbol for the elements of harmony and Princess Celestia was quite eager to get this pony as her student. Whether Celestia did or not not place Twilight Sparkle's cutiemark is questionable, but Princess Celestia did recognize it and did realize this was a pony that was going to stop Nightmare Moon. She was preparing and she knew what she was doing, all the day up to the defeat of Nightmare Moon, she had it all planned.

Also I don't think the conflict was "Luna hving a tantrum.", our sources are small, but it seems both rulers were the same size back then, and something in either being saved from evil/trapped in the moon/Celestia's magic has reverted Luna to a younger stage. Maybe to get a second chance at learning as a child. If you assume Celestia has been planning her return for a long time, we can only expect that the conflict was a lot larger, and only a swift strike of Celestia prevented an ever lasting night.

Tl:DR I guess Princess Celestia is a bored ruler that lacks enemies (and even if she had enemies she seems to be competent enough to quickly deal with them). So she just uses the manecast for some fun, maybe because she already used them as pawns to defeat Nightmare Moon.

[teygrim]

@Rannil

Wow, now I feel embarassed; because that makes so much sense that I can't believe that I didn't see it before. I guess I was thinking too much of what a mentor should be that I failed to see the obvious conclusion that she's just taking the piss. I still think that what she did to Luna was excessive though because if the mane six could use the elements of harmony to bring her back to her senses I don't see why a God-like pony like Celestia couldn't have done the same. At the very least she could have brought her sister back a little earlier. One thousand years is one hell of a time-out.

[Rannil]

To be honest, we never have seen Princess Celestia in a true mentor role. She nods friendly when Twilight Sparkle, or her friends, gives a report, but ti lacks evaluation. Also the shows portrays Twilight as really wanting to have and be near the Princess, while the Princess is always busy or some chaos happens and even if the Princess isn't busy she never stays long. In those cases its more like "the mother that always busy" then a mentor, who should have time for her "Most Faithful Student" (but she has time for pranks? Hmhm).

As for the entire Luna thing, barely anything in the show talks about the conflict, except a ponytale book, so... Say if I would write a story about that conflict, I would portray Princess Celestia cornered, out of options and she needs time. She would lack said 5 ponies to carry the elements of harmony, so she can only use the magic one to increase her powers, or though it out and hope such ponies will arise in the endless night. Or something like that. Anyway she choose to use magic to buy herself time and give the ponies peace, but the spell was a bit longer then expected.

But your vision may vary. The internet loves the idea of Celestia putting Luna in the moon over something minor and based on the show it makes more sense then my idea.

[Skye]

To be honest, we never have seen Princess Celestia in a true mentor role. She nods friendly when Twilight Sparkle, or her friends, gives a report, but ti lacks evaluation. Also the shows portrays Twilight as really wanting to have and be near the Princess, while the Princess is always busy or some chaos happens and even if the Princess isn't busy she never stays long. In those cases its more like "the mother that always busy" then a mentor, who should have time for her "Most Faithful Student" (but she has time for pranks? Hmhm).

As for the entire Luna thing, barely anything in the show talks about the conflict, except a ponytale book, so... Say if I would write a story about that conflict, I would portray Princess Celestia cornered, out of options and she needs time. She would lack said 5 ponies to carry the elements of harmony, so she can only use the magic one to increase her powers, or though it out and hope such ponies will arise in the endless night. Or something like that. Anyway she choose to use magic to buy herself time and give the ponies peace, but the spell was a bit longer then expected.

But your vision may vary. The internet loves the idea of Celestia putting Luna in the moon over something minor and based on the show it makes more sense then my idea.

I suspect much of the 'reports' is to show that Twilight is making progress. It's not so much an evaluation or a test, but that she's learning. It's more for Twilight's benefit than Celestia's.

I think Luna was just as powerful as Celestia, and it was only because Celestia had the backing of powerful friends that put Luna in the moon for a thousand years, where Twilight would become available to free her and return her to a previous state before the corruption of Nightmare Moon.

[Leon K Fox]

I'm going to be honest, I really don't like Celestia. Her sense of humour is...well, questionable. She seems to find it funny that one of her subjects (Fluttershy) would get really worried about her pet. She *knew* from Twilight's letters that Fluttershy can't stand to see sick animals.

She *knew* she could have just left the bird at home to regenerate.

She *KNEW* that Fluttershy would grab the bird since she didn't seem to mind leaving the cage there.

