Application System

[Archturus]

“When a system no longer serves the purpose for which it was designed, change must be sought.”

Ladies and gentlemen of Canterlot, I am worried that the character application system on our forums is no longer fulfilling its intended design.

Allow me to elaborate. Eighteen days ago, I joined this forum with the intent of leaping into the collective writing experience offered by the fair valleys of Equestria. Since then I have lost interest in my original reasons for embarking on this voyage, instead carefully observing not only my own, but the many other applications awaiting approval. Thusly I discovered something rather shocking.

The average turnaround for an application is presently fourteen days. When you consider that the average time span for securing a uk passport is shorter than this, we can safely conclude that something is amiss.

If the collective writing section of this forum is to continue to grow throughout the upcoming season, this must be attended upon posthaste.

Through examination of the various applications within the confines of the system, I think I have determined three key issues that are ripe for discussion.

1; First of all, I would like to point out that the moderators / help-staff are just as much victims of this as the participants. The present model is more reminiscent of orchestrated chaos then an effective system, wasting not only their time in repeated instructions, but demanding an unrealistic level of dedication on their part.

2; The number of rules and regulations spread across multiple threads is disorientating to newcomers and a recipe for ignorance. Like lightning, it is human nature to take the path of least resistance. Though the basic guide for character Aplication design has been recently streamlined, there are many other more detailed guides and instructions that are taken as law, yet buried within the FAQ threads. The format as it stands dissuades applicants and will often result in aforesaid users skipping the most important points within the maelstrom of information.

3; Assessment takes far too long for both parties involved. Though primarily linked in to the first two points, there are other issues that should be isolated under their own heading. These issues stem from the innately mixed view points of staff, each searching for different levels of engagement within an application. Help Staff should not be required to cross-examine apps unless requested by the initial examiner, as this risks unwanted contradiction with one another. Yet all parties are encouraged to access applications in post order, rather than through an adoption process dedicated to pushing apps to completion quickly and efficiently. Again, not their fault, just the way the system has been constructed.

There are many other issues that have become integral to the weighing down of this system. Small changes made over a long period of time have produced an analogue of British Rail, a model of inefficiency that places undue stress on both its staff and passengers.

At the heart of any Application is whimsy. An idea will come to someone spontaneously or during discourse, sometimes for use only in one particular story. As such, the system accompanying this should be quick and responsive, lest the player lose interest entirely. In the same breath though, help-staff and moderators should not be taking on a second (unpaid) job when they accept said titles. It’s a difficult balance to achieve, one which has resulted in a great number of headaches I don’t doubt.

True, I am making a lot of assumptions here, and I apologize if anything I’ve said so far has been out of line. But I feel quite strongly that improvements could be easily made to ensure a better experience for all involved.

If possible, can there be a formal discussion on this subject and changes that could be made to improve the situation? It would be of special interest to hear the thoughts of the staff, their experiences and what they find to be most time consuming.

In the meantime, here are a few suggestions I would like to put forth based upon what I have observed. Keep in mind that these are all just suggestions and ideas. Above all I am interested to hear what others think about the system and their own suggestions on what they would keep / change and why.

Automation;

When first joining the forum and posting in the ‘introduction’ area, the new user is greeted by an interface constructed of simple questions and dropdown boxes. Why can’t this system be applied within the applications area? We have already established a standard format for all apps, so why give players the option of failing that particular aspect of character creation?

The creation of form that appears whenever a new post is created within this forum would save a considerable amount of time. This would include the reduction of such selective items as ‘Species’, ‘sex’, ‘age’, ‘colour pallet’ and ‘location’ to a dropdown selection, coupled with character limited description boxes where appropriate.

Location should also be generalized to regions and specifics left for the character background. Yes, there is a housing shortage in Ponyville, but that doesn’t mean that the character cannot live with reasonable proximity of the town. This applies to any rule that is seen as static; if you don’t want something to be a variable, don’t give applicants the option in the first place. It invites failure.

