Does no one want the show to be about friendship anymore?

[CommanderPonyShep]

It seems that way. People liked the fight scene between Twilight Sparkle and Tirek despite the former soloing the monster at the expense of her friends, but hated not only the Rainbow Power and Rainbow Castle despite them promoting friendship, but also three of the five key episodes, including Rainbow Falls, It Ain't Easy Being Breezies, and Leap of Faith, all three of which gave Rainbow Dash, Fluttershy, and Applejack relevancy to the season-long story-arc.

Please tell me no one forgot about the show's core friendship motif!

[stormchaser1991]

i have not

[SunsetSombra]

Did you forget the end of that last episode focused on friendship and the bonds between friends?

I sure didn't!

[CommanderPonyShep]

i have not

Then why the Twilight/Tirek fight scene, but not the Rainbow Power and Rainbow Castle? The former didn't promote friendship, and the latter two did.

Also, Rainbow Falls, It Ain't Easy Being Breezies, and Leap of Faith were considered the worst of the five key episodes. That's unfortunate, because those three episodes, plus Rarity Takes Manehattan and Pinkie Pride gave all of the Mane Five relevancy to the season-long story-arc, even after their magic was stolen by Tirek and were held hostage for Twilight's alicorn magic.

[Corsair]

Not sure what you mean about the fight. Some people just don't like change. The people complaining about the Castle are probably the same people that complained about alicorn Twilight in the first place. Some people don't like change, and something like blowing up the library is too much change for them. As for Rainbow Power, the only real complaint I've heard is that the character designs are rather tacky, but those were dictated by Hasbro and not the production team. Not much you can do there.

As far as the 'Key' episodes: I'm a big Fluttershy fan. Most of the pony merch I've bought is Fluttershy, and I play Fluttershy in the RP here on Canterlot. That being said, "Its Not Easy Being Breezies" is one of my least favorite episodes ever in the show. I felt that the breezies themselves were worthless, and the writing of the episode was just bad. Does that mean I like Fluttershy any less, or that I don't want the show to be about friendship? Nope. Still love those things about the show. Sometimes, a bad episode is just a bad episode.

[smileyface1010]

No, its just that bronies love the fact that there can be a completely bad@ss fight scene in a show intended for little girls, which I have to say is pretty funny

The reason why people hated the rainbow power and the castle is that the designs were ugly (well also everybody loved Twilights old house and they replaced it with a thing that looked comepletely out of place in Ponyville) And people hated those episodes because Rainbow Falls had a million plotholes, Breezies was... okay, and Leap of Faith was boring to some people. No one hated it because they promoted friendship

[CommanderPonyShep]

No, its just that bronies love the fact that there can be a completely bad@ss fight scene in a show intended for little girls, which I have to say is pretty funny

The reason why people hated the rainbow power and the castle is that the designs were ugly (well also everybody loved Twilights old house and they replaced it with a thing that looked comepletely out of place in Ponyville) And people hated those episodes because Rainbow Falls had a million plotholes, Breezies was... okay, and Leap of Faith was boring to some people. No one hated it because they promoted friendship

Well, to me, the fight was a sign that My Little Pony jumped the shark. Twilight solo'd Tirek with godlike alicorn magic, while her friends became so useless and disposable. The Rainbow Power and Rainbow Palace, plus all five of the key episodes, gave relevancy to Twilight's friends.

I mean, didn't you have that problem with Dragon Ball Z? Tons of Goku's supporting cast all get left behind, pushed by the wayside, and made useless, despite the fact that most of them can use martial arts or, in Bulma's case, prove that you can be a scientist instead of a martial-artist and still be useful. Goku himself, meanwhile, becomes the only solution to everything, alongside Vegeta and their three sons, just because of his saiyan heritage. This, in-turn promoted a bad message to children, that if you're born into divine right like Goku, then you're special, otherwise if you're not like Yamcha or Krillin, then you're worthless.

And that's what describes the fans and what they liked and didn't like about Season Four, not just the finale but also the five key episodes. You know you want the show to stay true to its roots. But based on what you like and dislike, it seems like you'd rather that My Little Pony becomes so much about Twilight Sparkle, that all of her friends become pushed by the wayside and made useless and disposable, the same way DBZ made Goku so powerful that his friends become useless and irrelevant.

