Flim Flam question?

[a23223]

Ok, the Brothers can make about 3 times the amount of Cider the Apple family can. The original offer is a profit split of 75/25. That menas they get 25% of the profits. Now, If the Brothers make three times as much cider as the family does, that means 25% *3 = 75%. That means a net loss of 25%. Applejack says that they would lose the farm if they accepted. Plus they got the farm for free form Princess Celestia, so there's no morgage, AND her best friend Twilight has connections with the princess. Don't you think she could get a loan if she REALLY needed it. Also, They would only have to talk it up to 66/33 to loose practically none. And lastly, even if they couldn't, they only have to supply the apples, Which the machine natrually harvests. So that means they could spend the time they normally use making cider for other productive activitys for the farm. So, Why did Applejack say that they would lose the farm?

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

This argument makes some assumptions about the economics of Equestria that I'm not sure we can safely make.

• We don't know what the Equestrian land use policy is, and whether or not there is a mortgage in the strictest sense, its not hard to think of expenses that the apple family would be obliged to pay.

• Twilight is the Princess's pupil, she's not really in a position to make policy decisions on their behalf. This is Friendship is Magic, not Exploiting your Relationships is Magic.

• For all we know, the Apple Family is already deeply in debt and cannot take on additional loans. Finances for the farm have been a recurring issue for Applejack ever since "Ticket Master," when Applejack wants to go to the gala to drum up business for the farm. Replacing the barn was going to require a significant investment, but before the gala even took place, the barn was destroyed and replaced. Furthermore, getting a loan responsibly requires some assurance that you will be able to pay it off, you cant do that if you're perpetually operating at a loss.

• Growing Apples is a yearlong task while Cider Season is a very short period of time. This is roughly analogous to the Christmas season in the US, where many businesses operate in the red all year long until "Black Friday," named because it is when many businesses start operating in the black. The Flim Flam brother's machine may harvest the apples itself, but it is hard work and Earth Pony magic that is responsible for growing them.

• The extra apples that the Flim Flam brothers turn into cider cannot be used or sold by the apple family in other forms. They say that Cider Season gets them through the winter, but they still need to get through the spring, summer and fall as well. That would be more difficult to do if all their apples are used up getting through the winter.

• Last but most certainly not least: When Big Macintosh rejects their first offer, they make it totally clear that they were happy he rejected the deal. They knew it was a bad deal but were trying to keep up appearances for the crowd. Negotiating a fair deal was not on their agenda, running the Apples out of town was.

This is the nature of the con artist. They make arguments that sound sincere and are anything but.

[a23223]

Ok, on the loan front, THey kind of saved all of Equestria Three times at least. Is it that much for Applejack to ask for some money so her family can make a decent living?

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

You might think that saving Equestria would entitle you to vast hoards of wealth, but it would seem that is not the case in the world of ponies. Each of the mane six go on about their daily lives as if nothing had happened, and their heroics are scarcely given a second thought.

We can only speculate as to why this might be the case, whether it is a fiat of the writers to keep the story arcs separate, or if service to Princess and Country is expected by default and not considered extraordinary, we may never know. The world was saved four times in two seasons, perhaps it is such a regular occurrence that its just considered normal.

[a23223]

Also, I find it kind of hillarious, and strange that Rainbow Dash hasn't had a drink oh Apple family Cider for years. You'd think Applejack could set aside some for her.

[SonicRainb00m]

Also, I find it kind of hillarious, and strange that Rainbow Dash hasn't had a drink oh Apple family Cider for years. You'd think Applejack could set aside some for her.

Yeah, that is kind of funny... but assuming that the Apple Family is in debt, they need to sell as much cider as they can. But not having the cider for years makes tasting it finally even more good.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

Ok, on the loan front, THey kind of saved all of Equestria Three times at least. Is it that much for Applejack to ask for some money so her family can make a decent living?

I think the best example of what Ginger Mint said is the episode Sweet and Elite. Rarity doesn't want her friends coming to her friend's fancy party because they are from Ponyville. If they were recognized as heroes of Equestria, I doubt it would matter where they lived or what their everyday jobs were.

To counter your original points, have you seen War Horse? Perhaps the Apple family is in a similar situation. They live season to season, harvesting apples and making just enough to get by. Any extra is stored up for big things, such as a new barn or Granny Smith's hip. If disaster strikes and they lose a crop, that's pretty much it. In War Horse (if you haven't seen it), they had one chance to grow a crop. Everything was fine, turnips were growing... big rainstorm wiped everything out, and they couldn't pay for the farm that month. They would get evicted and have nowhere to go.

Now the Apples probably have some relatives that they could move in with, but Sweet Apple Acres is their family home. Granny Smith started it with her family, Applejack's parents were born there, and Applejack and her siblings were born there. It's not just about harvesting Apples, it's about being home.