Build rules into the App Form;

Many things about a character application form should be self explanatory, but there are always exceptions. In addition to the rules / guidelines posts in FAQ and on the app section itself, each option box on the form should have an explanation link of some kind attached. Each opens a popup with both a short and ‘advanced view’ detailed explanation of what is expected within that part of the form. This ensures that all relevant information is to hand while creating the application, rather than stored elsewhere.

Notifications and Time Limits;

Once posted, there will be an initial period of interest in which the creator will be watching it like a hawk. If there is a response within say five hours or so, the poster is almost certain to have the drive required to make the necessary changes. The longer it is left unacknowledged, the less interested they will be in its completion.

At the outmost, the active period for an application should be around three days from initial post to completion. You may scoff, but it is possible. Right now the system is clogged with a backlog of apps which should have been quick to clear. We need to make each thread as easy as possible for Staff to sort and reply too.

Standardizing will go a long way towards this, but another major addition would be automatic notifications for both the OP and the Editor. Also, from what I can see, moderators are required to post on individual apps that have fallen silent, a waste of time and energy on all accounts.

Introducing a posting bot may resolve some of these issues. Right now, the notification system is very good for keeping track of replies across the forum, but sadly does little to highlight more important information which can easily get buried. This could be solved by including a script that notifies the participants of an app via PM whenever there is a reply waiting. After remaining inactive for three days, the bot will post a reminder on the thread and send a Personal Message to the OP. After a further three days, if post bot’s reply is still the last response, the thread is automatically deleted, keeping the forum clean.

But what if the poster simply went on holiday! Now the app they’ve worked so hard on is gone forever! Well not so much; The primary reason for the bot’s PM is to send a quote of the thread’s first post to the recipient, there by effectively saving a copy of the character application.

Removal of Work In Progress Tags;

Why is WIP even applicable? Staff don’t look at apps until they are marked as Final. Instead of encouraging posters to clog up the apps section with half finished products, we should direct any applicant to use a word processor to produce the draft copy of their character background; this being the only thing that should need work at all with the implementation of a standardized application form. In the age of Google Docs and many other free Word Processors, there should be no reason for anything to be half finished in the first place.

Moving Cast Apps;

Many cast apps are contested and thus have multiple threads concerning the same character spread across several pages. Again, this clogs the system. The creation of a dedicated Cast Application sub-forum would keep these apps nicely organized. Under this forum a altered version of the application form could include additional choices, as the tier of the proposed character. These changes could be integrated with the cast list to prevent characters being applied for if they are already allocated to a player. All available Tier One characters are listed on the initial ‘Name’ option as a dropdown list / auto complete, the latter flashing a warning if the named character is already taken.

On a far lesser note; do we need to canonize every background character? There are some fanons that are obviously going to be contested, such as Ditzy, Lyra and Bonbon, Vinyl Scratch etc, but even the nameless faceless scene fillers seem to be mentioned here there and everywhere. Could these just be classified as OC with reference to their appearance? Perhaps an irrelevant comment, but I may as well throw that in here somewhere.

Many of these ideas would be a nightmare to implement or downright impossible due to code limitations. These are just all just ‘ideal world’ concepts, a base to work from as it were. Above all I am interested to hear what others think about the system and their own suggestions on what they would keep / change and why.

Archturus out!

[MyLittlePonyTales]

But what if the poster simply went on holiday! Now the app they’ve worked so hard on is gone forever! Well not so much; The primary reason for the bot’s PM is to send a quote of the thread’s first post to the recipient, there by effectively saving a copy of the character application.

Actually, as it is, if applications get removed for inactivity, they are still accessible by the Moderators. The content is quite safe, and a user need only ask for their application back.

Removal of Work In Progress Tags;

Why is WIP even applicable? Staff don’t look at apps until they are marked as Final. Instead of encouraging posters to clog up the apps section with half finished products, we should direct any applicant to use a word processor to produce the draft copy of their character background; this being the only thing that should need work at all with the implementation of a standardized application form. In the age of Google Docs and many other free Word Processors, there should be no reason for anything to be half finished in the first place.