[Corsair]

Rainbow Falls wasn't bad, I just hated that it turned Spitfire and the Wonderbolts into self-serving dis-loyal jerks. They were willing to shove Soarin' to the side, and use their influence to drag Rainbow away from her team. Made them seem rather sleazy.

[DerpRavener]

I think you're making some unjustified assumptions here.

First off, I wouldn't say Twilight fights Tirek at the expense of her friends, as she only fights up until the moment he confronts her with their capture. As I recall, she basically surrenders the moment she thinks/realizes that they are in danger.

Second, and more importantly at least from where I sit: the reason I like the Twilight vs Tirek fight so much, and why I imagine others liked it though I can't confirm, is that I compare it to the other major duel we saw this season which was between Celestia and Nightmare Moon in the flashback. That was something that I had high hopes for, but as I was watching it it came across as dull. Basically I enjoyed the Twilight vs Tirek duel as much as I did, because to me it showed improvement on the part of the creators.

As to the other ones, Rainbow Falls I remember enjoying, Leap of Faith I think I liked except that it seemed a little contrived (it seemed to me like at times it was framing things as AJ having something to learn when the central issue seemed like other characters putting words in her mouth), Breezies I didn't mind but didn't particularly like as I don't see what the species adds to the setting, and as such it came across like the species existed just to create a problem for that episode.

My preferred episodes this season were the ones that focused on character relationships rather than weird magic, wacky situations or fighting villains, my favorites probably being Rarity Takes Manehatten, Maud Pie and Pinkie Apple pie. Personally I don't think whether or not an episode continues an external story arc should factor in to how good the episode is, in a show like this.

Rainbow power I just found kinda weird. I would have preferred some kind of clever plan for the mane 6 + Discord to get their magic back or defeat/subdue Tirek with their own devices rather than a deus ex machina.

Basically, I don't think that many people have forgotten the core concept (it's still half the reason why I watch the show and participate in the fandom at all), I just think there that a) there are a few other good things which have also gained attention, and b) that some of the best friendship episodes had little to nothing to do with the series-long arc.

Rainbow Falls wasn't bad, I just hated that it turned Spitfire and the Wonderbolts into self-serving dis-loyal jerks. They were willing to shove Soarin' to the side, and use their influence to drag Rainbow away from her team. Made them seem rather sleazy.

Now that you mention it, yeah I remember that being both a negative portrayal of the Wonderbolts and out of character for them. I wouldn't even have minded at all if they didn't seem like decent sorts in episodes from earlier seasons.

[CommanderPonyShep]

Does anyone even care about relevancy to a character in an overarching story? If not, then what explains Dragon Ball Z? Too many of the Dragon Ball Classic supporting cast all get left behind and made useless, while the only other character who catches up with Goku in-terms of relevancy were the saiyans and half-saiyans, including Vegeta, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks.

You all hated the way DBZ pushed too many of the supporting cast by the wayside, but don't mind Twilight's friends ending up the same way during the Twilight/Tirek fight.

...

Make some sense, man!

[smileyface1010]

Well, to me, the fight was a sign that My Little Pony jumped the shark. Twilight solo'd Tirek with godlike alicorn magic, while her friends became so useless and disposable. The Rainbow Power and Rainbow Palace, plus all five of the key episodes, gave relevancy to Twilight's friends.

I mean, didn't you have that problem with Dragon Ball Z? Tons of Goku's supporting cast all get left behind, pushed by the wayside, and made useless, despite the fact that most of them can use martial arts or, in Bulma's case, prove that you can be a scientist instead of a martial-artist and still be useful. Goku himself, meanwhile, becomes the only solution to everything, alongside Vegeta and their three sons, just because of his saiyan heritage. This, in-turn promoted a bad message to children, that if you're born into divine right like Goku, then you're special, otherwise if you're not like Yamcha or Krillin, then you're worthless.

And that's what describes the fans and what they liked and didn't like about Season Four, not just the finale but also the five key episodes. You know you want the show to stay true to its roots. But based on what you like and dislike, it seems like you'd rather that My Little Pony becomes so much about Twilight Sparkle, that all of her friends become pushed by the wayside and made useless and disposable, the same way DBZ made Goku so powerful that his friends become useless and irrelevant.

