New Lunar Republic? Solar Empire?

[TemplarFrost]

Guys I'm sorry. Celestia is an evil scumbag tyrant.

PROOF OF HER TYRANNY

She must be stopped.

EDIT* Wut? Nobody gets reference? 3 IRL tyrant flags ponified?

[starswirlthebearded]

Bronies and pegasisters! I...I have had a revelation...

The question isn't who is the right ruler, my friends. The question...is who can defend Equestria better. Need I remind you that we have enemies that span beyond borders and worlds?! I'm afraid we have a terrible enemy on it's way...one that will tear down our walls and destroy us!

Beware, foals of Equestria! The Crystal (Dragoran) Empire is coming! Weep, and despair...! The Truest of Empires is near, and their Ever Victorious Army will arrive with the screams of dying pegasi! Flee...! FLEE!

Celestia already failed once against Queen Chrysalis, can we really trust her not to fail again?!

PRINCESS LUNA NEVER LOST A BATTLE! And when she became NMM it took the ELEMENTS OF HARMONY to bring her down! She is the only one that can truly protect Equestria!

[TemplarFrost]

Celestia already failed once against Queen Chrysalis, can we really trust her not to fail again?!

PRINCESS LUNA NEVER LOST A BATTLE! And when she became NMM it took the ELEMENTS OF HARMONY to bring her down! She is the only one that can truly protect Equestria!

Wrong, Luna was banished to the moon, remember? And Celestia chose not to fight NMM. Why fight a problem when it could be resolved peacefully? And plus, Chrysalis was fueled by the love from Shining Armor. Love is a very powerful thing.

[starswirlthebearded]

Wrong, Luna was banished to the moon, remember? And Celestia chose not to fight NMM. Why fight a problem when it could be resolved peacefully? And plus, Chrysalis was fueled by the love from Shining Armor. Love is a very powerful thing.

She was banished to the moon after she was "defeated" by her sister. Defeat implies contest or battle. The story was told as thus "using the magic of Elements of Harmony she defeated her younger sister, and banished her permanently to the moon." Whether it was physical confrontation or magical, there was some conflict between the sisters that Celestia could not overcome. So she had to turn to the EoH, even though she didn't want to. It is fair to assume at the very least, Celestia tried to force the change using her own magic, but couldn't usurp Luna/NMM's control over the moon and ability to keep the Sun down. Celestia used her means of last resort. We know this because she harnessed its magic "reluctantly." Like in any conflict, you don't use the most powerful weapon first, you use only what is necessary. She definitely tried reasoning, then it is likely that she tried to over power her sister, finally she resorted to the EoH.

She probably didn't even WANT to use the EoH, because she likely knew that Luna (her sister) would be affected negatively by its usage (Remember, she knew what they did to Discord). She didn't want to do that to her sister. So if she could have defeated her another way she would have.

Edit: also, remember... Against NMM, the EoH were used in battle (just one that Twilight couldn't win so she used trickery and cleverness). She didn't resist because she thought they were nullified (by destruction) and was confused when they reactivated because of the Mane 6. Discord, on the other hand, was too cocky thinking he neutralized them by "discording" the mane 6. He was confident that they would fail, thus he didn't resist. Had he known it would have been a bit more conflict than what it was.

[TemplarFrost]

She was banished to the moon after she was "defeated" by her sister. Defeat implies contest or battle. The story was told as thus "using the magic of Elements of Harmony she defeated her younger sister, and banished her permanently to the moon." Whether it was physical confrontation or magical, there was some conflict between the sisters that Celestia could not overcome. So she had to turn to the EoH, even though she didn't want to. It is fair to assume at the very least, Celestia tried to force the change using her own magic, but couldn't usurp Luna/NMM's control over the moon and ability to keep the Sun down. Celestia used her means of last resort. We know this because she harnessed its magic "reluctantly." Like in any conflict, you don't use the most powerful weapon first, you use only what is necessary. She definitely tried reasoning, then it is likely that she tried to over power her sister, finally she resorted to the EoH.

She probably didn't even WANT to use the EoH, because she likely knew that Luna (her sister) would be affected negatively by its usage (Remember, she knew what they did to Discord). She didn't want to do that to her sister. So if she could have defeated her another way she would have.