There are some users that like to get feedback from other users while they are writing an application. Also, by having a WIP app, sometimes the staff will catch something glaringly obvious, that can be changed before the entire app is written and hinging upon all the details. By removing things early, it saves having to change a lot of work later. This is helpful for those who are making their first application and/or are inexperienced.

[Autumn]

“When a system no longer serves the purpose for which it was designed, change must be sought.”

Ladies and gentlemen of Canterlot, I am worried that the character application system on our forums is no longer fulfilling its intended design.

Allow me to elaborate. Eighteen days ago, I joined this forum with the intent of leaping into the collective writing experience offered by the fair valleys of Equestria. Since then I have lost interest in my original reasons for embarking on this voyage, instead carefully observing not only my own, but the many other applications awaiting approval. Thusly I discovered something rather shocking.

The average turnaround for an application is presently fourteen days. When you consider that the average time span for securing a uk passport is shorter than this, we can safely conclude that something is amiss.

Before I read more into this and glance at "5-hour responses" (based on which timezone? 3am posts will be ignored till awake and away from our full-time jobs and school/college)... would you kindly remind me and our staff and the Staff helpers how much we're being paid to provide this service?

...wow.

[Archturus]

Actually, as it is, if applications get removed for inactivity, they are still accessible by the Moderators. The content is quite safe, and a user need only ask for their application back.

Blimy that was quick Well that is good news, nothing is ever truly lost to the ether. So is the system already automated, or do you and others have to personally watch every app until its clinging to the bottom of the list?

There are some users that like to get feedback from other users while they are writing an application. Also, by having a WIP app, sometimes the staff will catch something glaringly obvious, that can be changed before the entire app is written and hinging upon all the details. By removing things early, it saves having to change a lot of work later. This is helpful for those who are making their first application and/or are inexperienced.

Hmm, I can appreciate that, feedback is quite useful in that respect. The thing is though, it isn’t actually saving any time, given that the changes made would still have to be done irrelative of whether the application is WIP or not. And as it stands, those new users must have to specifically ask help staff peruse their application.

I totally agree with catching things early though. The key area of changes seems to be the Background for the character. Perhaps the draft format of an application should be handled differently, maybe in bullet points rather than detailed paragraphs?

Oh! Now what about this; Key events! Assuming an Application form is possible, you could have slots for key life events, bullet points that shape the character’s personality and can eventually be expanded into a full background. That way, not only does the player have to think about the character properly, but also those issues you mentioned are easily picked out early before they invest more time.

-edit, actualy forget that last bit, needs a full reponce of its own-

[Archturus]

Before I read more into this and glance at "5-hour responses" (based on which timezone? 3am posts will be ignored till awake and away from our full-time jobs and school/college)... would you kindly remind me and our staff and the Staff helpers how much we're being paid to provide this service?

...wow.

You are correct sir, but this is precisely the point I’m trying to make. There are people who have dedicated thousands of hours between them to making this forum run smoothly and advance beyond the expectations of its community. And every single minuet of that time has been donated. Not out of some suppressed cultural guilt or pity, but because they want to see this place flourish and become a part of the clockwork that keeps the community ticking.

As such we should be treating what time they can lend with respect, not wasting it on pointless menial tasks and repetition. Streamlining the applications process isn’t about happy customers, it isn’t a business in the first place. What is important is making use of the time everyone gives and making everyone involved feel as though they’ve contributed something important.

Would you rather help someone forge an epic life of a Pirate Baker, sailing the four seas and selling crumpets to far off barbaric lands? Or is that time better spent reminding someone that their app is impossible to read when presented in florescent pink?

