Magic the Gathering Libraries(decks) discussion

[Ciraxis]

What format is this for? What format allows 2 brainstorms AND sol ring?

Looks super fun. Not terribly focused, but at this power level, you can give up some power for some variance.

Only one Workshop? Lame. [/sarcasm]

I was really confused about the inclusion of vesuva while I was reading it as Mishra's Factory.

*Is Library of Leng really worth it? How often does it do anything? If it were a reliquary tower it would at least be a mana. Similarly, Ivory tower looks ineffective since you won't tend to have a full hand. Or do you somehow?

*Seems like a solo Tolarian Academy would work well if you had one.

*Reconstruction is pretty classy. Its been a while since I've seen one in a deck.

*Is steel hellkite better than Wormcoil engine maindeck? My steel hellkites don't often survive to get to attack.

*Why isn't master transmuter maindeck?

*Do you like Kozilek better than some big bashing artifact creature?

*Every card is kind of answer off my opponents deck. Good point with Library tought...but look lower.

Ivory Tower is answer to one of most fun bounce decks I ever seen. But you kinda rigth there too weesh. Once in a while I rotate them out in favour of Sensei's Divining Top+Future Sight+Etherium Sculptor/Cloudkey combo - infinite draw for the win.

*I have the Tolaria Academy...but come on! Let's give a fighting chance.

*Steel Hellkite is bane of one of my most frequent opponents - tokens. I do put Wurmcoil (and Metamorphs) when I go against burn. I allows me to race with them efficiently. And as much as I like Wurmcoil lack of trample always irritates me. So yeah, flying is better. He also has a firebreathing (metalbreathing?) so I can do something with all of this mana in that rare occastion when Ruins are not on the table.

*When Master Transmuter is in, Master of Etherium is out as he isn't really needed anymore with such big guns. At that point whole deck shifts - like the transformer - from control one into artifact stompy. Predator is all creature removal I need and counters protects me from WoG effects.

*Kozilek is there for 1) Deck recusion. There are times when Reconstruction and Ruins are not enough. He protects from the mill too (yeees, I know it's not the the big upside but he saved me from on lockal tournament from Memory Adept. I kinda have a soft spot for old Kozi since then) 2) With so much mana Kozilek not being Artifact guy paradoxically helps. After game two my opponents offten bring lot's of artifact removal and sudden appearance of Eldrazi is nasty surprise. And he gives card adventage no matter what, even if he eats counter.

*And nswering first question - this is casual off course. I have little interest in offical tournaments.

Next time I will present a Simic deck.

[weesh]

Wow. Show and Telling an Omniscience with a deck like this is crazy.

But I don't think this deck is worth the money it takes to build it. It is almost like the second sunrise deck, or high tide, in that it is playing a game of solitaire. It is very non-interactive. Opponents won't have much fun playing against it either because it will feel like someone is puppy kicking either way.

This deck will have one of my ultimates on the field on turn three a good 75 percent of the time and by turn 5 100% of the time when starting hand is kept.

I am sure both numbers are wrong. In order for the second to be true, you have to draw one of 16 "cheater" cards by your 5th turn (12 total cards), half of which can be killed before you use them, all of which can be countered AND you have to draw one of 14 ultimate creatures by then AND you have to hit your land drops AND you have to survive that long! Note that with 36% mana sources, the expected number of lands on the draw by turn four is 3.95, so you are going to miss with some frequency.

I'm not saying that it isn't likely, just that it isn't 100%.

Also, though both calculations are complicated, I believe 75% is too high for the first one. I calculate the odds of having one of your sorceries by turn three on the draw to be 79%, but that doesn't account for bad land draws, counters, drawing the tutor on turn three, and not having an eldrazi.

But assuming you still want to make it, I have a few words:

The deck should be reduced to 60 cards, and it should have at least 24 lands.

Lets talk creatures:

No arguments about Emrakul. He is an all-star here, even if you are not casting him. He is wicked powerful, has evasion, AND is hard to deal with.

Ulamog is indestructible, so he is cool too.

Kozilek is not awe-inspiring. If he is doom bladed, you got nothing out of him. And you might have helped your opponent cheat something killer.

The pathrazer and the artisan are similarly "weak" comparatively to what you could be doing.

The artisan especially has almost no targets for his reanimation.

If you just want it to be an eldrazi deck, more power to you, and why not "It That Betrays" over the Artisan?

Otherwise there are things with haste like Hellkite Overlord and Akroma get in at least once.

Or things with shroud or indestructible that escape most removal like Empyrial Archangel, Inkwell Leviathan or Blightsteel Colossus.

