What Do You Think of This?

[Astalakio]

This is something I raised in a different thread, but now I have charts. CHARTS!

My favourite kinds of episodes are ones that focus on the relationship between two of the mane six characters. My reasons are that this gives both characters enough room for development, and also serves as a chance for their friendship to be evolved and deepened.

It's fair enough to break these episodes up with single-character-centric episodes, and CMC episodes and the like, of course, that keeps things interesting.

In season one, we got a lot of these 'duet' episodes, but there are still some gaps for ones that haven't happened yet.

In season two the writers seem to be focusing on more sideline character relationships, EG. Rarity and Sweetie-Belle, or Applebloom and Granny Smith, which is fair enough, but there were plenty more possibilities for mane six interraction left over from season one!

I've been thinking about it, and I think this is the single reason I don't like season two SO FAR as much as season one.

It could all change, of course, we've got plenty of episodes to go yet. But there's my opinion on the matter.

On the charts, the terms 'All' and 'Single-Character' are kind of interchangeable, because it's difficult to define where one stops and the other starts. I'm pretty sure these charts are fairly accurate, though.

[DoctorWilliam]

I totally agree. I'd love there to be more episodes focusing on a duo or trio of the mane six and the relationship between each other. I was looking forward to a Applejack and Fluttershy episode, but I'm not sure we're going to have anything of the sort in season 2. Phooey.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Don't forget to add Applejack/Rarity in Sisterhooves Social. They had an interaction that was similar to Rainbow Dash and Pinkie Pie around Gilda in Griffon the Brush-Off (although I didn't really like that episode, personally.)

If sideline characters get the focus of an episode, are they still sideline characters at that point?

[DoctorWilliam]

I think sideline characters getting the mane focus of an episode should be occasional IMO.

[Astalakio]

hi hi

Don't forget to add Applejack/Rarity in Sisterhooves Social. They had an interaction that was similar to Rainbow Dash and Pinkie Pie around Gilda in Griffon the Brush-Off (although I didn't really like that episode, personally.)

If sideline characters get the focus of an episode, are they still sideline characters at that point?

I thought about that, but came to the decision that Sisterhooves Social had its main focus on Rarity and Sweetie-Belle, since it was those two who learned the moral of the story (that's one of the main things I'm basing these on), but if you think it's worth adding, I'll go ahead and do so.

[Rosewind]

I wonder, mathematically, how many possible groupings could exist between the mane six? Any mathematicians here want to take a stab?

[DoctorWilliam]

I think around sixteen possibilities. I'm not sure though. I'm horrible when It comes to math.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Honestly, we didn't really know the main characters until we got to know them in season 1. That discovery isn't really much different than getting to know other characters that we don't know. The way I figure it, season 1 got compared to Generation 3.5, but season 2 is being compared to season 1. Even if season 2 ends up being a little bit worse than season 1, the level of expectation is definitely much higher. I wonder what someone's reaction would be if they watched season 2 first.

Also: 15 pairings, 20 trios, 15 quartets, 6 quintets.

Edit: In any case, I don't think being a main character inbues a character with any special qualities. If there is one difference I can pick out about the character interactions in the two seasons, its that more of them are between people who are peers in season 1, while more of them are between people with unequal status in season 2. (child vs adult, etc.)

[bronyTom]

That is crazy detailed. I love crazy detailed this is amazing. I agree with you BTW!

[weesh]

I am most interested in RD/FS and RD/TS of the missing pairings. Great chart.

Also: 15 pairings, 20 trios, 15 quartets, 6 quintets.

I am ashamed to admit that when I was in college, I could do this. When I calculated it a few weeks ago, I used the google calculator.

