Feelings for Discord?

[Dessa]

The mane 6 had latent traits brought out. They each showed tendencies towards those personalities in S1. The other ponies in Ponyville were illusions (big Mac, granny Smith, et al.) And if every pony was affected by this chaos, then Celestia would have been as well, as every pony within Equestria was affected, including the buffalo from appaloosa. Why would Celestia not be included in that change is those changes were not illusions?

Because it's totally not evil to bring out the worst in people using cheap no-saving-throw spells, just for the lulz.

[starswirlthebearded]

Because it's totally not evil to bring out the worst in people using cheap no-saving-throw spells, just for the lulz.

Not based on his intent to neutralize the elements of harmony. He chose to corrupt them instead of using another more nefarious method of neutralization, which, with his power would have been child's play.

[OccupyEquestria]

One of the things that should be considered when thinking of Discord as not a malicious creature, but simply the embodiment of a natural state, is that he allowed things to fall as they would. For a creature the power of Discord he could have easily done much worse things. He could have had any of the mane 6 killed or never allowed them to collect the Elements of Harmony. Everything that Discord did to the mane 6 had a way out and they eventually got out and had the weapons at their disposal. At that point Discord did not even fight back, it was obvious from before they even activated the EoH that his influence over them had been lost. Discord may have been angry at Celestia for what was certainly in his opinion an unjust imprisonment, but he allowed himself to play out his part to see where the nature of the ponies would lead them.

He tried to influence them, sure, but this is no different then the idea of an angel and devil on your shoulder influencing you towards two different choices. People who agree with the angel think the devil evil, but you forget the opposite of the coin that people who agree with the devil think the angel evil.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

So, removing character traits isn't actually changing someone? Lets look at this from another perspective. If you were to cut off someone's hand. Would you consider the hand to be the same thing as the person? Everyone is capable of doing all sorts of horrible things, but they are who they are because their personalities are balanced by other factors. Removing those balancing factors and allowing their potential for being awful and miserable is absolutely changing who they are. And if you remember how Twilight fixed the problem, she repaired the mental damage by returning their memories, which had been lost. In essence, Discord forcefully stripped out parts of their memories.

It doesn't matter what happened thousands of years ago in the past. Revenge ≠ Justice. Not even close. Discord goes after everyone else except his old foe Celestia. Going after innocent ponies who had nothing to do with his imprisonment centuries ago.

Society has reserved the right to lock up individuals who are a danger to others, but even then there is the responsibility to treat them fairly and justly. When Celestia defeated Discord, she chose not to have him destroyed. She didn't wipe his personality by force to change him to suit her desires.

I'd like to pose another simpler explanation for Discord. He is a sociopath. He fits the personality profile of a sociopath almost to the T.

• Glibness and Superficial Charm - Check

• Manipulative and Conning - Check

• Do not recognize the rights of others - Check

• Grandiose Sense of Self, feeling entitled to others as their right - Check

• Pathological Lying - Check

• Lack of Remorse for hurting others, except feigning remorse to further mock them - Check

• Need for Constant Stimulation, else boring - Check

• Callous Lack of Empathy, having contempt for others feelings and taking advantage of them. - Check

• Poor Behavioral Controls, Impulsive Nature, believe they cannot be stopped, feelings of invulnerability - Check

• Irresponsibility, lack of concern for wrecking others lives and dreams - Check

• Poor Long Term Planning - Check

• Difficulty feeling a wide range of emotions - Arguable.

• Early Behavior Problems - Unknown

((Also: I think the character of Q is largely irrelevant to this discussion. Plenty of movies and things are based on real events while simultaneously being nothing like the original.))

[Rosewind]

You know it's an awesome debate when someone pulls out the DSM IV to psychologically profile a character!

So is being a sociopath considered evil? It's a mental disorder, so by that argument his behavior is a cause of his disorder and not his choices. I know it can be argued that it's his choices that make him "evil," but it's certainly not his fault he's the god of chaos. It's his nature (and character flaws) that make him interesting as a character, and a worthy antagonist for the ponies.

[OccupyEquestria]

Being a sociopath is a job requirement for higher officer or being a corporate officer. Whether we want to consider them evil even though they do careless things that harm people is another question.