Yeah, I see what you mean. That was one of my biggest problems with the finale, actually. The whole story focuses on Twilight only and her friends are just... there. (The Crystal empire had this problem too, come to think of it.) Also about the fight scene- all of the alicorn magic vs the rest of the magic in Equestria PLUS the magic of the god of chaos ends up in a stalemate? I mean, I know alicorn magic must be powerful, but it seemed like Tirek should have one there.

About you second point, I don't watch DBZ so... yeah

And about your third point... well remember season one? And the beginning of season two? Where most of the episodes were simple slice of life stories? I believe those are the show's true roots. Hell, even the season one finale was just a slice of life story unlike the overarching plots we have for the rest of the finales (not that the overaching plots are a bad thing but... well you get my point) And I can see that the writers are trying to change up the show a little but still sticking to its roots. And thats a good thing. Some of the most liked episodes of season four are slice of life stores (ie Maud Pie) So yeah, i don't think people have forgotten the core concept of the show. In fact, they're encouraging it.

(Also, yay! Post 100 for me)

[CommanderPonyShep]

Judging by the way you all love the fight scene so much, because of how much it reminded you of DBZ... then why stop there? Let's add the following:

1. Tirek brutally murders all of Twilight's friends, including Discord.

2. All of Season Five is dedicated to just that one fight scene between Twilight and Tirek.

3. Tirek uses a mass extinction spell to bring all of ponykind to extinction, a la Majin Buu's Human Extinction Attack.

4. Tirek blows up Equestria with Twilight on it.

After all, plenty of that happened in Dragon Ball Z. So let's spread this all across MLP, since people hated three of the key episodes, the Rainbow Power, and Rainbow Castle! No more friendship anymore! Just awful and over-the-top violence, murder, and mass destruction.

[SunsetSombra]

I don't think anyone is really thinking about DBZ here other than you - comparisons aside, the situations are both entirely different.

Liking something from DBZ and seeing it represented slightly in another medium =/= people want the show to be DBZ.

[smileyface1010]

Whoa whoa whoa... WHAT?! What the fudgesicles are you talking about man? Okay, I'm guessing that was a joke or sarcasm or something, but seriously? I don't even watch DBZ, I just liked the fight scene not only because it was badass, but something like that is so rare in a show like My Little Pony. So if season five actually WAS like you just described, everyone would just hate it even more! They would be like "Ugh, another fight scene... Ugh, more violence..." and so on.

[QuickLime]

I suggest you calm down, ofcourse the others were supporting cast, this was TWILIGHT'S KEY EPISODE! Everyone else was supporting cast in the other main six's key episodes so makes sense here.

[Halide]

Judging by the way you all love the fight scene so much, because of how much it reminded you of DBZ... then why stop there? Let's add the following:

1. Tirek brutally murders all of Twilight's friends, including Discord.

2. All of Season Five is dedicated to just that one fight scene between Twilight and Tirek.

3. Tirek uses a mass extinction spell to bring all of ponykind to extinction, a la Majin Buu's Human Extinction Attack.

4. Tirek blows up Equestria with Twilight on it.

After all, plenty of that happened in Dragon Ball Z. So let's spread this all across MLP, since people hated three of the key episodes, the Rainbow Power, and Rainbow Castle! No more friendship anymore! Just awful and over-the-top violence, murder, and mass destruction.

What the actual... wh... What are you even talking about!?

This is why we don't let you write the show.

This reason right here.

[smileyface1010]

Quicklime has a point. I mean, none of the mane six were even in Leap of Faith (well besides AJ, obviously) And like I said before, most of the fandoms favorite episodes of season four were slice of life (Maud Pie, Pinkie Apple Pie, that Sweetie Belle one whos name is too long to type, and so on)

[RarityDash]

People don't like Leap of Faith? I thought it was one of the best of the season. It was AJ's best episode of the season, and if it wasn't as good as Pinkie Pride or Rarity Takes Manehattan, it was close. It had a mature lesson attached, a catchy song and an interesting plot.