[BlackJack]

I saw a graph like this before. I'm not saying season two is bad, because a lot of the time the development of the one character it's focused on or the detailed development of the world/side characters is more than what happened in season one (dismissing the fact that this is the first time we've seen the characters at all really), and some of the gags and easter eggs are pretty funny. But, there definitely needs to be more episodes here dealing with all of them, and more episodes dealing with one on one relationships between the Mane Six. How they act on their own can be completely different from how they act in a group. Pinkie Pie's whole character changed (in my opinion) in Baby Cakes and developed in a big way, but we don't see the consequences of this on the other characters, which could be rectified by adding a little bit more Twilight into the episode. Character development is great, but needs to be in context with the rest of the show and characters, much in the way the CMC development naturally lends to it, as they usually (with the exception of Cutie Pox and Sisterhooves Special) develop as a group anyway.

[ChancellorPuddinghead]

Would it be the end of the world if sideline/background ponies got an episode? Don't we want to see on with Octavia and Vinyl Scratch? Are we that confident that the fans can write better than the MLP staff? I want to see a day in the life of Derpy and she visits all the background ponies.

[Astalakio]

Would it be the end of the world if sideline/background ponies got an episode? Don't we want to see on with Octavia and Vinyl Scratch? Are we that confident that the fans can write better than the MLP staff? I want to see a day in the life of Derpy and she visits all the background ponies.

That would be cool, but I can't see it getting the go-ahead from the higher-ups. It would be marketted mainly to us, the bronies, who actually know these characters, and we know how much Hasbro insists on focussing only on their original target market. What's more, there are no toys based on the background ponies we love so much that the showing of which in an episode would bolster the sales of.

[Rosewind]

With the background pony thing, I'd be super careful about wanting it to happen. Here's why:

FiM follows a very specific design, following at least one of six mane characters in an episode. There are the other secondary characters (CMCs, Spike, Celestia, etc.) but they are more or less developed characters that are suitable for whatever story the writers throw at them.

Now, let's take a look at Derpy. Imagine if they shaped an entire episode around, say, a typical day in her life. Or maybe she tries to deliver mail to an Ursa Major. While those might be interesting episodes, adding depth to her would only set up something much worse. Maybe she won't even deliver mail -- what if the creative powers decide to have her as a house painter? The more you try to shape, change, and flesh out the character -- especially a character with heavy fanon -- the more opportunity there is for disappointment. We see this quite often with the wacky canon (and the laments of the hardcore RP crowd), as the elements of the series are -- by design -- quite malleble to the creators. I'm waiting for the day we might see Vinyl/Pon-3 without her glasses; what if her eyes were green instead of red?

I think the popularity of the background pony crowd should probably be explored in a much different way, one that doesn't require direct involvement or a spotlight on the character, but in a way that they can participate in the story in some way without upsetting the creative expectation we have for them -- much in the way they actually do now. I'd say probably the best example of this would be Pipsqueak. He looks really neat as a character, but we really don't know that much about him, and we haven't seen him since Luna Eclipsed. He was cute and memorable enough, but the focus was never on him.

TL;DR - Trying to make episodes about background ponies is a bad idea because it might end up making the character less interesting.

[PulseWave]

Exactly. Already now, after The Last Round-up, there's an outcry that this one scene right after the intro sequence had the whole show jump the shark. It's not my opinion, though, but some say so.

[Rosewind]

Exactly. Already now, after The Last Round-up, there's an outcry that this one scene right after the intro sequence had the whole show jump the shark. It's not my opinion, though, but some say so.

I was thinking about this, and I was wondering if I needed to change my view. I actually liked how the episode opened with Derpy and Rainbow. The only real character development is that her name, Derpy, is 100% without a doubt canon, and she has a voice now. There's not really any character development that could spoil her as a character to speak of, as the other background ponies get a few lines now and then, too.

[Ashton]

Now, let's take a look at Derpy. Imagine if they shaped an entire episode around, say, a typical day in her life. Or maybe she tries to deliver mail to an Ursa Major. While those might be interesting episodes, adding depth to her would only set up something much worse. Maybe she won't even deliver mail -- what if the creative powers decide to have her as a house painter? The more you try to shape, change, and flesh out the character -- especially a character with heavy fanon -- the more opportunity there is for disappointment. We see this quite often with the wacky canon (and the laments of the hardcore RP crowd), as the elements of the series are -- by design -- quite malleble to the creators. I'm waiting for the day we might see Vinyl/Pon-3 without her glasses; what if her eyes were green instead of red?