[elsporko]

One of the things that should be considered when thinking of Discord as not a malicious creature, but simply the embodiment of a natural state, is that he allowed things to fall as they would. For a creature the power of Discord he could have easily done much worse things. He could have had any of the mane 6 killed or never allowed them to collect the Elements of Harmony. Everything that Discord did to the mane 6 had a way out and they eventually got out and had the weapons at their disposal. At that point Discord did not even fight back, it was obvious from before they even activated the EoH that his influence over them had been lost. Discord may have been angry at Celestia for what was certainly in his opinion an unjust imprisonment, but he allowed himself to play out his part to see where the nature of the ponies would lead them.

He tried to influence them, sure, but this is no different then the idea of an angel and devil on your shoulder influencing you towards two different choices. People who agree with the angel think the devil evil, but you forget the opposite of the coin that people who agree with the devil think the angel evil.

You are misremembering the episode. Discord didn't fight back because he thought he still had influence over the ponies. He points out that there last attempt at using the elements failed which is why he isn't scared, and even taunts them.

Discord is definitely different then the angel or devil. Its more akin to a chemical change.A man might present a girl at a bar with the choice to come home with him, but if he has slipped a drug into her drink then he is not in the right. With Fluttershy its even more extreme as she was not given any choice. Thats like tying a person down and giving them a lobotomy.

Now the question, is being a sociopath evil? If the sociopath knows the difference between right and wrong then it definitely is. Sociopaths often know what they need to do to avoid trouble, they just don't care if what they do hurts others. If there are no rules does that mean they can't be held accountable because they have no way of knowing what is right or wrong? I think Discord understood enough to know people would oppose him which is why he systematically took out the elements. The well thought out plan to me shows he was aware enough to understand what he was doing and that he would face punishment if it could be dealt out

[starswirlthebearded]

hi hi

So, removing character traits isn't actually changing someone? Lets look at this from another perspective. If you were to cut off someone's hand. Would you consider the hand to be the same thing as the person? Everyone is capable of doing all sorts of horrible things, but they are who they are because their personalities are balanced by other factors. Removing those balancing factors and allowing their potential for being awful and miserable is absolutely changing who they are. And if you remember how Twilight fixed the problem, she repaired the mental damage by returning their memories, which had been lost. In essence, Discord forcefully stripped out parts of their memories.

It doesn't matter what happened thousands of years ago in the past. Revenge ≠ Justice. Not even close. Discord goes after everyone else except his old foe Celestia. Going after innocent ponies who had nothing to do with his imprisonment centuries ago.

Society has reserved the right to lock up individuals who are a danger to others, but even then there is the responsibility to treat them fairly and justly. When Celestia defeated Discord, she chose not to have him destroyed. She didn't wipe his personality by force to change him to suit her desires.

I'd like to pose another simpler explanation for Discord. He is a sociopath. He fits the personality profile of a sociopath almost to the T.

• Glibness and Superficial Charm - Check

• Manipulative and Conning - Check

• Do not recognize the rights of others - Check

• Grandiose Sense of Self, feeling entitled to others as their right - Check

• Pathological Lying - Check

• Lack of Remorse for hurting others, except feigning remorse to further mock them - Check

• Need for Constant Stimulation, else boring - Check

• Callous Lack of Empathy, having contempt for others feelings and taking advantage of them. - Check

• Poor Behavioral Controls, Impulsive Nature, believe they cannot be stopped, feelings of invulnerability - Check

• Irresponsibility, lack of concern for wrecking others lives and dreams - Check

• Poor Long Term Planning - Check

• Difficulty feeling a wide range of emotions - Arguable.

• Early Behavior Problems - Unknown

((Also: I think the character of Q is largely irrelevant to this discussion. Plenty of movies and things are based on real events while simultaneously being nothing like the original.))

I feel the need to reply to specific points of your DSM IV analysis.