Reactive Cards:

The counters are obviously to protect your stuff, but by trying to force this stuff out quickly, you will seldom have the mana in reserve. This deck doesn't want to interact with the opponent, so these are kinda weird.

Cheaper ones like Mana Leak are useable on your critical second turn, when you have nothing else to do, and something like Boomerang can help you clear monsters that you helped your opponets to get.

[weesh]

I have the Tolaria Academy...but come on! Let's give a fighting chance.

LOL!!!!!

"I put Mishra's Workshop in my deck but Tolarian Academy? That is going to far..."

: )

*Steel Hellkite is bane of one of my most frequent opponents - tokens.

Oh.

Wow.

I need to make more decks with those. I have a magic group where I deal with tokens every game without fail.

[Ciraxis]

Belive me or not weesh, in my opinion Workshop is more balanced then Tolarian Academy. I can only use this mana to cast artifacts - nothing else. No instant draw, no abilities - artifact or not, no Tezzeret, no counterspells. Workshop only upside is that I can Vesuva it and even then I only bring one.

Tolarian Academy on other hand? It's stupid, it's broken, it's nuts! What fun it gives to my opponent? At last they can count that I will be mana screwed unlikely it is. But Academy? It's faster then anything. The only thing that can race with is is Gaea's Cradle+Rofellos, Urzatron and some wacky colorless artifacts decks based on Cloudpost+Glimmerpost+Vesuva combination...and the last one are crippled by lack of colored spells.

[weesh]

Belive me or not weesh, in my opinion Workshop is more balanced then Tolarian Academy. I can only use this mana to cast artifacts - nothing else. No instant draw, no abilities - artifact or not, no Tezzeret, no counterspells. Workshop only upside is that I can Vesuva it and even then I only bring one.

Tolarian Academy on other hand? It's stupid, it's broken, it's nuts! What fun it gives to my opponent? At last they can count that I will be mana screwed unlikely it is. But Academy? It's faster then anything. The only thing that can race with is is Gaea's Cradle+Rofellos, Urzatron and some wacky colorless artifacts decks based on Cloudpost+Glimmerpost+Vesuva combination...and the last one are crippled by lack of colored spells.

Oh, the Academy is most certainly stronger.

But there is no doubt that we are comparing two broken cards! How do you draw the line?

[Ciraxis]

Line broke under the power level.

And did I promised to share Simic deck didn't I? Well I will bring devour deck too, starring our new friend from Planechase - Thromok the Insatiable OM NOM NOM NOM.

[weesh]

Line broke under the power level.

What does this mean?

I would have the same sigh upon seeing each of the following cards in a casual game: sol ring, workshop, academy. The fact that some are worse than others doesn't factor into it for me.

[Ciraxis]

I can agree with Workshop and Academy but not with Sol Ring anymore. After showing up in FtV: Relics, and espacially in Commander it's not unusual to run into one these days. Heck I have 15 and each of my friends, compareble number.

As I promised, Simic deck. Graft was such fun mechanic that it's the shame it didn't got much spotlight. Maybe it will be back eventually, like the Bloodthirst?

(1)Birds of Paradise x4, Brainstorm x2, Training Grounds x3

(2)Coiling Oracle x3, Aquastrand Spider x2, Counterspell x2

(3)Cytoshape x2, Voidslime x2, Dosan, the Falling Leaf, Trygon Predator x3

(4)Garruk Wildspeaker x2, Tezzeret Gambit x2, Rite of Replication,Cytoplast Root-Kin x2, Cytoplast Manipulator x2, Viral Drake x2

(5)Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, Doubling Seson x2

(6)Jugan, the Rising Star, Vigor

Lands:

Novijen, Heart of Progress

Pillar of the Paruns x2

Tropical Island x2

Breeding Pool x4

Simic Growth Chamber x2

Forest x5

Island x4

Works pretty good. I am still working on the sideboard and will welcome any suggestions. Any comments is also appreciated.

In the next post - Devour decks. Expect to see Doubling Seson yet again.

[weesh]

I can agree with Workshop and Academy but not with Sol Ring anymore. After showing up in FtV: Relics, and espacially in Commander it's not unusual to run into one these days. Heck I have 15 and each of my friends, compareble number.

A card's absolute power is unrelated to its rarity or the number in circulation. I've got sol rings too, but when I put them in decks I understand that they are one of the game's most powerful cards. Feel free to use them, but, please, don't pretend they are in a class below the other insane mana generators.

I'll analyse the deck for power later, but a few shallow comments:

Lots of wonderful cards that I love: Rook-Kin, Aquastrand Spider, the Gambit, etc...