As for the other two episodes, the problem was that they weren't very good. Breezies is easily my least favorite episode not just of season four but of the entire series. Rainbow Falls wasn't terrible I'd say; the second half has it recover a lot from its slow start. it's not great, but it's okay.

As for everything else, I just don't quite get it. Personally, for me, the show is about entertainment. I think people make more out of themes than they should. What I want is a funny, entertaining, well-written series that does interesting things with the characters I love.

I think the finale was great all around. The fight was fun because it was well animated and exciting and just fun to watch because we never see something like that in FIM. I think if people have problems with Rainbow Power, it has more to do with the visual look of them than the concept (which isn't ostensibly very different from Elements of Harmony). Same with the castle; most people complained about how it looked, not the concept. With the toyetic nature of FIM, I think that's always going to be a sticking point with fans. Personally though, I think the writers have proven remarkably good at making things work, no matter what Hasbro tells them to do.

So, no, I guess I don't care if it's about friendship. What I care about is that it's well written, fun to watch and stays true to the characters I love. That is all that should be important, I think.

[Apolline Allura]

For the record? People who have strong opinions on the show, who aren't content with everything in it, should still be counted no less as fans as everyone that does enjoy the show. Personally? I think there's a lot that the show has thrown in the face of it's themes, and as stated above, I /am/ reading into it too much. That doesn't mean I love it any less, or that I'm any less willing to delight and share in this world of pastel-colored equines. It's been four seasons. People are gonna talk. People are gonna want one of their favorite things to be the best it can be. So long as they're able to respectfully state their opinions, nothing is wrong.

[CommanderPonyShep]

I suggest you calm down, ofcourse the others were supporting cast, this was TWILIGHT'S KEY EPISODE! Everyone else was supporting cast in the other main six's key episodes so makes sense here.

And that's the thing.

Twilight's friends were given much more relevancy to the season-long story-arc with their respective key episodes, and no one liked three out of five of them because of sloppy writing. In this way, they're unintentionally devaluing the contributions Rainbow Dash, Fluttershy, and Applejack -- and in some regard, Pinkie Pie and Rarity -- all made toward unlocking the Rainbow Power box.

I mean, again, what about Dragon Ball Z? Tons of people didn't like the way so many of Goku's friends, especially the non-saiyan martial-artists like Yamcha and Krillin, all get left behind in-terms of relevancy and character-development, just to make way for Goku's godlike power-levels, as well as Vegeta's power levels and both saiyans' sons' power levels. The only time the non-saiyan cast -- and Hell, all of Earth in-general -- were ever useful was during the end of the Majin Buu arc, where upon being resurrected by the Namekian Dragon Balls, they all transferred their spiritual life energy into Goku's Spirit Bomb. Sure, the end of the story-arc was about as long, slow-paced and draggy as the rest of this and every other story-arc, but it was proof that Goku's power levels alone could not destroy Kid Buu.

But before all that, everyone on Earth was murdered and brought to extinction, and Earth blew up, and both of those scenes were designed as an excuse to demonstrate Majin Buu's godlike power-levels.

But you get where I'm coming from, right? Twilight is supposed to be a team with the Mane Five, and you know you have a problem when Twilight's magic is so godlike and powerful, that her friends would've been rendered obsolete. I'm not saying her friends need to turn into alicorns themselves, because that would be impossible. All I'm saying is that they shouldn't be useless when it comes to helping their own friend and leader, no matter what. I mean, the last few times they were useless included the following:

1. The ending to the Return of Chrysalis arc in the comics. It was the same situation as the Twilight/Tirek fight: Twilight's friends were held by Queen Chrysalis for ransom in-exchange for her magic, and then a big magic fight between Twilight and Chrysalis ensues while the former's friends just stayed by the sidelines providing moral support.

2. The Crystal Empire arc. Her friends could not join her in recovering the Crystal Heart, so the best Twilight could bring was the most useless member of her menagerie, Spike, despite the fact that he's the one who saves the Crystal Empire in her stead.

3. Equestria Girls. Twilight could not bring her friends to the human world because "it could disrupt the balance of the other world". So, she cheats on her friends for their humanized counterparts, a la Roger from American Dad, when he cycled between different families at the expense of the Smiths.