[flutterscotch]

Here's the thing though. The application process doesn't affect your ability to RP in Free-for-All. Therefore your writing is technically not directly affected, which seems to be your main complaint behind the streamlining of the system. You want to consider any thread in Free-for-All that does not directly contradict the rules of the World of Equestria subforum and the show to be canon to your character? You can. It's cool. Nobody is keeping you from RPing a thread that YOU CONTROL, which can be as close or as far away from canon as you want it to be. If you are impatient with the application system, well, you can also just create Free-For-All app, post it in your logs, and if you want transition it/repurpose it for World of Equestria. Really, the only reason you NEED an application in that forum is to participate in forum events, and the only reason the application process is so strict is because it's SUPPOSED to be slice of life social interaction, so we want to make sure that nopony is surprised by overpowered characters. I am not sure why this seems to be so hard to communicate to people, as they seem to get caught up in the semantics of what the "proper" forum is when all that ultimately matters to your character and the perception of you as an RP-er is your own threads.

Nobody's stopping you from RPing, even with the relatively slow application process.

Also, keep in mind the new helpstaff were "hired" shortly before your arrival and we are still working through our own personal workflow and conflict resolution in regards to the rules, which you never see because it is done off-forum. So please bear with us before you attempt a complete overhaul of the systems. I am sure it will go much more smoothly soon.

A few personal concerns I have, which may differ from the opinions of other members of helpstaff, and are technically not rules. Beyond the fact that any kind of automation that provides auto-approval will just result in a bunch of people gaming the rules. Really, for World of Equestria, each of the applications needs to be read, understood, and considered for the verisimilitude of that particular forum.

Automation;

When first joining the forum and posting in the ‘introduction’ area, the new user is greeted by an interface constructed of simple questions and dropdown boxes. Why can’t this system be applied within the applications area? We have already established a standard format for all apps, so why give players the option of failing that particular aspect of character creation?

The creation of form that appears whenever a new post is created within this forum would save a considerable amount of time. This would include the reduction of such selective items as ‘Species’, ‘sex’, ‘age’, ‘colour pallet’ and ‘location’ to a dropdown selection, coupled with character limited description boxes where appropriate.

[colour=#282828] Location should also be generalized to regions and specifics left for the character background. Yes, there is a housing shortage in Ponyville, but that doesn’t mean that the character cannot live with reasonable proximity of the town. This applies to any rule that is seen as static; if you don’t want something to be a variable, don’t give applicants the option in the first place. It invites failure.[/colour]

Age, fine. Sex, fine. I conceed that these can be a simple drop down, but the rest of the items you suggest will basically pull a lot of life out of a lot of applications.

A dropdown for colors removes the possibility of using colorful language to describe your ponies. I personally abstain from referring to hex codes or "technical" colour names pulled off Pantone or or other standardized colour systems wherein colors are given "names" as those "names" are not always accurate to the colour and really just serve as a marketing word, therefore having people mention things like Prussian blue (which has a historical context, and is a colour that people should have a general idea of), and a colour like "sushi" which is the "technical" name of this hex code: #8BA942 is jarring and nonsensical, to say the least. . In my case, if my pony is, say, a gemologist, I will describe the colors involved in terms of naturally occurring minerals that are appropriate, a candymaker or baker would reference colors in terms of ingredients, even if they are less precise than hex codes, because while hex codes and proper marketing /PMS names are precise, they are BORING or just weird to read, especially when you're describing your golden yellow pony as "mimosa" all the time when he's a hard as nails train-pulling engineer.

It's precise, yes, but we are not working in a print shop where the preciseness of colour matters, or animating the show and need to reference on-model colors so that each scene matches up visually. We are describing ponies in a way that is entertaining for a reader. Often, the language your choose in describing your OCs really gives us the feel for the character. And helps, at least me, understand that YOU really understand your character.

You want to reference hex codes in a meaningful manner? Make a reference sheet and attach it to the application.

As for locations, beyond a geopolitical region, and specific cities and towns, which are only outlined so that other people joining a thread that takes place in those regions have an understanding of their surroundings, players are free to make up their neighborhood/subdivision/part of town within reason, or specify locations like the "middle of nowhere in a field between Ponyville and Fillydelphia". A dropdown nullifies that.