Also note that Voidslime was likely flavored as slime because the R&D code for its casting cost is "GUU". : )

[TotalEcplise]

So what you all think of the Golgari and Izzet decks coming out?

Dredge is an awesome mechanic and overload looks like it could get crazy if they make more cards with it.

The decklists

[weesh]

There are not any new cards that I am interested in, but both mechanics look cool and it will be good to see the other cards with them.

[Ciraxis]

I was thinking for that R/G tocken deck for quite a while, I tell you. Here it is.

(1) Birds of Paradise x4. Llanowar Elves x 4, Sensei's Divining Top

(2) Dragon Fodder x4, Rise of the Hobgoblins x2, Growth Spasm x4, Fist of Ironwood x4

(4) Sarkhan Vol x2, Ulasht, the Hate Seed x2, Parrallel Lives x4, Leyline of Vitality

(5) Mycoloth x2, Thromok the Insatiable x2, Garruk, Primal Hunter x2, Doubling Season x2

Lands:

Taiga x2

Rootbound Crag x3

Forest x9

Mountain x6

Sideboard:

Shatterstorm x2

Beast Within x3

Beacon of Creation x3

Naturalize x3

Eternal Witness x3

Chandra, the Firebrand x2

Comet Storm x4

It was really, really tempting to throw Gaea's Crandle into the mix but I resisted the Dark Side. As always comments much appreciated.

[weesh]

I prefer white as the secondary color to my parallel lives token decks, because they are so efficient at tokens, by I have done red before as well. The reason to use red over white is to efficiently turn the tokens into damage. Well, Ulash makes a good case on his own. Maybe give your tokens "haste" and reach with kyren negotiations, or double (quadruple? octuple?) them with Chancelor of the forge. Or finish them with Burn at the stake, or furystroke giant. Also, you can't go wrong with a couple of lightning bolts, though I've been defaulting to seal of fire recently.

One of my favorite token cards recently has been Fresh Meat. Which is often game ending when played, and reduces the risk of an all in Mycoloth if you can pull both off on the same turn.

I'm not a fan of thromok or the fist of ironwood. They don't look bad here, but I think you can do better...unless you your goal is the unnecessary insanity of an impossibly big trampler....which looks like a lot of fun.

[Ciraxis]

My first concept with Thormok was Fling. Then Runes of Deus and then Borborygmos. I also pondered over the Fresh Meat but is it really so needed with Planeswalkers? However some advice about Fist of Ironwood replacemant would be appreciated. Other cards that didn't made in but I considered are Dragon Broodmother, Mitotic Slime, Predator Ooze (mabe for Fists?)more Leylines, Brindle Shoat, Dragonlair Spider, Lumberknot, Beetleback Chief and Hellion Eruption.

Next time - Mono White Ally deck (with Soldier subtheme).

[weesh]

As for fresh meat, it is not necessary, and it can be frustrating. I like it a lot in my WG tokens, because there are so many good token generators with instant speed, so you can be ready to increase your board presence OR make them regret a wrath of god. However, nobody expects it, and it is SOOOOO much fun to play, and gives you all kinds of flexibility.

To replace the fists, there is the new Krenko's Command, which isn't punked with a doom blade nor does it require you to already have board presence. I'm also a bit of a fan of nest invader. But yeah, the two drop token maker slot is kinda sad.

Beatleback chief is excellent, and siege-gang commander is also fun.

You have a lot of mana sources, so maybe jade mage or ant queen? Those seem scary with the doublers.

[UnitP0N13]

I got Dark Ascension for my first deck, and right off the bat I ended up getting Sorin Markov, but I suck at white/black, so yeah. I aslo didn't get any Immerwolves for my green/red werewolf deck. I'm still a bit suckish at the game, mainly to the lack of fore thought, but I've had my moments where I pulled of a major, table turning, victory even on the verge of my losing by orchestrating the final attack very carefully. Mainly on my brother though. But he has Avacyn Restored, and he got freaking Avacyn. Stupid angels. The only thing that could make me cry is if he gets a booster pack and gets the Platinum angel, and he plays during a match. I plan on getting a Soul Bond green/blue and putting my un-werewolf cards into the green and maybe run a mono-green.

Ghoul Tree soul-bonded to Wolfire Silverheart! 14/14 and 8/8.Whatchyu gonna do, WHATCHYA GONNA DO?! Edit: Oh. It's Mythic Rare. No matter, I'll buy the deck anyways, and pray I at least get one.

