Canon death

[FrankT]

Assassination plot?! In a kid's show? I dread to think of it!

[Ashton]

Nah, she would simply seperate into two slightly smaller pinkies.

Oh gawd I wish I had the talent to draw this now!!!

But when the robot is a good guy, and one of the main characters that children come to love and admire, it is still rather upsetting for them to die.

This. the death of Optimus Prime was one of the most disturbing movie moments I remember from my childhood...

[Skye]

Guys, also keep in mind.

This is a show intended for little girls. Unlike Transformers, which was intended for boys for whom death and violence and such was considered a mainstay of growing up, for little girls it's more intended to be a social environment. Thus, violence and death just isn't supposed to be a normal part of their upbringing. While this is why many of them turned to watch He-Man and Transformers on their own the heart of the matter is that this is a cartoon about cartoon ponies and death most likely will not have a major place in it because the show is supposed to be upbeat and positive because that's the best way to teach good morals. I don't understand why there are so many people who keep trying to bring such negative concepts to FiM such as death, or violence, or any other concepts that you would see in a boy's show. That's not what this show is about. Yes, Hasbro brought about Transformers. But Transformers is not My Little Pony. That kind of death and those kinds of storylines are not essential to the telling of My Little Pony stories. It's just not.

[Rosewind]

Guys, also keep in mind.

This is a show intended for little girls. Unlike Transformers, which was intended for boys for whom death and violence and such was considered a mainstay of growing up, for little girls it's more intended to be a social environment. Thus, violence and death just isn't supposed to be a normal part of their upbringing. While this is why many of them turned to watch He-Man and Transformers on their own the heart of the matter is that this is a cartoon about cartoon ponies and death most likely will not have a major place in it because the show is supposed to be upbeat and positive because that's the best way to teach good morals. I don't understand why there are so many people who keep trying to bring such negative concepts to FiM such as death, or violence, or any other concepts that you would see in a boy's show. That's not what this show is about. Yes, Hasbro brought about Transformers. But Transformers is not My Little Pony. That kind of death and those kinds of storylines are not essential to the telling of My Little Pony stories. It's just not.

It's a show targeted for little girls, but I think it's safe to say it has transcended its intentions. FiM was also designed for parents -- and by extension and good design -- everyone else to enjoy as well. It was designed to challenge the concepts that cartoons for girls should be overly feminine, and only deserving of certain quality expectations, which -- up until a little over a year ago -- were remarkably poor.

Something doesn't have to be upbeat and positive to teach a good lesson. I think some of the darker-toned episodes have something important to teach and share to all of us, not just the target audience. Why should violence and death only be a feature of cartoons designed for boys? Why shouldn't a series be designed for boys without these things, too? Why can't a girls' cartoon explore death? Last time I checked, girls are just as mortal as boys. It's an important lesson everyone will have to learn in their lifetime, preferably as early as they can grasp what death is.

To say that a certain element or lesson doesn't belong to a series because it doesn't fit its supposed mantra -- especially a cartoon that has challenged and broken so many rules -- isn't doing any favors for the series and community. I think it's for this reason that the expectation is there for heavier subject material to make an eventual appearance.

Will it happen? Who knows. FiM still manages to surprise me every week, and only time will truly tell.

I should add that if an episode was featured where something died, it would probably be done in a very clever way that would steer away from the grimdark. There's a lot of creative ways to do this while staying loyal to the focus of the cartoon.

[Skye]

It's a show targeted for little girls, but I think it's safe to say it has transcended its intentions. FiM was also designed for parents -- and by extension and good design -- everyone else to enjoy as well. It was designed to challenge the concepts that cartoons for girls should be overly feminine, and only deserving of certain quality expectations, which -- up until a little over a year ago -- were remarkably poor.

