Flim Flam question?

[elsporko]

If the apples were smart they would have made a deal to sell apples to Flim and Flam on the condition that Flim and Flam can only sell cider after the Apples sell out of what they have. They would be selling the same amount of cider but also additional apples.

Although I've never cared for this episode. It has quite a few story points that don't really line up. I think there were multiple plot ideas that never got quite ironed out.

[starswirlthebearded]

If the apples were smart they would have made a deal to sell apples to Flim and Flam on the condition that Flim and Flam can only sell cider after the Apples sell out of what they have. They would be selling the same amount of cider but also additional apples.

Although I've never cared for this episode. It has quite a few story points that don't really line up. I think there were multiple plot ideas that never got quite ironed out.

They were con artists, they would have said something that would have prevented that plan to be done.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Starswirl hits it right on the nose. The Flim Flam brothers may have been wearing a facade of reasonableness and geniality, but ultimately their intentions were not honest.

Flimflam: also known as con game, con, scam, grift, hustle, swindle. An attempt to defraud a person or group by gaining their confidence, exploiting characteristics such as honesty, vanity, compassion, credulity, naivety and greed.

As I've said before, the telling moment was when they make their first offer and Applejack says that at such a rate, they'll lose the farm, and the Flim Flam brother's basically say, "No deal? That's ok, we'll just have to run you out of town anyway." Which should have let the audience onto the fact that it was their plan the whole time.

[elsporko]

We are suppose to believe they are con artists based on the name and the archtype but they never showed themselves to be con artists. They are shady business men but they never con anybody or are stopped from conning anybody. It looks like they are going to be con artists but then it goes into the John Henry man vs machine story.

I think there were two idea for which way the story was going to go, Apples getting conned or Apples show working hard can beat modern technology. Then somewhere in the writing process they combined them leading to inconcistant themes.

[starswirlthebearded]

We are suppose to believe they are con artists based on the name and the archtype but they never showed themselves to be con artists. They are shady business men but they never con anybody or are stopped from conning anybody. It looks like they are going to be con artists but then it goes into the John Henry man vs machine story.

I think there were two idea for which way the story was going to go, Apples getting conned or Apples show working hard can beat modern technology. Then somewhere in the writing process they combined them leading to inconcistant themes.

I don't know how people could make the claim they weren't con artists. (Well perhaps that is showing how well they were written) They used the Apple family's pride and vanity (with some desperation to appease the townsfolk) to drag them into a competition where they had everything to lose and NOTHING to gain. They knew they would refuse the deal, and immediately started going after the Apple family's pride and vanity to excite and rile them up to get them into a vulnerable position. That is a classic con.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that in this day and age people still fall for the oldest tricks in the book. Having these conversations has convinced me that the lesson in Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 is even more important for kids than I first thought, although apparently it could have been a bit more clear.

The enemy in this episode was always the Flim Flam brothers, not their machine. The writers do a number of things in this story to make sure that it isn't a John Henry vs The Machine moral.

• John Henry wins against the machine. The Apple Family loses.

• It takes the apples more than 4 times the horsepower just to keep up.

• John Henry challenges the rail company to the test. The Apple Family initially decides to try reaching a deal, accepting that if its better for everyone than it would be a good idea. Only after the Flim Flam brothers propose an obviously bad deal do the Flim Flam brothers challenge the Apple Family to a test.

• The only reason the Flim Flam brother's cider didn't taste good is because they turned off the safety features on their machine.

That last point is critically important to the moral of the story. This is not a moral about how technology is bad, this is a moral about how technology is good or bad depending on the user. The Flim Flam brothers misused their own device and they payed the price.

Edit: Friendship is Magic actually does this a lot, taking classic tales and tropes, then twisting them around. Look at Canterlot Wedding for example, they take the classic knight and shining armor saves damsel in distress story and turn it around 180º.

[elsporko]

I don't know how people could make the claim they weren't con artists. (Well perhaps that is showing how well they were written) They used the Apple family's pride and vanity (with some desperation to appease the townsfolk) to drag them into a competition where they had everything to lose and NOTHING to gain. They knew they would refuse the deal, and immediately started going after the Apple family's pride and vanity to excite and rile them up to get them into a vulnerable position. That is a classic con.