He lied one time. He did speak in riddles though, and was misunderstood. He told them exactly where to find the elements, back where they began. Hell he even told then leading them into the maze was his plan (which if they had figured out, everything would have ended sooner or he would have set up another "game". Not everything he said in the maze was a lie, but interpretation from a certain perspective, with the exception of rarity. so one lie does not make him a pathological liar. He created a fake gem, though I suppose he was telling the truth based on the illusion. Pinkie pie was a legitimate analysis too. Just because her friends were laughing along with her does not mean that they were not also laughing at her. Granted that was probably not the case, but was still a possibility that he used to drive her into bringing out her anti social tendencies. *Almost* everything else he said was mockery.

He has every right to have feelings of grandiose sense of self. He is a god. If you had his powers you'd probably feel the same.

And his planning was pretty long term, but didn't take into account all variables (spike and Celestia). Had he accounted for those two he would have succeeded.

And he is certainly invulnerable. The only way to stop him was encase him in stone, and that only lasts as long as those who imprisoned him remain connected to the EoH, and every pony remains in harmony around his statue. Otherwise he is pretty much untouchable.

Everything else matches up though. However, his powers and his state a spirit of disharmony must be taken into account. So the dsm iv doesn't really apply as it was designed for humans, not all powerful brings. But by that it would be enough to categorize him as a sociopath. But that doesn't make him evil rather someone who needs mental help, as most sociopaths had issues to make them that way in their history, which is unknown.

The only way you could have made discord more like q would have also brought in star trek writers to help. Otherwise they are pretty much identical.

[Dessa]

Assuming everything Celestia said was accurate. It would have been more chaotic certainly, but our world isn't completely harmonious and yet it still isn't a dystopia. In fact because it isn't completely harmonious that makes this world interesting. Who is to say discord wasn't ruling in a similar fashion? You are making assumptions based on the victor's description, which could be completely wrong. We can easily take his actions here as revenge for the 1000+ years of imprisonment, he wanted to destroy Celestia's kingdom before starting his own. That does not make him evil. A for the mane 6, it was only so the elements could not be used against him. Basically trying to beat his enemies. The fact that he did it without harming them, when he probably could have blinked them out of existence if he wanted to. Now that would have been completely evil and still would have achieved his goal of neutralizing the elements of harmony.

Okay, I'ma break this down:

We have 2 sources of information by which to judge discord: 1. Celestia historical account. 2. What we actually see Discord do.

1. Celestia's historical account.

This provides 2 potential scenarios: A. Celestia spoke the truth. B. Celestia lied.

A. Celestia spoke the truth

Supposing Celestia spoke the truth, then we may conclude that Discord is indeed evil, as he acted to impose lasting harm.

B. Celestia Lied

Then we may dismiss her testimony. Given no other information, Discord is >%50 likely to be evil (and >%50 to be good, with neutrality being the little sliver between those two).

Conclusion based on Celestia's testimony: Discord is either evil, or ~50% likely to be evil.

2. What we actually see Discord do.

We've covered this above for the most part, and we disagree on whether these actions actions are evil, much less whether these actions prove him to be evil.

Here's the wrnech in your works: #2 corroborates #1. That is, GIVEN what we KNOW IS TRUE about Discord, and GIVEN Celestia's testimony, we can make an assessment of Celestia's truthfulness by comparing the two.

ASSERTION: Discord was defeated in the past by the Elements of Harmony.

EVIDENCE: We see Discord defeated by the elements of Harmony.

FURTHER EVIDENCE: Discord stole the elements of Harmony when he escaped. Why would he do this if he did not know they were a threat? How would he know they were a threat if they did not defeat him once before.

CONCLUSION: Celestia was telling the truth.

ASSERTION: Celestia accuses Discord of ruling Equestria in a state of "Disharmony and unhappiness."

EVIDENCE: "Playing fair? Perhaps we haven't met. I'm Discord, spirit of Chaos and Disharmony? ... Now if you'll excuse me, I have some Chaos to wreak." Discord states his intention here to sow chaos (disharmony), which is exactly what Discord is accused of doing in the past.

FURTHER EVIDENCE: "Harmony in Equestria is dead. Discord rules, Celestia drools." Discord states he intend to rule, and declares harmony "dead." "Dead" and death are often used as metaphors to suggest permanence and loss. These two statements show Discord intends to rule Equestria in an eternal state of chaos and disharmony.

CONCLUSION: Extremely plausible.