Build rules into the App Form;

[colour=#282828] Many things about a character application form should be self explanatory, but there are always exceptions. In addition to the rules / guidelines posts in FAQ and on the app section itself, each option box on the form should have an explanation link of some kind attached. Each opens a popup with both a short and ‘advanced view’ detailed explanation of what is expected within that part of the form. This ensures that all relevant information is to hand while creating the application, rather than stored elsewhere.[/colour]

We have trouble enough encouraging some users to read the rules as-is. Even when they are handed the specific link to their specific question or concern. Also, please keep in mind that as Canterlot is all-ages we do have many younger members who will find this more cumbersome than the existing rules' organization.

Moving Cast Apps;

[colour=#282828] Many cast apps are contested and thus have multiple threads concerning the same character spread across several pages. Again, this clogs the system. The creation of a dedicated Cast Application sub-forum would keep these apps nicely organized. Under this forum a altered version of the application form could include additional choices, as the tier of the proposed character. These changes could be integrated with the cast list to prevent characters being applied for if they are already allocated to a player. All available Tier One characters are listed on the initial ‘Name’ option as a dropdown list / auto complete, the latter flashing a warning if the named character is already taken. [/colour]

[colour=#282828] On a far lesser note; do we need to canonize every background character? There are some fanons that are obviously going to be contested, such as Ditzy, Lyra and Bonbon, Vinyl Scratch etc, but even the nameless faceless scene fillers seem to be mentioned here there and everywhere. Could these just be classified as OC with reference to their appearance? Perhaps an irrelevant comment, but I may as well throw that in here somewhere.[/colour]

Most cast applications are no longer being handled in the way you describe anyway, so that nobody on staff except Manestream and Helix see the application before it is ready for judging to cut out bias. See this thread.

As for tier 3: we actually do need to canonize every background character because you never know what will happen in the show, or if they will play a role in a plot. Therefore the cast designation allows us to request that adjustments are made based on what is discovered about the character in the show. That's why it's given that tag. Of course background and one-shot characters have different posting requirements, thus the tiers. A subforum would only accomplish the same exact thing that tagging them as main cast accomplishes already. For all intents and purposes they are considered OCs, UNLESS more than one person applies for the character when it becomes available, or the show canon begins to contradict the active application. The tagging of them just allows us to track them better.

[Rosewind]

Thanks for the suggestions! I agree that our system is not perfect, and a lot of the information presented is not clear, or not easy to find or understand. Rest assured, we're working on it.

This game has been around for roughly a year -- it's been built over time from a smaller system on a completely different forum, and exists as a cumulative work of hundreds of players, passionate about FiM and the rich RP experiences it can provide. I suggest you hang around here a bit more -- I think two weeks is not an ample enough time to really experience this community, or to understand why our system exists the way it currently does. As others have mentioned, a lot of the back-end work and problems are dealt with at length outside Canterlot, so your point of view regarding its disorganization is a shrouded one. However, you have provided a fantastic glimpse of your experiences as a new player in our game, and your input and suggestions are appreciated!

[RarityDash]

“When a system no longer serves the purpose for which it was designed, change must be sought.”

But it does.

if you're going to criticize the work we do, don't start off with a quote that does not accurately describe what you're criticizing. Our application review process does serve the purpose it was designed for. It is in place so that every app can be carefully analyzed so as to ensure that that character properly fits within the World of Equestria RP as it is presently laid out. It does this. Most apps are reviewed multiple times to ensure everything is both appropriate and reasonable for the RP environment. Apps that do not meet our standards do not get approved until they do. The system gives us the control we want.

Now if you mean only to say that the system is inefficient, then perhaps you could make an argument. The thing is, this system wasn't designed for efficiency, at least not chiefly; it was designed for accuracy. Apps can take time to be processed, but generally this is because it requires time to get it right. It all depends on the willingness and ability of the individual users to make needed changes. Every single app is worked on on a case by case basis and must be okayed by at least two on the RP team, at least one of which is a Senior RP Helper (and T3 cast apps need at least three people to approve them before they can be stamped).