Edit: also, remember... Against NMM, the EoH were used in battle (just one that Twilight couldn't win so she used trickery and cleverness). She didn't resist because she thought they were nullified (by destruction) and was confused when they reactivated because of the Mane 6. Discord, on the other hand, was too cocky thinking he neutralized them by "discording" the mane 6. He was confident that they would fail, thus he didn't resist. Had he known it would have been a bit more conflict than what it was.

wut

No, first of all, you said that NMM "NEVER LOST A BATTLE" in caps, but she lost twice, regardless of EoH.

Second of all, both conflicts were at night, were they not? Night isn't Celestia's forte. But if they fought in the day, It would had have a completely different outcome.

Third of all, scientifically speaking, the Sun is much more significant than the moon, and plus, Celestia is Luna's older sister.

Fourth of all, even if you are right, you were speaking like "who ever is more powerful is fit to rule Equestria." That is not necessarily true. Celestia has more experience of being a ruler, than Luna. After all, she did lead Equestria from the clutches of Discord. Even before the first conflict, Celestia watches over Equestria during the day. At daytime, Equestria is more active and more problems occur. At nighttime, what does Luna watch over? People sleep. The show itself even states that. And after the first conflict, Luna was banished for 1000 years. That's a long time to be absent. Things change. And when Luna returned to Equestria, you could clearly see that she had trouble getting used to the new customs. Therefore, Celestia is a better ruler than Luna. And she is fit to rule Equestria.

[starswirlthebearded]

Incorrect, I said Luna never lost a battle. NMM on the other hand lost twice to the EoH.

And if Celestia could control both, I see no reason why Luna couldn't do the same, regardless of what is more important.

And experience doesn't mean squat to being a good ruler. Most dictators are horrible despite leading for their entire lives.

And at this point it seems as though Luna is fully used to the new world. She still talks more proper than her sister, but that shouldn't be faulted.

Also, we don't know if Celestia's powers are bound to the sun, so that is unfair to cite as a factor. Nor Luna's for that matter.

Edit: as for post discord, they were ruling together. They had harnessed the elements together and were ruling together, until Luna turned into NMM.

And there is no evidence to suggest that night is peaceful. Only ponies were started to sleep though the night, but we know there are far more creatures in Equestria.

[FermataTheBasse]

Love is a very powerful thing, eh? Heck, Cadence for Princess bois!

[Valencetiger]

Incoming! Incoming! A mind-nuke has arrived! IT'S OVER!

The United States of Derpica

Ruled by President Derpy Hooves.

[TemplarFrost]

Incorrect, I said Luna never lost a battle. NMM on the other hand lost twice to the EoH.

And if Celestia could control both, I see no reason why Luna couldn't do the same, regardless of what is more important.

And experience doesn't mean squat to being a good ruler. Most dictators are horrible despite leading for their entire lives.

And at this point it seems as though Luna is fully used to the new world. She still talks more proper than her sister, but that shouldn't be faulted.

Also, we don't know if Celestia's powers are bound to the sun, so that is unfair to cite as a factor. Nor Luna's for that matter.

Edit: as for post discord, they were ruling together. They had harnessed the elements together and were ruling together, until Luna turned into NMM.

And there is no evidence to suggest that night is peaceful. Only ponies were started to sleep though the night, but we know there are far more creatures in Equestria.

1. NMM and Princess Luna are one and the same.

2. False, I know where you're coming from, but bad leaders do not know experience. There is a difference between actual experience, and just being there for a long time. If you have experience in something, then it means that you're good at it.

3. Her speech is fine, okay. But she has been gone for 1000 years. That means that Celestia is more up-to-date on Equestria, 1000 years more than Luna.

4. You're right, we don't, but it's just a thought.

5. It actually says in the first few mins. of the show that she was dissatisfied by the inactivity of nighttime Equestria. Why do you think she went rouge, and put Equestria in everlasting night in the first place?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPN5yZ5bpF8

Skip to 0:32

I mean, clearly she was dissatisfied by ruling over just creatures.

[starswirlthebearded]

1. NMM and Princess Luna are one and the same.

2. False, I know where you're coming from, but bad leaders do not know experience. There is a difference between actual experience, and just being there for a long time. If you have experience in something, then it means that you're good at it.