You assert that Celestia is fabricating her account of history? A spurious accusation, Mr. HeBearded. Celestia has a history of honesty. Go back and watch the series, and it's very difficult, if not impossible, to find any evidence of her lying about anything, ever. She may have in "A Bird in the Hoof," but a single instance of lying as a prank is hardly evidence of her dishonesty as a character trait. IF she has lied, she has done so very sparingly, and never on matters of import.

So to sum up:

1. Celestia has never lied on a matter of consequence.

2. What we CAN verify of her statements about Discord are true.

Yet you SUPPOSE that she lies about history. That she is making things up about Discord. That she has it in for the guy. Why? Well, you don't speculate on that. Celestia claims that she did so because Discord intends to sow eternal chaos. An accustion which Discord not only doesn't deny, but explicitly agrees with. But somehow, she's making up all the other bits about him actually doing so in the past. I find this extremely unlikely.

Fillies and Gentlecolts of the jury, Discord is guilty. He stated an intention to sow chaos in the present, and in the process, deliberately caused ponies to suffer, the very definition of evil. To suppose that he would suddenly decide to do so now, whereas he was merely "seeking justice" in the path is disingenuous.

Discord is evil, and always has been.

[starswirlthebearded]

Okay, I'ma break this down:

We have 2 sources of information by which to judge discord: 1. Celestia historical account. 2. What we actually see Discord do.

1. Celestia's historical account.

This provides 2 potential scenarios: A. Celestia spoke the truth. B. Celestia lied.

A. Celestia spoke the truth

Supposing Celestia spoke the truth, then we may conclude that Discord is indeed evil, as he acted to impose lasting harm.

B. Celestia Lied

Then we may dismiss her testimony. Given no other information, Discord is >%50 likely to be evil (and >%50 to be good, with neutrality being the little sliver between those two).

Conclusion based on Celestia's testimony: Discord is either evil, or ~50% likely to be evil.

2. What we actually see Discord do.

We've covered this above for the most part, and we disagree on whether these actions actions are evil, much less whether these actions prove him to be evil.

Here's the wrnech in your works: #2 corroborates #1. That is, GIVEN what we KNOW IS TRUE about Discord, and GIVEN Celestia's testimony, we can make an assessment of Celestia's truthfulness by comparing the two.

ASSERTION: Discord was defeated in the past by the Elements of Harmony.

EVIDENCE: We see Discord defeated by the elements of Harmony.

FURTHER EVIDENCE: Discord stole the elements of Harmony when he escaped. Why would he do this if he did not know they were a threat? How would he know they were a threat if they did not defeat him once before.

CONCLUSION: Celestia was telling the truth.

ASSERTION: Celestia accuses Discord of ruling Equestria in a state of "Disharmony and unhappiness."

EVIDENCE: "Playing fair? Perhaps we haven't met. I'm Discord, spirit of Chaos and Disharmony? ... Now if you'll excuse me, I have some Chaos to wreak." Discord states his intention here to sow chaos (disharmony), which is exactly what Discord is accused of doing in the past.

FURTHER EVIDENCE: "Harmony in Equestria is dead. Discord rules, Celestia drools." Discord states he intend to rule, and declares harmony "dead." "Dead" and death are often used as metaphors to suggest permanence and loss. These two statements show Discord intends to rule Equestria in an eternal state of chaos and disharmony.

CONCLUSION: Extremely plausible.

You assert that Celestia is fabricating her account of history? A spurious accusation, Mr. HeBearded. Celestia has a history of honesty. Go back and watch the series, and it's very difficult, if not impossible, to find any evidence of her lying about anything, ever. She may have in "A Bird in the Hoof," but a single instance of lying as a prank is hardly evidence of her dishonesty as a character trait. IF she has lied, she has done so very sparingly, and never on matters of import.

So to sum up:

1. Celestia has never lied on a matter of consequence.

2. What we CAN verify of her statements about Discord are true.

Yet you SUPPOSE that she lies about history. That she is making things up about Discord. That she has it in for the guy. Why? Well, you don't speculate on that. Celestia claims that she did so because Discord intends to sow eternal chaos. An accustion which Discord not only doesn't deny, but explicitly agrees with. But somehow, she's making up all the other bits about him actually doing so in the past. I find this extremely unlikely.