I thought the show was about friendship, and time and time again the writers of both the cartoon and the comics keep proving me wrong. Just because Twilight is the designated leader of her own team, doesn't mean she should get special privileges at the expense of her friends. And that goes for Goku as well; I mean, he'd train Gohan to surpass him, but never bother with all of his non-saiyan friends? If anything, Goku might as well be no better than his villains, keeping his own friends from being useful in their own unique ways, just to "protect" them.

EDIT: If anything, I'd argue that Luffy from One Piece, Yu Narukami from Persona 4, and Commander Shepard from the Mass Effect trilogy are far more efficient leaders of their own teams, than Twilight and Goku are to their own.

Even after Luffy chose to save his brother, Ace, without any help from all of his friends, only to fail, he eventually sends a message to all of his crew-mates to grow stronger in-terms of fighting capabilities, so that by the time they reunite two years later, the crew doesn't become a burden to Luffy. Yu Narukami, meanwhile, goes through each of his Investigation Team members' social-links, and as said social links increase, so do their fighting abilities. And, once they reach the end of their social links, their personas evolve, and their fighting capabilities fully max out. As for Commander Shepard, most particularly in Mass Effect 2, he had to resolve his squadmates' loyalty-missions so that they wouldn't become as much a burden in the suicide mission as Goku's friends were to Goku himself.

Leaders don't stunt the growth of their own teams. Instead, they increase it, so that the whole team could work together more efficiently, and not hold back their leaders. Unfortunately, that's not what describes Goku, and that's not what describes Twilight Sparkle, either. If anything, I'd argue that the two of them are amongst the worst leaders of their respective teams, if not the worst.

[Apolline Allura]

I do agree on a number of things in that above post.

Granted those are works we cannot hold Friendship is Magic to the standard of.

[QuickLime]

Twilight also was so powerful in that episode because she had all of the Alicorn magic in her

[CommanderPonyShep]

Twilight also was so powerful in that episode because she had all of the Alicorn magic in her

It also rendered Twilight's five friends obsolete and disposable.

I mean, people have tons of problems with the way Dragon Ball Z never lets any of its own supporting cast grow and develop as characters and retain relevancy to the story, especially if those supporting cast members are all martial artists themselves, just like Goku. And yet, when it comes to My Little Pony's Mane Five... they don't have a problem with the writers trading the disempowerment of the Mane Five for the empowerment of Twilight.

Um, did anyone watch Anita Sarkeesian's three-part Damsel in Distress video? Because that's what describes both Goku's friends and Twilight's friends right now. If not, then...

Damsel in Distress Part 1:

Damsel in Distress Part 2:

Damsel in Distress Part 3:

Technically, the Mane Five are not heroes in their own right. Instead, they're just possessions for Twilight to retrieve, who can't think and act for themselves and instead have to depend on their one, ultimate savior to break them out.

As for DBZ, there were times Akira Toriyama wanted to kill Goku after the Frieza arc and Cell arc, most likely because he became so powerful that it stunted the growth of all the other supporting characters. In killing Goku, he could help Gohan and the rest of the supporting cast learn to defend themselves without him. Unfortunately, fans in Japan wanted Goku alive and as the main-protagonist again, so Toriyama was forced time and again to resurrect him as the main-hero.

So if you're going to blame someone for all of this, blame the fans in Japan. The Japanese fans were the ones who stunted the growth and development of Goku's friends. The Japanese fans were the ones who made them so dependent on their ultimate savior, that they never think and act for themselves. In this way, the fans promoted a bad message, that humanity cannot think and act for themselves, and that they should rely on a higher power as a crutch, even if he makes bad decisions or stunts everyone else's growth.

[QuickLime]

Why do you keep talking about Anime as if FIM and Anime are even remotely the same thing?

[CommanderPonyShep]

Why do you keep talking about Anime as if FIM and Anime are even remotely the same thing?

Because tons of the audience kept comparing Twilight's fight with Tirek to Dragon Ball Z, even though it was an overrated, mediocre, commercialized work of sloppy art designed to sell merchandise during the 90's. I mean, say what you will about MLP being the same way, at least it was backed up by clever writing and a strong cast of characters compared to DBZ, at least up until the S4 finale.