Yet she still bought it anyway. Some people say it's funny, but I fail to see how letting them come to believe that her pet is DEAD is even moderatley funny, or the antics she pulled in the last episode. I really think for how little respect she seems to have for other people or her own important occasions (i.e The Gala) she should have someone equal to her in power to hold her the hell back, because there are times when you just can't trust she won't do something stupid. (Like putting her guests' lives in mortal danger for a laugh)

Harsh, but it's how I feel.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

She probably just banished Luna "for fun".

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

As Twilight says, expect the best, never assume the worst. While there's lots of different explanations for Celestia's behavior, I choose to imagine she has one that is good. She isn't a surrogate mother for Twilight at all, but she is a beloved teacher, the kind you might hang around after class to talk to or hug at the end of the school year before breaking for the summer. (or shake hands if you are a guy and that is more socially acceptable)

Twilight went from her first days in school all the way up to young adult under Celestia's supervision in Canterlot. We hear that Celestia trusts her completely, so I assume that Twilight earned that trust over time and as she grew up, Celestia knew that Twilight could take care of things on her own without the need for close guidance. She has given Twilight enough direction up to this point that Twilight is now self directed, and Celestia knows better than to stifle that motivation. Just a subtle touch here and there to keep things on track.

Her trip to Ponyville, if you were to look at it from an academia standpoint would be kind of like studying abroad, and the Princess is her sponsor. Twilight is so excited about spending time with Celestia because she's used to spending more time with her than she did during the time of the show and had some catching up to do. Every time Celestia came to visit, something unexpected happened, so it wasn't really her fault. Once I got up to post graduate work, most profs have would have a relatively hands off approach that I think Celestia is reminiscent of.

As for the Grand Galloping Gala, I don't think she organizes the grand galloping gala herself rather it is something that the nobles host and to which she is regularly expected to attend. And she did originally just send two tickets, one for Twilight and a guest. (usually means bring a date, or could have been for Spike) Of course she didn't mind having Twilight's friends come along either. Still, we never saw what happened after the mane six left, it could have been that most of the ponies present had a good laugh after the dust settled. At very least, they might have gone home with a better appreciation of peace and quiet. She can and does raise the sun every morning. I don't think anypony was ever in mortal danger from falling objects while Celestia was around.

Regarding Luna. As we saw in the old dusty tome, Celestia fought Luna all by herself. She didn't have five other friends to hold the other elements for her. Also, the whole 1000 years of imprisonment thing was very specific. It was the stars that eventually helped Luna break free, nothing less than an auspicious celestial event. I think Celestia knew what she was doing, but didn't have much of a choice. It was the best card of a bad hand so to speak.

Celestia is very powerful, but she isn't omnipotent, I have to assume that those guards aren't just for show. Don't forget that Nightmare Moon was powerful enough to defeat Celestia one on one (which she implicitly did, albeit did off-screen, in episode 1), and only with the Elements was Celestia able to stand a chance the first time around. Also, for two immortal beings, the passage of time might be a bit different. In addition, they mention that Luna was transformed into the monster Nightmare Moon, which to me implies that they weren't even entirely the same person. (Kind of like when any number of characters in LotR lost their heads because of the Ring's influence.)

Celestia suffered the pain of losing her little sister for those 1000 years too, which makes me think that she didn't do that on a whim. (all those fan comics love to show Celestia getting mad and banishing everything to the moon, but in episode 2 she did say that she had missed her sister while she was away.)

Regarding Philomena, I think Celestia fully intended to tell Fluttershy all about it but she got called away. Perhaps she expected Twilight to know what a Phoenix was and be able to fill in for her. (after all, Twilight is her protégé) Perhaps she brought Philomena along in that state specifically because everypony would enjoy watching the rebirth, had they known what it meant. Remember, it was Philomena that decided to ham it up for everyone, an act that she was scolded for by the Princess.

In summary, I think Celestia is a wise ruler that tries to make sure that her subjects don't get too dependent on her by making them work and think for themselves, but knows when to step in and intervene when things get out of hand. She cares deeply about all of her subjects, which makes it hard for her to focus on any one individual, and she has a playful attitude that is based on deep values of what is important in life.

You don't always get to decide what happens around you, but you always get to decide your point of view if you choose. When you are in a good mood, even a rainy day can be something grand.

[teygrim]

As Twilight says, expect the best, never assume the worst.