Fillies and Gentlecolts of the jury, Discord is guilty. He stated an intention to sow chaos in the present, and in the process, deliberately caused ponies to suffer, the very definition of evil. To suppose that he would suddenly decide to do so now, whereas he was merely "seeking justice" in the path is disingenuous.

Discord is evil, and always has been.

I never actually said she "lied." You cannot lie about a personal account, because you are recounting events from your perspective (actually you can, but there is rarely a point unless you did something horrible that you want erased). She was involved and thus her accounts cannot, by design, be objective, which would be a totally accurate account. So I am contesting whether everything she says is entirely accurate, which by all accounts, is probably not, but that does not mean that she lied about anything. Personal accounts are subjective, she told it as it happened to HER. Without Discord's side of the story, we cannot ascertain the entirety of the story. Likely either would spin the story of what happened to make themselves seem the better and the opposition seem all the worse. I don't expect her to lie nor do I think she would ever, however, she does have a history of not revealing the whole truth when she knows. Perhaps its because she too is omnipotent and can tell, like discord the course that her actions, or lack thereof would take and thus chooses to withhold certain information to bring about the most advantageous outcome, that would teach her student and subjects so that they can, in the future, become more self-sufficient.

Now, as for what Discord said, again, I'm assuming in the current time, that is his goal as revenge against Celestia for the 1000 years imprisonment.

His history, and time of ruling, is another matter entirely. We do not know how the world was. It is entirely possible that the three ruled together in a state of complete balance with harmony and disharmony coexisting as it does in our world. It is also possible that Discord took it too far and started doing things that would have shifted the balance of the world causing pain and misery for the world, leading Celestia and Luna to take action against him. Celestia, to avoid making it seem that she allied herself with someone whom can be perceived as evil, yet being an integral part of the balance (which most ponies would not understand), chose to imprison him and tell the story in such a way that he would be perceived as the be all end all of evil and that she and Luna were the saviors of the land and the harmony in Equestria. It wouldn't have been a lie, because HE was ruling, and there WAS misery, but what she wouldn't have mentioned is her alliance with him as part of the ruling class. It is evident that the two knew each other in some capacity. "Oh Celestia, I have forgotten how grim you can be." You don't learn that about a person on the battlefield or in combat, but through personal relation. And they say sometimes your greatest friend can become your most devious of enemies (I forget where I read that, but I know that isn't exactly how the quote goes).

[Dessa]

Personal accounts are subjective, she told it as it happened to HER. Without Discord's side of the story, we cannot ascertain the entirety of the story.

Everything Discord says absolutely corroborates Celestia's side of the story. She says he rules in chaos, he says he rules in chaos. There is a lot of evidence to support the notion that Celestia's account is accurate, but you've got nothing but idle speculation. Nothing at all. You can come up with little crazy scenarios about how Celestia and Discord were drinking buddies at Oxford before they got in a fight over a game a Cribbage, but that's just some stuff you made up.

And no "They seem to know each other" is not evidence that they were ever buds. You can learn a lot about someone with whom you disagree, including and especially what you don't like about that pony, like how much of a downer you think they are.

All this "plan b" stuff is just cooked up. Do you have any evidence to present, or just unsubstantiated scenarios that could be true, and can't be disproven?

[starswirlthebearded]

Everything Discord says absolutely corroborates Celestia's side of the story. She says he rules in chaos, he says he rules in chaos. There is a lot of evidence to support the notion that Celestia's account is accurate, but you've got nothing but idle speculation. Nothing at all. You can come up with little crazy scenarios about how Celestia and Discord were drinking buddies at Oxford before they got in a fight over a game a Cribbage, but that's just some stuff you made up.

And no "They seem to know each other" is not evidence that they were ever buds. You can learn a lot about someone with whom you disagree, including and especially what you don't like about that pony, like how much of a downer you think they are.

All this "plan b" stuff is just cooked up. Do you have any evidence to present, or just unsubstantiated scenarios that could be true, and can't be disproven?