3. Her speech is fine, okay. But she has been gone for 1000 years. That means that Celestia is more up-to-date on Equestria, 1000 years more than Luna.

4. You're right, we don't, but it's just a thought.

5. It actually says in the first few mins. of the show that she was dissatisfied by the inactivity of nighttime Equestria. Why do you think she went rouge, and put Equestria in everlasting night in the first place?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPN5yZ5bpF8

Skip to 0:32

I mean, clearly she was dissatisfied by ruling over just creatures.

Not really, that is like saying Bruce banner and the hulk are the same. They share the same body and mind but personality and abilities are completely different. That is why they are two different ponies. They are independent of each other. I don't think the elements of harmony would have any effect on Luna. Think of it that way.

Bad leaders still know experience. It's a matter of what it seems. Oppressed people may seem happy but still be oppressed. It is all a market of if you are seeing the truth or not. However,I just said that for arguments sake, and it doesn't actually appear to be so, but is still in the realm of possibility.

History can be learned, it wouldn't impede ability to rule. She was probably tutored by Celestia herself in the happenings of the last 1000 years so that she could co-rule effectively.

The first few minutes specify pony if I recall correctly. The pony folk "shunned her beautiful night." It had to do with ruling over pony folk and then enjoying her rule and the night that she brought. It had nothing to do with lack of work to be done or absence of danger, which there was probably plenty of both. Which was the point that you originally made, that there was more danger during the day as opposed to night, but seeing as there are nocturnal creatures which could do harm, it makes that point irrelevant. There might actually have been more danger to defend against because many predators attack at night due to vulnerability.

Oh yeah, that last point is why it would be a republic rather than an empire. She would be the overseer and the pony folk would technically rule themselves in a republic your of government. It makes sense.

[TemplarFrost]

Not really, that is like saying Bruce banner and the hulk are the same. They share the same body and mind but personality and abilities are completely different. That is why they are two different ponies. They are independent of each other. I don't think the elements of harmony would have any effect on Luna. Think of it that way.

AHA! You just proved my ultimate point.

What is this argument about? Luna vs Celestia, right? But you just stated that Luna and NMM is not the same.

Now tell me this, you are right that Luna has never been defeated, at least not as NMM. But have Luna and Celestia ever fought? Ever?

Nope. Not as her own, plain, self. Just as NMM.

But you said NMM isn't Luna, so NMM is irrelevant in the conversation.

[Ciraxis]

Moon Shine Down! Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone! The smallest seed of regret can bloom into redemption but most seems to forget that. Who is more fitting to rule if not the one who made the mistake, and by that can see one from far?

Should I serve the Tyrant, whose rule squishes any individuality and freedom?! Nay, I gave my sword to tranquil glow of the Moon! What if Celestai would gone rogue?! No one would suspect her and no one would be capable of stoping her cose of this!

For the New Lunar Republic!

[TemplarFrost]

Moon Shine Down! Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone! The smallest seed of regret can bloom into redemption but most seems to forget that. Who is more fitting to rule if not the one who made the mistake, and by that can see one from far?

Should I serve the Tyrant, whose rule squishes any individuality and freedom?! Nay, I gave my sword to tranquil glow of the Moon! What if Celestai would gone rogue?! No one would suspect her and no one would be capable of stoping her cose of this!

For the New Lunar Republic!

Two arguments at once?

Anyways, Luna went Tyrant much earlier than Celestia. NMM remember? Why did she go Tyrant?

She felt like she didn't have enough power.

The NLR is a lie, it's not a freedom force, it's a group of lost ponies, who are brainwashed by propaganda. The NLR is just a ploy to get ponies riled up to overthrow their savior, simply because Princess Luna want's to be in control. She did it once, and she's doing it again, but in a more approachable manner.

The citizens of Equestria has gotten too comfortable, and outright spoiled. And when Celestia gets just a tad harsher, Luna saw it as a chance to rally the ponies, and retake Equestria. Just so she could rule again.

Sure, overthrow Celestia if you must, Just have fun never seeing daylight again.

[Chocoswirl]

The moon is made of cheese. Therefore, your argument is invalid! Have a nice night.