This is exactly why I believe we will NEVER see Trixie again. (Though I still say I'd LOVE to see a poster for her or somone comment about seeing one of her shows - just to know she's ok and didnt go commit suiside or something after Twi showed her up) The writers got slapped *HARD* when they expanded on Luna's canon and (obviously) didnt follow the fanon that everyone had set up for her. For this reason Background ponies will, over all, be treated the same way as props and given very little action and what they are given will be minor, unimportant, and wont hurt any Fanon. (I think while the writers are not allowed to read fanfics, I think they are kept abreast of what characters have huge fanons and they try to write around these (fairly easy since we're mostly dealing with BG ponies to begin with) to avoid backlash.)

[Ashton]

Exactly. Already now, after The Last Round-up, there's an outcry that this one scene right after the intro sequence had the whole show jump the shark. It's not my opinion, though, but some say so.

The writers are letting the fans influence the show quite strongly. It's one thing to let us name a character - there have been plenty of 'naming contests' in dozens of shows over the years, but they're essentially allowed us to completely create and shape a character from the ground up and they pander to us using her (remember Derpy was an art error in 101 - she wasn't technically supposed to even exist) I can certainly understand people's worries, and in a worst-case Scenario, I can see Derpy being a more integral part of the show and becoming a Scrappy.

On the other paw, this is one background character who got a minor promotion in terms of screen time. It's not like this 1 gag left any major change in the overall series. The series 1 finale had a much larger risk, heck 'secret of my excess' was more at-risk because it revealed a MAIN CHARACTER RELATIONSHIP and also they *could* have had spike responsible for destroying the town (since he was) and had him face severe consequences. There are a lot of places that the show could have jumped the shark but didnt. I think this is a minor gimmic (which sadly I doubt will be repeated again for some time - I expect them to go back to the formulaic 'wheres derpy?' for her)

[Rosewind]

I'd bring back Trixie just to see the fan freakout. We never expected Derpy to ever have a voice of her own...but here we are!

[Ashton]

I'd bring back Trixie just to see the fan freakout.

I'll be honest, that's a very immature viewpoint. Yes, we're all like discord at times and love to see chaos at work, but think about this:

There are a lot of fans who are on the fence, or just got into the series, a sudden jar like that could send the away before they got hooked enough to buy any merchandise (because, lets face it, the whole point of FiM isn't to entertain, and it isn't to educate, it's to sell merchandise) Not only that, but there are a lot of fans who, with every episode, are unhappy with how it went and it wouldn't take too much to pushed them out of the fandom.

On the other end of the spectrum, what would be GAINED by this? In a slice-of-life series like FiM, Trixie really has no role to play. Had the series been more arc-based she could have been a recurring villian, or a nemesis. As it is, the only thing she might do is serve as a direct foil to Twilight in a "my magic is better than your magic" the same way that AJ and Dash act as foils to each other in physical strength. This gives a couple new storylines and a few new sight-gags but really doesnt add much to the story as a whole.

In short, at this point in the series it would be too big of a gamble to bring Trixie back. There is no solution that will make all of us happy. (Just to point it out, I'm not in the "I Trixie" camp. She's a villian and that's what I'll always see her as) Hasbro's best solution right now is to simply leave her out of the story so they don't anger a large percentage of fans. Truly the only "safe" option *IS* as I suggested and make a reference to her somewhere that's not plot-dependent and really is just a filler or sight gag.

No matter how the do it, if they bring Trixie back, that WILL be the day they jump the shark.

[Dessa]

Meanwhile, at the topic...