All Discord states is what he plans to do in the future, not what he did in the past. One cannot dictate the other. We assume it is true because of what Celestia said. However, she and Luna are the only two that were around that can tell the story, and we never heard Luna say anything about the matter. Discord never spoke of the past other than Celestia being grim.

Yes, we know that Discord was defeated by the elements of harmony, but that does not suggest anything but that.

Discord never states any intent to actually rule. He intended to wreak chaos upon the world, but the reasons are never given. That does not suggest any past action or how he did conduct himself as a ruler. We only have Celestia's word on that. And don't bring up "Discord rules, Celestia drools," as that is a metaphor, and does not state intention to actually rule over Equestria, or anything else of the sort.

And sure you can learn certain things by hating or opposing someone, but their tendencies are a bit harder, as that requires discussion. We don't know in what capacity the two had the discussions they held, whether it was like in the present, him starting a game with Celestia or Luna or in a more diplomatic sense, or in a friendly sense. We simply don't know. We have limited information on the entire situation, mainly coming from the current ruler, Celestia (and her pretty windows, which were created by her).

In fact, based on his personality, I have my doubts that he actually did rule at any time. And if he did, it probably wouldn't have been alone because he wouldn't want that responsibility, and if it was alone, how can that be considered ruling, because all he would do is spread random chaos, possibly with a bit more care so that the world wouldn't be destroyed by aforementioned chaos (which I'm sure he knew was a possibility, he was an antagonist but he was an intelligent one) He just doesn't seem the type to rule, rather he would act on his own whims disrupting those in power, as he did with Celestia in the present. Again, like Loki. Loki never ruled, rather he disrupted the actions of the other gods, though sometimes helping, depending on what he decided to do.

I honestly think there is more to the story than what was presented to us. And we will never know because Discord is encased and will probably never be spoken of again. I suggested one of many possibilities in which Discord was around. He is the spirit of discord and disharmony. Now, if we knew how long he existed or any additional information we could make further assertions on the matter. How was he created, how long was he around for. Did he exist before the creation of Equestria? And if so why was he dormant? Did he get created by the discord between the three pony clans? And by extension, was Celestia and Luna the resulting creation of the new found harmony of the three clans? If that can be assumed then why did Discord take power first? Do draconequus develop faster allowing him to take control of Equestria before the sisters?

None of the necessary information to make an accurate statement about Equestria's history is known. No origin of any of the three, no relations. All we got was basically "Discord ruled, everyone was miserable, and my sister and i rose up using the elements of harmony to defeat him." That is the summary of the story, and the fact that it can be said in one line is worrisome. And tells, at least me, that it isn't the entire story. There must have been some interaction between the three at some point whether it was as friends or adversaries is unknown. We only know that they became adversaries.

[Rosewind]

Greetings Everypony! I'm Cheerilee, here to bring you the latest news on Discord Debate 2012!

It's been an inspiring and rousing debate this year, sending Canterlot into...teehee...chaos! Let's look at the Chaos Conservative corner of the ponylitical arena:

Ginger "The Destroyer" Mint

Occupation: Artist/Logic-Fu Master

Heralded as the voice of reason during dark times, Ginger is a trained master of Quadruple Black Belt Logic-fu. This fearsome filly has been bringing excellent points to the arena regarding everything from Equestrian power supplies to the frosting content of Sugarcube Corner cupcakes. Not to be underestimated!

Dessa the Bronita

Occupation: One of the Four Horsemen

Always eager for a solid discussion about pony, Dessa enjoys bringing concrete examples to the table paired with a one-two logic punch. Using wit and wisdom to her advantage, she sends her debate opponents into a world of hurtin'.

On the Pro-Chaos side:

Starswirl the Bearded

Occupation: Scientist/Magician

Starswirl is well known to love a good debate, and this time is no different. A master of the amniomorphic and time-travel spells, Starswirl touts a different pony perspective when flourishing his banner about the issue du jour. Usually seen arguing with Rosewind, this time the two have paired up in the battle royale!

Pegasister Rosewind

Occupation: Gypsy/Baker/Serial Killer

Rosewind loves debating over pony, and this time she has thrown in her lot with the almighty god of chaos, Discord! She argues in his defense, denying him as evil and instead insisting that his behavior is a result of his inherent nature. She has paired herself with Starswirl in a rare coup de tat against the neighsayers of chaos!