Plus, there's the matter of pride. I'd bet Applejack and her family would rather lose the farm then ask for a loan or for help. Case in point: Applebuck Season. Applejack was full of pride in herself, her family, and he abilities. Types like AJ believe in hard work, and can see asking for help as a sign of weakness. Even if it meant losing the farm, I don't think the Apple family would take what they might consider a hand out. They've all worked for that farm, and if they lose it, they see it as nopony's fault but their own (which, in the case of Flim and Flam, would have been). Even if it's just a bad season of crops, they should be able to get by. It's the Apple way.

[Rosewind]

It could also be that the writing is presumptuous in order to sell its story to the watcher. We just accept that facts can vary by episode with no real continuity for the sake of having a plot to follow.

[SonicRainb00m]

I think the best example of what Ginger Mint said is the episode Sweet and Elite. Rarity doesn't want her friends coming to her friend's fancy party because they are from Ponyville. If they were recognized as heroes of Equestria, I doubt it would matter where they lived or what their everyday jobs were.

To counter your original points, have you seen War Horse? Perhaps the Apple family is in a similar situation. They live season to season, harvesting apples and making just enough to get by. Any extra is stored up for big things, such as a new barn or Granny Smith's hip. If disaster strikes and they lose a crop, that's pretty much it. In War Horse (if you haven't seen it), they had one chance to grow a crop. Everything was fine, turnips were growing... big rainstorm wiped everything out, and they couldn't pay for the farm that month. They would get evicted and have nowhere to go.

Now the Apples probably have some relatives that they could move in with, but Sweet Apple Acres is their family home. Granny Smith started it with her family, Applejack's parents were born there, and Applejack and her siblings were born there. It's not just about harvesting Apples, it's about being home.

Plus, there's the matter of pride. I'd bet Applejack and her family would rather lose the farm then ask for a loan or for help. Case in point: Applebuck Season. Applejack was full of pride in herself, her family, and he abilities. Types like AJ believe in hard work, and can see asking for help as a sign of weakness. Even if it meant losing the farm, I don't think the Apple family would take what they might consider a hand out. They've all worked for that farm, and if they lose it, they see it as nopony's fault but their own (which, in the case of Flim and Flam, would have been). Even if it's just a bad season of crops, they should be able to get by. It's the Apple way.

Well said, well said.

[starswirlthebearded]

There are actually many incongruities with the Apple family finances. Let us assume that they make enough to last through to the next cider season barely. Why then would AJ offer to use what ever prize money she may win at the national rodeo to help the town, which, in all likelihood, would be fine anyway? Wouldn't be better to invest that money if it were the case? It doesn't make sense.

There is also zap apple jam season. Assuming the two are separate, that means they have two different seasons where they make gross profits. Not only that, but, unlike Cider season which seems to be completely Apple family run, it was made clear they have business partners for zap apple jam. Which means they have opportunity for capital to be invested in their farm. They made it clear that Filthy Rich makes a fair amount of money from the sales of zap apple jam, which means that it would be in his best interest to protect the Apple family assets.

As for saving Equestria, they were recognized each time they did it. I don't think it would move past that. I see it as being Knighted in England. Great ceremony, some respect, but not much else. It is not like there is any monetary benefit or anything, its all status. And likely outside Canterlot, that title means less than nothing. Heck, there isn't even a title if we take into account how the royal guard treats the other Mane 6. They seem to know Twilight, but none of the others. And that is only because Twilight is the Princess's pupil and the Captain's sister (perhaps). Even the lower ranked guards don't seem to know Twilight, as when she approached her brother they didn't know whom she was and pointed arms at her.

There is a lot of great continuity in MLP, but some things seem to be done for the sake of story. While it is true that most farms operate in the red, I feel like the finances of the ponies is secondary to be used for the sake of the plot at hand.

And lets face it... Technically speaking, Twilight would be poorest pony. I can only assume she gets a stipend from the princess as her student for food and studying expenses. Twilight is 100% a student, and is living in a library that we can assume is owned and operated by Canterlot, as the princess placed her in the library while she was staying in Ponyville. She doesn't work other than random odd jobs the princess gives her, and she even stated that is merely her royal duty as the princess's pupil. Every other pony seems to have a job... Rarity and AJ are business owners, Pinkie Pie is an apprentice and employee to the Cakes, RD is head of the weather in Ponyville, and FS is the animal keeper (possibly a job given by the town as animals within Equestria don't care for themselves), and seeming pet extraordinaire (doing anything from grooming to giving advice on how to care, and possibly taking care of pets while the owners are not able to).