[TemplarFrost]

The moon is made of cheese. Therefore, your argument is invalid! Have a nice night.

Dayum, well, there goes my argument.

Anyways, pass the crackers will ya?

[starswirlthebearded]

AHA! You just proved my ultimate point.

What is this argument about? Luna vs Celestia, right? But you just stated that Luna and NMM is not the same.

Now tell me this, you are right that Luna has never been defeated, at least not as NMM. But have Luna and Celestia ever fought? Ever?

Nope. Not as her own, plain, self. Just as NMM.

But you said NMM isn't Luna, so NMM is irrelevant in the conversation.

We don't know if Celestia ever fought Luna. We know she tried to reason with her as Luna but was unsuccessful. We don't know if any battles over magical prowess occurred before Luna became nmm.

[TemplarFrost]

We don't know if Celestia ever fought Luna. We know she tried to reason with her as Luna but was unsuccessful. We don't know if any battles over magical prowess occurred before Luna became nmm.

Exactly, that means that there was never we've never seen a fight between Luna and Celestia. Therefore, no proof that one is more powerful than the other.

Now be quite, i'm trying to enjoy my cheese.

[starswirlthebearded]

Exactly, that means that there was never we've never seen a fight between Luna and Celestia. Therefore, no proof that one is more powerful than the other.

Now be quite, i'm trying to enjoy my cheese.

Quite quiet

Know what the funniest part of that debate was? I took none of it serious and it was started from a facetious statement... I thought the caps would have given that away

[Valencetiger]

5. It actually says in the first few mins. of the show that she was dissatisfied by the inactivity of nighttime Equestria. Why do you think she went rouge, and put Equestria in everlasting night in the first place?

Dear, dear Templar. Have you read the "Night Eternal" fan-fiction? It clearly explains what the original conflict between the two sisters was about. It wasn't about Luna not having the spotlight. Why, she actually held most of it anyway. She and her sister fought because Celestia was a tyrant...and we all know one famous quote that explains the first episodes history:

"History is determined by the victor".

[TemplarFrost]

Dear, dear Templar. Have you read the "Night Eternal" fan-fiction? It clearly explains what the original conflict between the two sisters was about. It wasn't about Luna not having the spotlight. Why, she actually held most of it anyway. She and her sister fought because Celestia was a tyrant...and we all know one famous quote that explains the first episodes history:

"History is determined by the victor".

Dear, dear Valence, do you know what a fan-fic is? Fan-fiction, that's what it is.

Fan-fiction is not canon silly.

And plus, when Luna came back to Equestria as NMM, she clearly states her evil intent. She went rouge because she was dissatisfied from ruling just in the night.

[starswirlthebearded]

Dear, dear Valence, do you know what a fan-fic is? Fan-fiction, that's what it is.

Fan-fiction is not canon silly.

And plus, when Luna came back to Equestria as NMM, she clearly states her evil intent. She went rouge because she was dissatisfied from ruling just in the night.

You'd be vengeful too if you were wrongfully imprisoned in the moon for 1000 years without trial or chance for parole!

[Valencetiger]

Dear, dear Valence, do you know what a fan-fic is? Fan-fiction, that's what it is.

Fan-fiction is not canon silly.

And plus, when Luna came back to Equestria as NMM, she clearly states her evil intent. She went rouge because she was dissatisfied from ruling just in the night.

Doesn't mean it isn't true...nothing has been proven to say otherwise. Fans have been right quite often. Who knows what Celestia would say in order to keep her "perfect image"? A shame, is what it is, that ponies believe everything they are told right off the bat...

[Shadowrunner]

For the lunar republic!

[TemplarFrost]

Doesn't mean it isn't true...nothing has been proven to say otherwise. Fans have been right quite often. Who knows what Celestia would say in order to keep her "perfect image"? A shame, is what it is, that ponies believe everything they are told right off the bat...

Quote on quote...

THE NIGHT WILL LAST...

FOREVER!

MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm only believing what she said.

Luna turned tyrant before Celestia.

[Shadowrunner]

Quote on quote...

THE NIGHT WILL LAST...

FOREVER!

MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm only believing what she said.

Luna turned tyrant before Celestia.

Celestia ruled with no opposition for those 1000 years. Maby she bashed Luna for trying to expose her?