If they manipulated them into the contest and set it up so that they would win no matter what (like a game of three card monty) they would be con artist. Instead they made the Apples want to compete in a game they would likely lose but not because any rules were broken (like a legit game of blackjack at a casino)

[starswirlthebearded]

If they manipulated them into the contest and set it up so that they would win no matter what (like a game of three card monty) they would be con artist. Instead they made the Apples want to compete in a game they would likely lose but not because any rules were broken (like a legit game of blackjack at a casino)

So you are saying hustlers are not con artists? The game is seemingly fair, but not the conditions.

Edit: They knew, under normal conditions, that the Apples would not be able to win. Their overconfidence was their undoing (and Twilight's ability to organize). That doesn't mean that it was not a classic con.

[elsporko]

Flim and Flam did nothing to make it look like they would not win the competition. Hustling is deceptive. If I went to a pool hall, played every game my best and talked about how good I was, then made bets I would not be a hustler

[starswirlthebearded]

Flim and Flam did nothing to make it look like they would not win the competition. Hustling is deceptive. If I went to a pool hall, played every game my best and talked about how good I was, then made bets I would not be a hustler

Directly from the wiki article "Hustlers may also engage in "sharking" – distracting, disheartening, enraging or even threatening their opponents, to throw them off."

Now... what is it that Flim and Flam did to get the Apples to accept the competition...? I believe they INSULTED and ENRAGED the Apple family by antagonizing them.

[TemplarFrost]

derp

[elsporko]

Directly from the wiki article "Hustlers may also engage in "sharking" – distracting, disheartening, enraging or even threatening their opponents, to throw them off."

Now... what is it that Flim and Flam did to get the Apples to accept the competition...? I believe they INSULTED and ENRAGED the Apple family by antagonizing them.

I guess I'm a con artist then. I insulted family pride of other people by saying there is no way they could possible beat me in Scrabble. And of course my favorite hustlers in fictional history are the bullies in Back to the Future who Flim and Flam base their tactics off of

[starswirlthebearded]

I guess I'm a con artist then. I insulted family pride of other people by saying there is no way they could possible beat me in Scrabble. And of course my favorite hustlers in fictional history are the bullies in Back to the Future who Flim and Flam base their tactics off of

You would be if your tactics involved unfair bets and goals of swindling, which the Flim Flam brothers did.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

There is a reason why gambling is illegal in many places and considered immoral in different philosophies.

Where I live, it is legal but regulated, a common argument is that going to a casino is entertainment, and that the person who is statistically doomed to throw their money away is really just paying for that entertainment. I don't think that the Flim Flam brothers were trying to perform a service for the Apple Family that would justify an expense though, entertaining or otherwise.

[Boss_Hoss1]

Flim and Flam were definitely playing with a stacked deck and did everything they could to "honestly" (Well as far as a Canterlot court of law would rule they did it "leagally" and "honestly"..) set up the competition, even going so far as to snottily say "SO?.." and roll it into a normal reply of "..what will it be?" when AJ said they would lose the farm if they agreed to this.

They could not imagine they were going to be dealing with all the mane 6 and their unique talents. I have to wonder if they even knew AJ was a heroine of Equestria and a bearer of the Element of Honesty?

If the two had kept the farm, I imagine their shady management practices would have the farm become a 40 acre desert in a year..

[elsporko]

I know what they were suppose to be, but the episode failed to show it. If you stretch a definition far enough anybody can fit in it. The episode simply was poorly wriiten and not focused enough to show Flim and Flam to be the scam artists they are suppose to be. What they did was legitimate. Apple family had something to gain, they didn't want competiition coming in on their monopoly. The terms were fair for both sides and clearly laid out without loopholes. If the actions of Flim and Flam are villinous then the actions of the Apple family are as well. Here you have a family owned business that refuses to let in outside investors and when those investors decide to get outside apples to make their own cider the family gets mad on them for moving in to "Sweet Apple cider country" despite an overall disatisfaction with the job being done with cider production in Ponyville

[starswirlthebearded]