That's definitely a good lesson to learn, but I don't think I'm just assuming the worste, it's just that I'm having a lot of trouble expecting the best from Celestial given the way she's behaved up to this point. My real problem is with what she said at the end of the Grand Galloping Gala. I can see what the writers were going for (friends can make the worst of times seem pretty good) but the way Celestia framed it sounded more like: as long as you and your friends have a good time then who cares if you ruin things for everyone else. The only two explainations I could come up with for why she would say such a thing are that she was either ingratiating herself with the mane six or that she actually believed what she said. I chose to believe that the princess would never take such a mean spirited attitude but, after reading Rannil's response, I don't feel like I have a choice but to come to that conclusion.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I didn't see any reason to assume that Celestia was talking only about the mane six when she said it was the best Gala ever, since she specifically said it was the best Gala, not the best Night. We don't really know what happened at the Gala after they left, but a lot of time had passed between when Twilight first arrives at the donut shop and when Celestia arrives, since it is implied that they went and did all the stuff Spike suggested, which leads me to believe that the Gala continued on after they left. Could be that the dash of adversity made the night better for everypony involved. There would probably be some misattribution of arousal involved, and everypony there would be able to go home with a wild tale to tell and a stronger connection with those they spent the evening with.

There certainly were plenty of bored looking background ponies anyway.

[teygrim]

@Ginger Mint

I find that really hard to believe. The Gala crowd just didn't seem at all like the kind of crowd who enjoy the out of the ordinary. Just look at their reaction to Pinky Pies attempts to make things more fun; they looked far more annoyed than amused. It might have been a great Gala for Celestia but I don't think anyone else enjoyed it nearly as much as she.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

Ya, they were stuck up and LIKED being that way, like Applejack's relatives in Manehattan.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

The pianist had a smile on his face.

Seriously though, not all good things happen instantly. There's plenty of things that anypony will look back on and laugh, or after the fact, wipe their brow and enjoy what they'd planned on doing with that much more vigor. Sort of a reverse psychology thing...

Or maybe Celestia really doesn't care about her subjects. I dunno, that seems pretty hard for me to believe instead. Princess Celestia does seem to be beloved by all, so presumably they don't mind her antics too much.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

Maybe they pretend to love her because they're scared she'll banish them to the moon for a thousand years...

[teygrim]

@Ginger Mint

Fair enough. You sound like a pretty smart guy, and I'm impressed that you know a bit about psychology, but I think you believe in Celestias goodness only because you want to believe (which is definitely your right). When I read your comments I can't help but think of Pinkie Pie trying to rationalise Gilda behaviour in "Griffon the Brush off". I know that at least one of my friends, who's into all that fancy stuff, would be absolutely devastated if of the formal events she attended turned out the way the Gala did, and I don't think she'd see a bright side to it for a very long time. But heck, who's to say what happens off screen; you're interpretation is just as valid as mine.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

That's what is so great about art, so much of the effect is in the eye of the beholder. The art does not judge itself, as the saying goes. (Do dreams have intentions?) Nopony needs to subscribe to my point of view, I'm just sharing a positive way of looking at it.

[00CLANK]

I agree with Rannil. Though I view her as a lot more sinister than that. I also don't believe that she couldn't stop Nightmare Moon. She probably ordered that book be written after she slapped that level cap on Twilight and coined her scheme to humiliate her returning sister. Defeating her with proxy ponies instead of taking her down herself.

...Gee, I feel insignificant with my goofball conspiracy theories up against these well thought out, structured posts.

[Rannil]

@Ginger Mint

Heya, good to see there are people out there with a positive outlook on Princess Celestia.

In general I wanted to state that Celestia doesn't have to be "mean" to play pranks or practical jokes. We have seen before, that at least in Ponyville, those kind of pranks are generally accepted (Think Griffon Brush Off). It is all in good fun and maybe except a couple of high class ponies I do expect most of the Gala can deal with it. And to be fair in earlier episodes it was hard to say whether Princess Celestia was doing such jokes on purpose or not (but there was an instance were she surprised Spike by personally getting the letter), but at the end of the Gala Epiode she says she invited the ponies "to living things up a bit"*, implying she knew the ponies would crash the party and she allowed it on purpose. It is hard to say of her other statements (best gala ever & the gala is always awful) were from er personal view or general view from the attendees. I can imagine that there were at least groups, like the wonderbolts, who could also share the feeling Celestia has over the Gala. Also I am sure some of the musicians enjoyed Pinky Pie's tries.