Unfortunately, the system is not without delay and occasional oversight. Our RP team is large (10 RPH, 7 SRP), but we're all people with our own obligations and concerns. Sometimes things do get stopped up momentarily and sometimes someone will just overlook something. That's not a failing of the system though, it's just being human. And that's not to say that the system itself is perfect; as Rosewind says, what you say about our rules and guides and how they are presented is valid and a noted problem that we hope to someday soon rectify. There are other little ways we could possibly make it smoother and just better as well, I suppose. We are always looking to improve.

Generally speaking though, the system works as it is intended. Making it more automated and impersonal may make it go faster, but we're not looking for speed as much as we are scrutiny. The point of it all is to have a tight control on just what goes into the Mane RP. Right now, with the system in place, we are able to have just that.

[Autumn]

The reason we don't have an 'automated' application process with neat drop down boxes etc: (the official word)

Your application demonstrates to us your ability to write, format your posts, be creative and follow instructions.

Providing tick-boxes and the such dumb that demonstration down. You're proving to us that you're worthy of posting in that area, basically. It's not just a means of cataloging characters.

World of Equestria sections of the board are not free. They require effort and patience to get in. It's an exclusive club.

There are a million and one things we could do with the site. Things could be easier. Processes could be faster. But it's what we make it.

Believe me, we're WELL aware of the time frames involved and how things are run.

* You can find any rules and guides to creating characters and the RP sections here: http://www.canterlot.com/page/rules

* I'm afraid we can not EVER provide an ETA as to when your application will be 'processed' no matter what staff procedures are in place.

I can't stress enough that we're providing this site to you out of our own pockets, so please be patient. If you have to wait 2 weeks for staff interaction on your application, so be it. It just means we're perhaps busy. We're a small team with additional voluntary help from the RP helpers.

It's unfortunate that your original thread comes across as a little bit of a rant, it's perhaps not what you intended.

However if you have practical suggestions please keep them informative and simplified (to the point) preferably with practical solutions rather than a poorly thought out essay like the above.

When you're a little more experienced on the site you may start to understand why we have certain things in place (like tags) but until then, please consider the hundreds of other happy campers in the RolePlay group that haven't had any problems at all.

[Archturus]

Let me start off by thanking all of you for all those wonderful and prompt replies. A lot of personal concerns I have were razed, expanded upon and answered within.

I honestly did not mean to be rude and if I have offended then I do beg your pardon. No doubt you’ve heard many a complaint and criticism over the years pertaining to this subject. However my concern in this matter, while derived from my own experience, is more to do with the future inclusion of new members. FlutterScotch highlights the existence of the Free-for-all as a viable alternative while applications are in processing. Imagine yourself as a fresh faced former, lured by the wonderful community and quality of games within, only to be directed elsewhere?

Therein lays my riposte. While certainly true of those who have dedicated players already lined up, there is comparably little in ‘free for all’ when compared to the much expansive world that the main RP section represents.

And yet, my argument is inherently malformed. Crafting a character is like carving a statue from clay; it takes time and many slight adjustments to complete something convincing beyond the eye of its creator. Adding personal flare is central to this concept, bringing that character to life. It needs that detail to draw the personality out of the two dimensional plane and into the colourful world of our imagination. But this art from is not conjunctive to attracting new talent and healthy growth. Requiring a small army of helpers to clear the constant stream, it is still taking far more time then is available.

While I agree that applications need to be vetted by human eyes before accepting, there must be something that we can do to make the experience easier and quicker for both staff and applicants. The concept I outlined is an attempt to normalise the application process, removing some of the uncertainty from things like the format and ensure information is on hand for the writer.

As many of you have pointed out though, it is far from the perfect model. Indeed, this is precisely why I’m so interested to hear what everyone has to say on the matter. Having heard all the reasons why the system exists in its current format, I have to admit most of them are valid. This leaves me at something of a loss as too an appropriate answer.

Pealing back the layers of the onion leaves me with a core question, to whit; If there was something you could change about the current approach to applications, what would it be?