That's all the news for now, ponies! Big Mac is coming over for tea and cookies. This is Cheerilee, signing off!

[Dessa]

All Discord states is what he plans to do in the future, not what he did in the past. One cannot dictate the other.

You're right. There is absolutely no relationship between past and present, particularly when the present mimics accounts of the past almost perfectly. No relationship whatsoever X:

Again, you're being disingenuous. We see discord acting just as Celestia warned he would. We can safely presume that she knew how he would act because he has acted that way before. it's the simplest explanation, and it doesn't require "what ifs" from left field.

But maybe you're right. Remember that time he saved a baby from certain doom? Yeah, it's like that time Voldemort decided to give Harry a Horcrux. You know, that time that never actually happened. Which reminds me of the time that Emperor Palpatine let himself be killed by Anakin for the good of the galaxy. I'm pretty sure I heard in an interview with George Lucas no mention of this.

Okay. I confess: I made that stuff up. But you have to believe me when I say Voldemort, Palpatine, and Discord really weren't all that bad. Because it's conceivable that the right combination of circumstances would justify the abominable things that the writers went out of their way to describe in detail.

[Rosewind]

You just had to bring in Voldemort. Voldemort wasn't born evil. His actions were a result of circumstances/his environment growing up, which later contributed to his evil acts. Had he grown up differently with different influences, who's to say what would have happened? Palpatine was probably mad that the store ran out of anti-wrinkle cream. (I don't know much about his early character, so that's the best I have.)

The big difference here is that Discord is a god of chaos -- a representation of it. I swear on Starswirl's grave that does not make him evil! We don't know much about his history, or have any real way of finding out about it. It greatly intrigues me, though.

[starswirlthebearded]

The future is also influenced by the past, in which Discord was IMPRISONED for 1000 years in stone. That would annoy anyone.

She did warn that he would act that way, but the scope and size of the disharmony he previously bought was never determined. Celestia could have easily determined it was going to be worse this time around because Discord was out for vengeance against her.

What he did in the past could have been not nearly as bad as she made it out to be.

Discord had no real intent and was doing what he was basically born in this world to do. Palpatine and Voldemort BOTH actively chose to go down the path of death and destruction. Discord never had a choice as the negative side of the balancing act of the world.

Which is why I have been claiming that it could have been not as bad as Celestia is claiming, this time around he was out for vengeance. This time he had a motive to go overboard. He didn't have such motive in the past. Which is why it is safe to consider that he didn't do the same things he did as in the past. And why it is possible that things went the way they did because he was part of the balance, not the problem, at least initially. It wasn't until he became a problem that Celestia and Luna imprisoned him.

Anypony else having a lot of fun with this debate? I haven't had this much fun in EONS.

[Rosewind]

Anypony else having a lot of fun with this debate? I haven't had this much fun in EONS.

It's definitely doubled the fun. We've needed a good topic to swing at each other with for a while.

[elsporko]

I'm not sure where you got this idea the three of them ruled in a balance. It seems from the episode that Discord ruled and Celestian and Luna then rose up against him, taking over after he was dispatched.

[starswirlthebearded]

I'm not sure where you got this idea the three of them ruled in a balance. It seems from the episode that Discord ruled and Celestian and Luna then rose up against him, taking over after he was dispatched.

That is what Celestia said. You are assuming her account is 100% correct and unbiased. She wrote the history, and it doesn't have to be 100% accurate, and is likely not, because it is as she observed it. If the history was written by a third party, I'd think completely differently. I stated that only as a possibility of something that Celestia left out of the history as something that would be frowned upon because Discord would likely be viewed as evil. Again, he could have been a necessary part of the balance, and went out of control resulting in a need to be imprisoned.

Yes there is evidence to suggest that her account is at least in part correct, but there is no way to check that it is entirely correct, unless there is something like a lost history that is written by someone not involved in the battle between Celestia/Luna and Discord.