Also, I traded a Beguiler of Wills for Blighted Steel. Mainly becuase I'm not touching my blue deck until I find another deck to pair it to.

[Ciraxis]

Last time I promised and Mono-W Ally deck with a Soldier sub-theme added to the mix. I must say I am sorry but that was a lie. There will be no Soldier sub-theme Anyway, here we go.

(1) Hada Freeblade x4, Ethereal Haze x3, Land Tax x2

(2) Kazandu Blademaster x4, Ondu Cleric x4, Wall of Omens x4, Balance, Honor of the Pure x2

(3)Ghostway x3, Ajani, Caller of the Pride x2, Kabira Evangel x2, Oblivion Ring x3

(4)Join the Ranks x2

(5)Gideon Jura x2, Reveillark

Lands:

Cavern of Souls x3

Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Contested War Zone

Hall of the Bandit Lord

Plains x15

Sideboard:

Silence x4

Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Reveillark

Yosei, the Morning Star x2

Oblivion Ring

Cloudshift x4

Isochron Scepter x2

Divinity of Pride x2

Parallax Wave x3

Belive me, it's fun. As always, comments, advices and opinions will be appreciated.

[weesh]

I'd be a bit annoyed to play that deck. There is no format that is ok with multiple balances. The most powerful white card ever created is restricted in vintage for a reason. And especially since you are planning to abuse it with ghostway, I'd say you need to take one out. Ghostway is an awesome card in general! It is lots of fun, and it was practically made for allies. Also, it turns the walls from being good to great.

In play-testing this, have you found contested war zone to be a problem? It seems like with no flying defense beyond Gideon and the hazes, you would have trouble keeping it on your side of the board. Also, in the early game, you want to develop a board presence, since each ally keys off of each other. You might be forced to choose between trading early or losing a land.

At the four drop slot, do you like Talus better than the instant that makes two allies? If it were a sorcery, I would agree with you, but having another instant makes the whole deck better. You can pass late turns with mana up, threatening the haze, the ghostway, or serious ally synergy. As it is, you are short on tricks. That is ok, but that substitution is mostly upside in my opinion, though I have not played against Talus, so it is hard to say for sure.

What are you plans for Jareth? I'm not seeing what who he helps you against.

[TotalEcplise]

Ally triggers shouldn't work with ghostway, permanents brought into the battlefield simultaneously with cards like ghostway or Warp World don't trigger each others abilities, because all of them enter the battlefield at once.

That was changed in like 09 i think.

Warp World rulings (there is literally no way for the allies to interact from cards like ghostway that return everything simultaneously because every permanent returns at the same time, no stack.)

4) Each player puts all artifact, land, and creature cards revealed this way onto the battlefield. All of these cards enter the battlefield at the same time.

Only whenever *This creature* enters the battlefield effects trigger, like Aether adept.

[weesh]

Actually, it works beautifully:

603.6a Enters-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent enters the battlefield. These are written, "When [this object] enters the battlefield, . . . " or "Whenever a [type] enters the battlefield, . . ." Each time an event puts one or more permanents onto the battlefield, all permanents on the battlefield (including the newcomers) are checked for any enters-the-battlefield triggers that match the event.

This ruling is what made that crazy valakut/shiftscape combo crazy.

[Ciraxis]

I'd be a bit annoyed to play that deck. There is no format that is ok with multiple balances. The most powerful white card ever created is restricted in vintage for a reason. And especially since you are planning to abuse it with ghostway, I'd say you need to take one out. Ghostway is an awesome card in general! It is lots of fun, and it was practically made for allies. Also, it turns the walls from being good to great.

In play-testing this, have you found contested war zone to be a problem? It seems like with no flying defense beyond Gideon and the hazes, you would have trouble keeping it on your side of the board. Also, in the early game, you want to develop a board presence, since each ally keys off of each other. You might be forced to choose between trading early or losing a land.

At the four drop slot, do you like Talus better than the instant that makes two allies? If it were a sorcery, I would agree with you, but having another instant makes the whole deck better. You can pass late turns with mana up, threatening the haze, the ghostway, or serious ally synergy. As it is, you are short on tricks. That is ok, but that substitution is mostly upside in my opinion, though I have not played against Talus, so it is hard to say for sure.

What are you plans for Jareth? I'm not seeing what who he helps you against.

<slaps himself> I complety forgot about Join the Ranks. Your right weesh, triggering the Ally abilities is worth far more then Talus and it is imprintible on Scepter. Instead of second Balance I put in Reveillark. It's fits nicely both as the air defense and deck recursion and like the Wall is made even better with Ghostway. Jareth was a filler, he indeed does not fit. I put two Yosei and second Reveillark for him and one Linvala in the sideboard. To show this I updated decklist in my previous post.