Targeted, Intended, they are the same thing for this purpose. It's written and artworked to appeal to the children as well as their family, but the targeted and intended audience is the children. Therefore, it's going to be written from the standpoint of the children first and families secondly. It's not going to be written specifically to appeal to the adults with the children as an afterthought ever. And you can challenge the concepts of being overly feminine without getting overly negative. It should go without saying that there's a discernable difference between a bloody nose and a decapitation. Anyone who can't tell the difference between these two very different type of injuries needs to have their head examined.

That goes for just about everything else. There is a particular level of trauma, either fatal or nonfatal that can be determined simply by diagnosis. A bang or a scrape is going to usually be nonfatal unless it is involved to such a degree that severe shock would set in. However these are cartoon ponies, I must stress again, and as a result, they will never suffer 'fatal' injuries like we will. It will only ever be a matter of a plot point. What would be fatal for one point may not necessarily be fatal for another. So the question is asked, is it necessary to have that level of violence at all? Likely not.

Why should violence and death only be a feature of cartoons designed for boys? Why shouldn't a series be designed for boys without these things, too? Why can't a girls' cartoon explore death? Last time I checked, girls are just as mortal as boys. It's an important lesson everyone will have to learn in their lifetime, preferably as early as they can grasp what death is.

To say that a certain element or lesson doesn't belong to a series because it doesn't fit its supposed mantra -- especially a cartoon that has challenged and broken so many rules -- is doing a real disservice to the series and community. I think it's for this reason that the expectation is there for some heavier subject material.

Will it happen? Who knows. FiM still manages to surprise me every week, and only time will truly tell.

I should add that if an episode was featured where something died, it would probably be done in a very clever way that would steer away from the grimdark. There's a lot of creative ways to do this while staying loyal to the focus of the cartoon.

Violence and Death is a feature of cartoons designed for boys because the toys and concepts are specifically geared towards encouraging that kind of mindset. There will always be a type of mindset between boys and girls that will never be completely eradicated. Not by one another and certainly not by themselves. There are certain levels of violence that will be expected between one another, but the impact of such will certainly be different. Look at when the Mane 6 fought the Manticore. In a boy's cartoon, they would have beaten the beast to a pulp. It appeals to the natural nature of boys to be proud of their prowess over one another. But girls don't generally need to seek that. They need the satisfaction of being able to solve a problem with whatever means was necessary, and often that means using their brains. That scene was designed to appeal to that.

As for the rest of your comment, I only have to say this. It's the expectations of the fans that they are going to delve into many realms and concepts just because those fans are also fans of those concepts and realms. But the show itself is not intended to delve into those realms. While Hasbro has shown that they're willing to integrate some fan desires into the show, the show itself and as an extension, its intention and target, is very specific and different.

I ask you this. When was the last time you saw a Transformers or G.I. Joe episode that dealt with them sitting around having tea and discussing social concepts and bonding on an internal level? I can't remember a single one. But you'll see it in My Little Pony. I think that's what most of the fans don't quite understand. And there is a difference between being overly feminine and girly, and being social. What FiM is about, and this is from Lauren herself, is breaking the mold of being stereotypically girly, but that there's nothing wrong with being a girl either. You only have so much time in each episode to favor certain concepts with each character, and each character is specifically designed to appeal to a particular mindset of girl.

[DashieInTheDark]

Let me bring this to your attention peeps.

The Powerpuff Girls, following the same "target audience" and having a similar feel to FiM, has ALSO dealt with the idea of "death"

No, I'm not talking about the "criminals" that get put in jail, either. I'm talking about a very particular scene that some of you MAY have forgotten or never even seen.

In an episode, The Professor buys the girls toys from the toy store, and their greed gets the best of them. Eventually, they end up having The Professor buy them toys while sleep walking. Eventually, he finds out about what is going on, pretends to not notice, and goes to the toy store with them to buy them more stuff. (I believe I got this right, haven't seen it in years..) While "shopping", the FBI (Or was it Swat?) team shows up, and shoots The Professor. The gun shots look real, and the shots DO look painful. They "shot him" fr stealing the toys, because he would break into the store at night. After getting shot, the girls scream, and run over to his "dead body" crying. Their greed got the best of them, it took their "father's" life, and they feel terrible. Turns out that they were plastic darts that they shot at them, and it was all his plan to teach them a lesson. Now mind you, this is over a 3-4 minute scene, so for the most part, it felt really real. It didn't feel like "there would be a happy ending" either. The feeling and emotion was there, and quite frankly, if they weren't toy darts, it would not have aired.