[AgileFlourish]

Im glad you all enjoy the debate

[OccupyEquestria]

Evil is an attribute that should really only be made towards choice. You do not call a wolf evil because it kills and eats a cute bunny. The wolf by the wolf's nature needed to eat this bunny to survive. Evil characters are truly those characters who do not need to act the way they act and yet make a conscious choice to do so. Voldemort was a person who could have been anything and yet became a power hungry wizard. Discord is not something that gets to make conscious choices. Discord is an embodiment of disharmony and through the fact that Discord is an embodiment of this then Discord cannot act otherwise.

Something cannot be evil inherently because evil is a perspective drive, moral label given to personal choice.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I'm actually rather distraught by this conversation. If it weren't happening right now, I would find it hard to believe that I'd need to explain the moral framework for why lobotomizing people and wrecking their lives is wrong, repeatedly. Do people really think the actions Discord did were ok things that would be justifiably imitated as long as you were upset with someone for something they did to you in the past? Or as long as you enjoyed it and didn't feel any inherent remorse, that makes it ok?

That people have differences of opinion on the matter is not the issue. The core of moral philosophy is largely about resolving differences of opinion in the best possible way for all parties concerned.

This is starting to sound like something out of Ellen Langer, Arthur Blank and Benzion Chanowitz's 1978 photocopier study. "I have to make copies," is not a valid reason to cut in line at the xerox machine. "I'm going to do X, because I want to," is a placebo reason.

[OccupyEquestria]

Prior to his imprisonment, Discord had filled the world with chaos (relatively speaking as even chaos has order). What we can surmize from the canon is that Celestia did not like the world as it was and trapped Discord so that she could cease the chaos of the world and create the world in her desired image. It is not possible that during the Discord years no one enjoyed the world. Whether most enjoyed the world is up for debate; whether more or less of ponies or non-ponies enjoyed the world is up for debate. What cannot be debated is that whether there were some ponies and non-ponies who enjoyed the world the way it was. To Discord and the (let us call them) Discordians this was an evil act and destroyed their world.

Discord's actions in bringing out the disharmony of the mane 6 are not so blankly evil. "I could kill them or I could allow them to live while neutralizing their threat to this world." It is something along the lines of imprisoning someone as opposed to killing them, though I would say there was a fair degree more freedom within Discord's mental imprisonment and Celestia's physical imprisonment. There is a reason to every action. Discord's actions to the mane 6 were not of tantamount difference to Celestia's action against him. Both actions were a way in which to maintain their version of the world.

[AgileFlourish]

Prior to his imprisonment, Discord had filled the world with chaos (relatively speaking as even chaos has order). What we can surmize from the canon is that Celestia did not like the world as it was and trapped Discord so that she could cease the chaos of the world and create the world in her desired image. It is not possible that during the Discord years no one enjoyed the world. Whether most enjoyed the world is up for debate; whether more or less of ponies or non-ponies enjoyed the world is up for debate. What cannot be debated is that whether there were some ponies and non-ponies who enjoyed the world the way it was. To Discord and the (let us call them) Discordians this was an evil act and destroyed their world.

Discord's actions in bringing out the disharmony of the mane 6 are not so blankly evil. "I could kill them or I could allow them to live while neutralizing their threat to this world." It is something along the lines of imprisoning someone as opposed to killing them, though I would say there was a fair degree more freedom within Discord's mental imprisonment and Celestia's physical imprisonment. There is a reason to every action. Discord's actions to the mane 6 were not of tantamount difference to Celestia's action against him. Both actions were a way in which to maintain their version of the world.

Yeah.. you know.. what he said..

I can see a point to both sides, and since this a fictional cartoon and we only have 2 episodes of information about Discord, its hard to find an "answer" to this debate.

Almost as if.. he did it on purpose, only to appear in 2 episodes so that no one would ever know the truth behind him, and that would cause disharmony amongst the bronies! .. Or maybe its just a coincidence

[elsporko]

Discord fills the world with disharmonly but he is self aware and knows that he harms others. He makes no attempt to justify his actions. He straight up says he enjoys the trouble he causes. Discord could temper his choas or confine it but he chooses not to. Discord was perfectly able to control himself before he beleived it was safe. This goes back to the sociopath idea. He is aware that what he does is wrong and people will try to stop him. He only chooses to control himself when there is a chance he will suffer for what he feels like doing. He clearly demonstrates the ability to practice self control if it suits him