[TotalEcplise]

................

[TotalEcplise]

Actually, it works beautifully:

This ruling is what made that crazy valakut/shiftscape combo crazy.

That combo is a perfect example of what im saying.

It only works when you already meet Valakut's requirements after you sac lands and get more. If you sac lands for scapeshift and you go below 5 moutains, it doesnt matter how many mountains you fetch, Valakut doesn't trigger because you didnt have 5 mountains and all of the other mountains entered simultaneously.

Valakut

The rule even says it.

603.6a Enters-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent enters the battlefield. These are written, "When [this object] enters the battlefield, . . . " or "Whenever a [type] enters the battlefield, . . ." Each time an event puts one or more permanents onto the battlefield, all permanents on the battlefield (including the newcomers) are checked for any enters-the-battlefield triggers that match the event.

None of them are on the battlefield after ghostway they all enter at the same time. Anything with an ability like that the ones on the battlefield are triggered by everything entering, the ones entering trigger only themselves because they technically resolve at the same time with no order to them.

Same deal with warp world. How can you get beast tokens from a rampaging baloth when it and every land you reveal enter simultaneous? The effect which allows the interaction doesnt even exist when they enter the battlefield.

Allies are unique because they trigger themselves...

Not trying to be that guy, but that was the interpretation given to my by my fellow player Alec and he's a judge at FNM.

[TotalEcplise]

Last time I promised and Mono-W Ally deck with a Soldier sub-theme added to the mix. I must say I am sorry but that was a lie. There will be no Soldier sub-theme Anyway, here we go.

(1) Hada Freeblade x4, Ethereal Haze x3, Land Tax x2

(2) Kazandu Blademaster x4, Ondu Cleric x4, Wall of Omens x4, Balance, Honor of the Pure x2

(3)Ghostway x3, Ajani, Caller of the Pride x2, Kabira Evangel x2, Oblivion Ring x3

(4)Join the Ranks x2

(5)Gideon Jura x2, Reveillark

Lands:

Cavern of Souls x3

Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Contested War Zone

Hall of the Bandit Lord

Plains x15

Sideboard:

Silence x4

Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Reveillark

Yosei, the Morning Star x2

Oblivion Ring

Cloudshift x4

Isochron Scepter x2

Divinity of Pride x2

Parallax Wave x3

Belive me, it's fun. As always, comments, advices and opinions will be appreciated.

I friend of mine play a tri color ally deck..my god, so much headache!.

Anyway, I fooled around with what I liked in the Golgari deck and came up with this for fun. I kept it to 1 or two of the good creatures so that my friends didnt flip tables.

Creatures x23

Doomgape

Dreg Mangler x3

Elves of Deep Shadow x4

Eternal Witness x3

Gleancrawler x2

Golgari Grave Troll

Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord x3

Korozda Guildmage x3

Splinterfright x3

Sheoldred, The Whispering One

Other Spells x13

Grim Flowering x3

Life from the Loam x3

Maelstrom Pulse x4 (teh he he, they hate MP)

Twilight's Call x2

Lands x24

Barren Moor

Dakmor Salvage

Forest x8

Golgari Rot Farm x2

Svogthos, the Restless Tomb

Swamp x10

Tranquil thicket

Side Board (mostly for MP)

life's finale x3

Hurricane x3

Discarding is the most annoying thing in the universe so I removed that theme from the deck in favor of constantly beating people into the ground. It'll probably change again when RtR drops.

[weesh]

None of them are on the battlefield after ghostway they all enter at the same time. Anything with an ability like that the ones on the battlefield are triggered by everything entering, the ones entering trigger only themselves because they technically resolve at the same time with no order to them.

The rule specifically says that newcomers are checked by everything if they enter simultaneously. As long as you got at least 6 mountains and at least one valakut, each mountain would see five other mountains, and they would all trigger for each valakut.

Check out this legacy list:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/769

Furthermore, here is an official ruling from Gatherer:

10/1/2009: If multiple Mountains enter the battlefield under your control at the same time, Valakut's second ability could trigger that many times. Each ability takes into consideration the other Mountains that entered the battlefield at the same time as the one that caused it to trigger.

---

As for your deck, it is kinda complicated. Suggestions are very hard to make because they could upset the balance. Perhaps the new Jared's Orders could help you fill graveyard and pick out the creatures that you need? In that case, you could get away with fewer copies of Jared, etc. I suspect that you might worry this might make the deck too consistent and you friends wouldn't like it?