Tell me, how could this not be considered death. It made it into a "girls" cartoon that is less "girly" than this. If you need more examples, I have tons.

Canon "death" is possible in this show. Be it a dream, or "fake" deaths. The concept can happen. Don't tell me it can't. Because the simple fact that it can. It might not, but that doesn't mean it can't.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

It appeals to the natural nature of boys to be proud of their prowess over one another.

I'm not sure what this has to do with boys in particular. Girls can be proud of their prowess too, and often are. My sister is very proud of her accomplishments in athletics and academics. She was out there running in the rain when the boys track team was sitting indoors on more than one occasion. People seem to think that there is this gigantic gap between what a girl is and what a boy is, but in every peer reviewed study out there, all they've been able to find are some slight differences. (The only real exception being upper body strength, and even that has plenty of outliers.)

There has always been more differences within groups than across. Men are about 5% more aggressive than women, but are you going to judge 95% of people based on the most extreme 5%? I think that would be silly.

[Rosewind]

Targeted, Intended, they are the same thing for this purpose. It's written and artworked to appeal to the children as well as their family, but the targeted and intended audience is the children. Therefore, it's going to be written from the standpoint of the children first and families secondly. It's not going to be written specifically to appeal to the adults with the children as an afterthought ever. And you can challenge the concepts of being overly feminine without getting overly negative. It should go without saying that there's a discernable difference between a bloody nose and a decapitation. Anyone who can't tell the difference between these two very different type of injuries needs to have their head examined.

That goes for just about everything else. There is a particular level of trauma, either fatal or nonfatal that can be determined simply by diagnosis. A bang or a scrape is going to usually be nonfatal unless it is involved to such a degree that severe shock would set in. However these are cartoon ponies, I must stress again, and as a result, they will never suffer 'fatal' injuries like we will. It will only ever be a matter of a plot point. What would be fatal for one point may not necessarily be fatal for another. So the question is asked, is it necessary to have that level of violence at all? Likely not.

Violence and Death is a feature of cartoons designed for boys because the toys and concepts are specifically geared towards encouraging that kind of mindset. There will always be a type of mindset between boys and girls that will never be completely eradicated. Not by one another and certainly not by themselves. There are certain levels of violence that will be expected between one another, but the impact of such will certainly be different. Look at when the Mane 6 fought the Manticore. In a boy's cartoon, they would have beaten the beast to a pulp. It appeals to the natural nature of boys to be proud of their prowess over one another. But girls don't generally need to seek that. They need the satisfaction of being able to solve a problem with whatever means was necessary, and often that means using their brains. That scene was designed to appeal to that.

As for the rest of your comment, I only have to say this. It's the expectations of the fans that they are going to delve into many realms and concepts just because those fans are also fans of those concepts and realms. But the show itself is not intended to delve into those realms. While Hasbro has shown that they're willing to integrate some fan desires into the show, the show itself and as an extension, its intention and target, is very specific and different.

I ask you this. When was the last time you saw a Transformers or G.I. Joe episode that dealt with them sitting around having tea and discussing social concepts and bonding on an internal level? I can't remember a single one. But you'll see it in My Little Pony. I think that's what most of the fans don't quite understand. And there is a difference between being overly feminine and girly, and being social. What FiM is about, and this is from Lauren herself, is breaking the mold of being stereotypically girly, but that there's nothing wrong with being a girl either. You only have so much time in each episode to favor certain concepts with each character, and each character is specifically designed to appeal to a particular mindset of girl.