[SonicRainb00m]

It could also be that the writing is presumptuous in order to sell its story to the watcher. We just accept that facts can vary by episode with no real continuity for the sake of having a plot to follow.

Yeah, that happens a lot in TV shows. "Something/someone/some property is threatened by an outside party and we must resist while staying true to ourselves" Pretty common.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with having episodic stories. They usually don't change things around so drastically that its impossible to suspend disbelief. Everyone has good times and bad times, and we don't know what happens in-between episodes, or if they're even taking place in linear order. I'm sure they could have spent five minutes explaining why the stuff from other episodes doesn't conflict with the situation at hand, but then they wouldn't have been able to have an awesome song and dance routine.

[SonicRainb00m]

hi hi

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with having episodic stories. They usually don't change things around so drastically that its impossible to suspend disbelief. Everyone has good times and bad times, and we don't know what happens in-between episodes, or if they're even taking place in linear order. I'm sure they could have spent five minutes explaining why the stuff from other episodes doesn't conflict with the situation at hand, but then they wouldn't have been able to have an awesome song and dance routine.

Agreed. Who would want to hear about connecting ALL the dots together anyway? I want to see more songs, more ponies, more laughter, and more everything.

[Ashton]

Agreed. Who would want to hear about connecting ALL the dots together anyway?

*raises paw*

I for one would LOVE to see some novels/movies/official comics/whatnot that explain all the in-between info and created a truely linear story out of the episodes

Or we could just go with the MST3K Mantra:

"Repeat to yourself 'it's just a show I should really just relax'"

[SonicRainb00m]

*raises paw*

I for one would LOVE to see some novels/movies/official comics/whatnot that explain all the in-between info and created a truely linear story out of the episodes

Or we could just go with the MST3K Mantra:

"Repeat to yourself 'it's just a show I should really just relax'"

Well yeah, that would be pretty cool. Oh, and I think I've just found somepony else besides my family who watches MST3K...

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I like explanations just so long as they are not so definitive that there isn't any room for further exploration. You've got to have loose ends otherwise the story grinds to a halt.

Have you ever watched a movie or television show where they start off with some vast mystery that is all very interesting and engaging, and you follow the character through their adventures all the while wondering what the secret really is, then they reveal the truth and its just a huge letdown? I think sometimes the stuff that is left out is just as important as the stuff thats explained. Its the imagination of the audience that can really make things come to life, and if you go through as story treating it like a history textbook, there won't be much room for imagination.

Its the kind of thing that so often ruins prequels. They spend so much time trying to set up the stuff that happens later that they forget to have a story of their own.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a long form story arc in the Friendship is Magic universe, but I'd be a bit nervous if they were trying to explain everything.

[Ashton]

@ SonicrainbOOM:

You need to read "The Best Most Awesome Radical Character EVER!" I think you'd like the ending

@ Ginger:

It's VERY hard to find a good balance. Example: LOST. Started out great, but by the 5th(?) season I completely lost interest in it and never finished it...

[SonicRainb00m]

@Ashton: Wow! Thanks for the recommendation! That was a great story, a perfect merging of two great tv shows. Thanks again!

[a23223]

This is where I got the question, it's kind of hillarious.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Ok, wow... that guy in the video doesn't really know much about agriculture. In the industrialized world, most farms have to carry insurance against crop loss in order to avoid going under.

According to a report by Carolina Farm Credit, speculation was one of the top reasons for farm failure during the 1980s.

"Too many people have gone into business or expanded without adequate planning, without adequately analyzing the added costs associated with the added returns, or without analyzing potential risks...Many agricultural commodities have a very inelastic demand and the response of market prices to rapid increases in production often have been dramatic. Demand is said to be inelastic when commodity prices decrease proportionately more than aggregate production increases, which results in a decrease in total revenue."

A sort of "tunnel vision" towards production technology is also a primary cause of farm collapse.

Many of the producers who have failed or are in trouble have been considered by the farming community to be top farmers. This is largely because the general definition of a top farmer is tied almost entirely to his production ability, but attaining the highest yields does not necessarily result in the highest profits. Many top producers have neglected or not understood the financial and marketing aspects of management. More emphasis needs to be placed on marginal cost and return relationships in determining input levels.

Premises in that video that should not be assumed:

• x3 the cider is guaranteed to be sold.

• the other 75% of the apples cannot be used for anything else.

• The farm was given to them by Princess Celestia without any strings attached.

• Equestria is a capitalist economy.

We can't really say for certain that the economy in Equestria is a capitalism. It is entirely possible that the land technically remains under the control of the Princess, much like how in feudal times, farmers didn't own the land they farmed on.