I agree completely, Asta. Even Spike, who I used to count as .5 of the mane 6 (though we see him so little now) doesn't seem to get much Spike + Twi time. The show is still funny, but it's just coasting on all the character development set in the first season.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I don't get this. There's been lots of character interactions and development going on. Twilight and Luna had a clever role reversal in Luna Eclipsed where Twilight got to be the teacher for a change. Sisterhooves Social was full of new stuff about characters, I mean, Sweetie Belle actually has a character of her own, rather than just one of the CMCs. Rainbow Dash has been riding a roller coaster of self absorption and humility. Rarity got to step outside of her own point of view in Sweet and Elite. Granny Smith isn't just a two dimensional stereotype anymore.

I dunno, certainly there must come a point in a friendship where you're going to know more about someone than you don't.

[Rosewind]

I'll be honest, that's a very immature viewpoint. Yes, we're all like discord at times and love to see chaos at work, but think about this:

There are a lot of fans who are on the fence, or just got into the series, a sudden jar like that could send the away before they got hooked enough to buy any merchandise (because, lets face it, the whole point of FiM isn't to entertain, and it isn't to educate, it's to sell merchandise) Not only that, but there are a lot of fans who, with every episode, are unhappy with how it went and it wouldn't take too much to pushed them out of the fandom.

On the other end of the spectrum, what would be GAINED by this? In a slice-of-life series like FiM, Trixie really has no role to play. Had the series been more arc-based she could have been a recurring villian, or a nemesis. As it is, the only thing she might do is serve as a direct foil to Twilight in a "my magic is better than your magic" the same way that AJ and Dash act as foils to each other in physical strength. This gives a couple new storylines and a few new sight-gags but really doesnt add much to the story as a whole.

In short, at this point in the series it would be too big of a gamble to bring Trixie back. There is no solution that will make all of us happy. (Just to point it out, I'm not in the "I Trixie" camp. She's a villian and that's what I'll always see her as) Hasbro's best solution right now is to simply leave her out of the story so they don't anger a large percentage of fans. Truly the only "safe" option *IS* as I suggested and make a reference to her somewhere that's not plot-dependent and really is just a filler or sight gag.

No matter how the do it, if they bring Trixie back, that WILL be the day they jump the shark.

How is my point of view "immature"? You're assuming too much on your end. When I said "I'd bring back Trixie just to see the fan freakout," I meant more as a cameo, not a full-blown character that will perpetuate in pony canon forevermore. Have her peek out a window or something.

Would Trixie's inclusion send negative waves to people? Of course. Nobody will ever be satisfied with anything. There are some neighsayers against Derpy's new and updated role in the episode last Saturday. Also, everyone has their own set of standards of what constitutes a good episode. My Party of One could be your Mare Do Well, it's all a difference of opinion regarding that. If people are ready to "abandon the fandom" over the inclusion of a background character, maybe they need to reevaluate what the series is to them, and why they enjoy it. It certainly makes no difference to me if you stop liking the series over something that happens in the show. I'll still enjoy it.

That said, I think you're wrong about what FiM is. Is it created to entertain? Yes, it is. It does this very well, by design. Is it created to educate? Not specifically, but it always has a message with something good to teach behind it. Is it created to sell stuff? Yes, it is, but that is not its focal point like the previous generations before it -- Ms. Faust saw to that when she insisted that merchandising only be placed in episodes where it makes sense. Twilight's balloon is a great example of this. (I'm sure somepony else can confirm the former point I just made, I'm too tired to dig it up tonight.) For these reasons, I believe your statement about what FiM wasn't created to be isn't as validated as you might think.

Is Trixie a villain, or an antagonist? I think she's an antagonist. She's not really evil, and she doesn't hurt anyone. She even makes friends with Snips and Snails (one-sided as it was). I think she is a pretty neat character -- we didn't see much of her, but I personally would like to see her gain some sort of redemption. While that might be out of the scope of some big story arc, FiM does practice a light form of continuity -- a good example would be pets. Twilight's owl didn't reappear (unless I'm mistaken) until Find a Pet, but he did make a reappearance from an episode from last season. Also Luna got an episode after, what? Five seconds of face time in the second episode of season one. By that token, if it made sense for Trixie to reappear to help tell a story, I think it would be really neat to see how the fans would react.