Targeted and intended are not the same. Targeted has a very specific audience in its design. An intended audience implies it might apply to one group, but it isn't pigeonholed into keeping with one theme or extreme. You'll note that FiM has a variety of episodes to it -- adventure, slice of life, social mechanics, whatever have you -- and nearly all of them can apply to adults as well as children. If it was targeted to little girls specifically, the relevance and meaning would obviously be just to them. It isn't, and never has been.

I'm not sure how fatal injuries are coming into play in this discussion. If you look at Philomena, she "ashed" after being sick for a time. There was nothing violent about her "death," and it was temporary -- but only after the story hammered home that the bird was gone. This is just one example that I'm surprised hasn't been brought to this discussion more.

I totally agree with you that there's nothing wrong with being a girl. I'm a female myself. I'm just bringing some different angles to what you're saying. I should point out that -- again, by design -- the Mane 6 tackle their problems in different ways. The biggest example I can give is the contrast between Twilight and Rainbow Dash. Twilight uses her brain, RD prefers to use prowess to hammer her way through a problem. Both examples prove that females are capable of handling problems in different ways, too, and it doesn't always have to be through lovey dovey social interactions that so many cartoons targeted for girls have spat out.

I can understand why you dislike the negativity around the series and others' desires for darker and more serious material to be a part of it. I agree we will never see that side of FiM because that's not what it is. There's no argument there. But that doesn't discount the fact that death or other serious issues shouldn't be included on the basis of what they are, as FiM has proven that it can go about teaching a lesson in a fun, interesting way that makes sense for what it is, without going overboard.

hi hi

I'm not sure what this has to do with boys in particular. Girls can be proud of their prowess too, and often are. My sister is very proud of her accomplishments in athletics and academics. She was out there running in the rain when the boys track team was sitting indoors on more than one occasion. People seem to think that there is this gigantic gap between what a girl is and what a boy is, but in every peer reviewed study out there, all they've been able to find are some slight differences. (The only real exception being upper body strength, and even that has plenty of outliers.)

There has always been more differences within groups than across. Men are about 5% more aggressive than women, but are you going to judge 95% of people based on the most extreme 5%? I think that would be silly.

Once again Ginger, you bring a very interesting point to the table of the discussion. I very much agree with you!

[Ashton]

I don't understand why there are so many people who keep trying to bring such negative concepts to FiM such as death, or violence, or any other concepts that you would see in a boy's show.

Look at the site stats, Skye, a lot of us, a lot of the brony fandom as a whole, are male.

You'll notice nobody's INSISTING that there WILL be or HAS to be one of these, just that it's *possible* Everyone here will and has said it's NOT LIKELY. this is all a theoretical discussion.

[DashieInTheDark]

Nothing.

Nothing is impossible. Don't disregard something as "not possible" because you don't know. This applies to everything.

[SirShadowdeath]

I would imagine more of a "sealed away forever" kind of death.

I.e. Discord...?

[Ashton]

This was mentioned in another thread, but I thought I'd bring it up here.

Over a Barrel, at the end of the "shootout" there was a moment that looked very much like the Chief was dead and not getting back up, the entire music shifted, the attatude of the characters changed, it was very somber and seemed like there was going to be no happy ending... I'd call that a very hard 'touch' on death there, so in retrospect I think even moreso that the team *could* handle death in a logical and well-constructed manner.

[tacobob]

This was mentioned in another thread, but I thought I'd bring it up here.

Over a Barrel, at the end of the "shootout" there was a moment that looked very much like the Chief was dead and not getting back up, the entire music shifted, the attatude of the characters changed, it was very somber and seemed like there was going to be no happy ending... I'd call that a very hard 'touch' on death there, so in retrospect I think even moreso that the team *could* handle death in a logical and well-constructed manner.

Yeah. TV Tropes had a bit on this one, they said, "At the end of the battle in the town, the way the apple juice from the pie that hits Chief Thunderhooves is dripping reminds this troper of a head wound causing blood to drip down the face."