I know what they were suppose to be, but the episode failed to show it. If you stretch a definition far enough anybody can fit in it. The episode simply was poorly wriiten and not focused enough to show Flim and Flam to be the scam artists they are suppose to be. What they did was legitimate. Apple family had something to gain, they didn't want competiition coming in on their monopoly. The terms were fair for both sides and clearly laid out without loopholes. If the actions of Flim and Flam are villinous then the actions of the Apple family are as well. Here you have a family owned business that refuses to let in outside investors and when those investors decide to get outside apples to make their own cider the family gets mad on them for moving in to "Sweet Apple cider country" despite an overall disatisfaction with the job being done with cider production in Ponyville

The Apple family was villainous?! For not allowing competitors to use THEIR crop in THE COMPETITOR'S machine, for 25% of the gross profits?! That is villainous?! I'm sorry, that is ENTIRELY LEGITIMATE! The Flim Flam brothers came in with big words and a machine they knew they could use to drive out the Apple family. They came in with 0 product, and 0 means to make the product, but the machine. That is like.... hm... Going to a factory and demanding that they give you the parts to make YOUR device, using their parts in mass, and only getting 25% of the profits. They would laugh at your face. That is not how it works. Business agreements are mutually beneficial. The Flim Flam brothers were anything but in their dealings.

Had the brothers brought fresh apples with them and started producing their own on their own power it would have been different. Or had they PURCHASED the apples or input some MONETARY BACKING to the farm(You know, "invested" as you put it), there again, would have been no issue. 25% wouldn't have even covered the overhead of the upkeep of the land used to produce the apples used. Clearly from Applebuck season, we know they don't have the funds to even buy a new plow. So why would you think that 25% would cover any overhead past Cider season, which is the goal.

Edit: Also, you forget about overproduction. The machine produces too much, can't sell. Cider has no preservatives, they have no storing potential. Less than a week, all that product goes to waste and the APPLE family takes the hit monetarily, not the Flim Flam brothers. 25% would not be able to cover loss of product which they would then be unable to use for other salable products. And again, it is the Apple family who has the loss of net gain. The Flim Flam brothers would have no problems. For the Apple Family it is better to make LESS of the product and sell 100% than to make more of the product and sell 80% of it.

Edit2: Sorry for kinda flying off the handle... But seriously. I don't follow how you see the Apple family being in the wrong in any way.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Here you have a family owned business that refuses to let in outside investors

I recommend going back and watching the episode again. Especially the part right after the song and dance routine is over. They very first line is Applebloom saying "You got a deal!"

In spite of Granny Smith's objections, Applejack remains uncertain, but she seriously considers their offer (asking them for more information rather than flat out refusing) until she realizes that it is a bad deal and they'd lose the farm.

The Flim Flam brothers had a classic "get rich quick" scheme. They had no means of providing a supply of raw materials (moving from town to town without investing in any infrastructure) and using fast talk to get others to invest in them instead.

The sad fact is that placebo justifications really do work on people. In a classic study, people went and asked to cut in line at the copying machine. The first group said "May I cut in line," with no explanation, the second group said "May I cut in line, I need to make some copies." Even though the second group didn't say anything useful in their reasoning (of course you need to make copies if you're trying to use a copying machine!) they witnessed a significant increase in the number of people who let them cut in line.

Like the part where one of the Flim Flam brothers says "We'll even throw in this [necessary thing for the deal to work in the first place] for free!"

So I guess in this case, it depends on who's assertions you decide to take at face value. The Element of Honesty, or the Flim Flam brothers.

Real con artists are good at what they do and good at making themselves appear to be reasonable and honest. You've got to recognize what they're up to in spite of that. They roll into town and put on a big production that revolves around a couple of truths.

• True, there's a cider shortage.

• True, their machine is fantastic and amazing.

They use those truths to try to establish confidence and trust so that when they try to pull a fast one (and they do) people will still think they're on the level.

Now that I think about it, since they couldn't even tell the difference between the good cider and the bad cider they produced, I wonder if they even built the machine themselves. I would think an automatic quality checking device would require some knowledge of quality in the first place to design. Perhaps they just stuck their name on it in the same way they tried to rename Sweet Apple Acres into Flim Flam Fields.