"The only situation I can think of where a farm would go immediately insolvent due to a short lack of funds is if they were mortgaged up to their eyeballs." - The original 75/25 deal was a long term deal. If you are losing money, its only a matter of time before you go insolvent. Applejack didn't say "we'll lose the farm tomorrow," she just said that they'd lose it.

As for the Flim Flam brothers leaving town, even if they had some good barrels left over from the beginning of the challenge, their brand reputation was shot to pieces before they realized their mistake. Brand reputation matters, a lot. Most businesses, especially start-ups don't get a second chance when they serve someone a bad product the first time.

"...And you guys learn not to fear technology." I suspect thats why he's not bothering to look past the surface to find answers to his simple questions. Its more of an ideological thing. He is mad because he thinks the episode portrayed technology in a bad light, even though it was completely agnostic on that topic.

The episode goes out of its way to avoid saying for certain whether or not the machine was capable of producing good cider, and so his entire tirade about technology vs tradition falls flat on its face. Granny Smith's vague expression on tasting the Cider is our only clue, but it is purposefully vague. (Remember that whole thing I said about what you leave out being as important as what you put into a story?) The moral of the story revolves around social interactions, with technology being a good way to make the Flim Flam brother's threat plausible, but not having any bearing on the morality one way or the other. The message of the story is about competition.

The episode demonstrates how you can work together and compete at the same time. How competition can be done wrong and how it can be done right depending on the circumstances. Good, useful competition is about pushing yourself to be better, not about crushing your opponent into oblivion, which is just plain destructive.

[a23223]

I think it could be argued pretty strongly that by Granny's expression, It was very good Cider, because she looked scared fter drinking it. The only other reason I would be able to fathom her being scared would be because she's afraid for her health, but if that were that case, she could get them out of town. There must be some department of health in Equestria, right? I think that it is a capitalist economy, because there are public buissness's that can sell pretty much what they want.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

You could definitely make the argument that Granny's expression meant it was good cider, and thats how I chose to interpret it myself, but it was never explicitly stated.

Plus, the fact that it was implied to be good cider flies in the face of what's-his-name's argument that the episode was anti-technology. Because if the machine did in fact make good cider, the Flim Flam brothers lost out in spite of their superior technology, because their actions were bad enough to make up the difference.

If you'll allow me to make a counterpoint, Mercantilism had public businesses that could sell things, and in Geonomic systems people can sell the things they make even if they don't personally own land, so I would hesitate to say that it has to be a Capitalist system.

[a23223]

Fair, but if I'm not mistaken, Mercantalism is a system in which a country uses goods from a colony and sells them, or something to that effect. At any rate, it would mean Colonys are involved. I would personally think that Equestria, founded on love and goodness, would not seek to expand their land through colonys, since people in colonys usually have less rights than the people part of the country. Do you think they would have a system like that in Equestria? I'm afraid I know none of Geonomic systems, could you explain what they are?

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

My point was that we don't really have any way of knowing what kind of economic system they have in Equestria. The possibilities are as numerous as the stars in the sky, and for all we know, they're using a system that no human has ever considered. At the very least, the presence of trade using currency does not mean it has to be capitalism. Capitalism is a rather new economic system, and money and private businesses have been around for a long time.

In the strictest sense, mercantilism doesn't require colonies, it involves government control over land use and trade policy to establish a positive balance. Perpetual growth is a sticky subject for Capitalism as well, since some economists argue that the need for perpetual growth unsustainable in a world with finite resources and is a major cause of instability and exploitation today.

Geonomics was an economic system that got a little bit of traction in the 1800s and was based on the premise that private ownership of natural resources, namely land, should belong equally to all and be leased out to individuals using a land value tax. I don't think we know enough about Equestria to say one way or another, but it could explain the Apple Family's need to turn a profit and the way the Princess can assign parcels of land to ponies.

Personally, I think its best that they leave it abstract and not fully explained. (For one thing, it allows us to have these kinds of discussions. ) but if someone doesn't want to accept the stated premise "we'd lose the farm," thats a choice, not a mathematic fact.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

According to a report by Carolina Farm Credit, speculation was one of the top reasons for farm failure during the 1980s.

tl;dr If you make more of something, there will be more to go around, and demand will go down. This means that you will have to drop prices in order to sell the product. Make enough, and everyone will be satisfied. If everyone has all they need, why buy more? There's no competition to buy if they're able to make enough cider for everypony.

Plus, they need apples for making other things to sell. If they put all their apples into cider, what are they going to do for the other seasons? Will everypony be happy with just getting apple family cider once a year? Don't they want baked good or applesauce and the like? Using all the apples on one product for one season would be unwise. There is a plan to what the Apple family does.

So selling more cider does not necessarily equal more profit. Even if they did the 33% split as pointed out in the video, they might actually make less money and not break even to their previous profit. It's about supply and demand.