But whether you see Celestia as a bored prankser or not, there is nothing to imply she doesn't care about her subjects

*That line is up there with "Philomena playing a trick" while the bird was overdramatically faking her dead. Which made a lot of people shout out "Trollestia". (To be fair, it might have been explaining all the birds behavior, not just the faking dead)

I agree with Rannil. Though I view her as a lot more sinister than that. I also don't believe that she couldn't stop Nightmare Moon. She probably ordered that book be written after she slapped that level cap on Twilight and coined her scheme to humiliate her returning sister. Defeating her with proxy ponies instead of taking her down herself.

...Gee, I feel insignificant with my goofball conspiracy theories up against these well thought out, structured posts.

History is always written by the winners.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

To quote some lyrics from a song...

"Where I'm from, we believe all sorts of things that aren't true. We call it History."

"A man's called a traitor, or liberator. A rich man's a thief, or philanthropist. Is one a crusader, or ruthless invader? It's all in which label, is able, to persist. There are precious few at ease, with moral ambiguities. So we act as though they don't exist."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF0o9iR21bY

[MyLittlePonyTales]

[BaconofChaos]

[GraphiteDoodles]

Regarding Celestia banishing Nightmare Moon to the moon for 1,000 years, recall that Luna was transformed into a Nightmare Moon, a wicked mare of darkness. In this instance, wicked means "evil or morally bad in principle or practice".

When one intends to make the night last "forever", this meant extremely bad things for all living things in Equestria. Everything would slowly freeze solid as the air turned far, far colder than any winter ever experienced. Plants also need sunlight to live. Without sunlight, they would die. And eventually so too would all living things, whether by extreme cold or starvation. Not only did Luna refuse to listen to reason, but her bitterness transformed her into Nightmare Moon. She made a vow to shroud the land in eternal night.

When one considers that the lives of every living thing was hanging in the balance, Celestia was acted in the best interests of everyone. She took the one route that would remove everyone from danger and give her sister a very serious punishment for her actions.

From the legend in the opening scene in the show, the banishment was intended to last forever, but I'm guessing Celestia and her scholars noticed signs that the spell was weakening as time went on. Hence that is why Twilight is able to find so much information written about it. I'm guessing the magic surrounding the Elements of Harmony is powerful but seldom used, which is why the information the books do provide seem to be rather incomplete. It would not surprise me at all to find that Celestia knew Nightmare Moon's return was imminent. I think from the moment Twilight got her cutie mark Celestia knew that the purple unicorn would be the one to defeat Nightmare Moon. I think Celestia knew she herself would become banished once Nightmare Moon returned.

Interestingly, Celestia only suggested making some friends once Twilight mentioned it. I think Celestia really does trust Twilight completely. There may be some things in Twilight's development that we haven't seen, but I think Celestia knew Twilight would eventually uncover her own destiny. She empowers her student to make her own choices.

I think of Celestia not as mean, but playful. She reminds me a bit like Dumbledore in that way. I've also had a friend who was also my manager in a past job. Wise, capable, trusted and loved by many but had a playful streak a mile long. We get the impression that Twilight has spent much of her life nose-deep in many, many books. While I'm sure Celestia appreciates the incredible knowledge Twilight has picked up, she knew some things could only be learned by experiencing them.

I think Twilight worries too much about what the princess thinks about her friends. I suspect that princess knows a lot more about her friends than she lets on. (Come to think of it, she probably knows quite a bit more about everything than she lets on.) I have to give Celestia credit here. When one is over a thousand years old and still brilliantly sharp, I'm quite certain one picks up on many, many nuances and lessons in life. I suppose what I'm saying is that one can be told a fire is hot all day long and in so many ways, but one never truly learns what that means until one gets burned. I'm certain the princess is deliberately putting Twilight in certain situations, with complete trust that the unicorn and friends will be able to handle them.

I know this, because my manager would put me in situations I didn't think I was ready for. Of course, I passed with flying colors every time. He believed in me far more than I believed in myself, and I needed that! I totally see that going on with Twilight.

The princess also did say that she would have told Fluttershy and friends that her pet was a phoenix had they only asked. It's never a good idea to take something from another without asking for permission first, anyway.

I simply think Celestia is not nearly the stuffy aristocrat everypony in Equestria seems to think she is.