I hardly think that is an "immature" or undeveloped opinion.

[Ashton]

You did not clarify in your prior post, I think anyone on the outside looking in could easily misunderstand your comment as "I would bring trixie back as a main character just to **** up all the fans and watch the flame wars as the fandom tears itself appart!" And that is what I based my post around. (Many of the points you made were the same ones I made - I said many times I'd love to see just a reference to her at some point so we know that she didn't commit suicide)

FiM and Hasbro are two very seperate entities (made obvious by the inacuracies in most of the earlier FiM toys) I firmly believe Hasbro Inc doesnt give two trots about the show, if it was nothing mroe than a single tone being played for 22 minutes, but sold the toys, they would be happy. Meanwhile the FiM writers dont really care about selling toys (I remember one was upset in May the Best Pet Win at having to include the "photo shoot" segment because Hasbro wanted to sell a "Dress-up Rainbow Dash" toy that, all things considered, was less than logical in canon)

My personal estimate is that there is a minimum of 2 callbacks to earlier episodes in each new episode (possibly more) some are extremely minor, like a background item, some are very blunt and in-your-face (most obvious being Sonic Rainboom and Cutie Mark Chronicals where the whole plot is a callback) I personally find this is a wonderful way to handle the series since they didnt want it to be heavily arc-based (even if I personally would prefer tightly serialized, I know it would never work with the target demographic)

trixie's status has been argued many ways. I like to think that Snips and Snails are not so much 'friends' as 'toadies' and she would gladly sacrifice them in the name of revenge. However, to be fair, despite writing her as a manipulative *******, I did give her a chance not to pass the moral event horizon and even have a redeption story (cheesy as it is, yes, I tried and even made her an additional "secondary" element of harmony - the element of Redemption) but in the end, I was very unhappy with it and felt like I'd forced her into a mold she didnt fit. Everyone has their own interpretation of the characters.

would she take a spork and brutally murder twilight? No. would she humiliate twilight, blackmail her, and overall make her life a living hell, even if it means releasing and taking into her own body an eldrich abomination? oh yes she would!

Now would either of those happen in Canon? Unlikely. (I wont discount whatever 'force' made Luna into NMM taking over trixie, but I'm gonna be shocked if the plot heads that way) Would they use Trixie in a utilitarian way to advance a plot? That's quite possible, though I think after the explosion over Luna, they're specifically avoiding her. Maybe she'll show up in the series finale, since they'll no longer have to worry about angering the fans then.

[Rosewind]

You did not clarify in your prior post, I think anyone on the outside looking in could easily misunderstand your comment as "I would bring trixie back as a main character just to **** up all the fans and watch the flame wars as the fandom tears itself appart!" And that is what I based my post around. (Many of the points you made were the same ones I made - I said many times I'd love to see just a reference to her at some point so we know that she didn't commit suicide)

Um...no. What I wrote was this:

I'd bring back Trixie just to see the fan freakout. We never expected Derpy to ever have a voice of her own...but here we are!

The second sentence reinforced the tonality of the first statement that I shared -- I said the unexpected happened with Derpy, and it was positive. I made it very clear that if Trixie came back, I think it would cause a big stir in the fandom. This was to emphasize my point that the background characters can cause a big stir if they're introduced to the series in unexpected or surprising ways. Vinyl Scratch/Pon-3 would probably get just as much reaction, as would the dozen or so other BG ponies. Octavia had a recent reprise, if I'm not mistaken, and it garnered positive response.

Now that's all clarified, I don't think you speak for "Anyone outside looking in," but just yourself and something that you -- to my misfortune --misunderstood:

I think anyone on the outside looking in could easily misunderstand your comment as "I would bring trixie back as a main character just to **** up all the fans and watch the flame wars as the fandom tears itself appart!" And that is what I based my post around.

Please don't put words in my mouth (and then call my opinion immature). I'm all for having an intelligent discussion about pony, but I feel that goal is going to fall short if you're making wild assumptions about what you think was said and what was actually said.