S03 E01-02: "The Crystal Empire"

[Bellosh]

Yeah, King Sombre was a pretty bad guy who was capable of doing all sorts of things to his former subjects. And he was shown in the episode to be able to mess with the emotional and physical state of the Crystal Ponies. Just seeing his dark crystals was enough to turn them dark again. Though the Mane Six were not similarly altered.

The morale of the Mane Six wasn't hanging by a thread like it was for the crystal ponies, who had only just started the process of getting on with their normal lives. Twi & Co. on the other hand weren't about to lose all hope that easily.

[Dessa]

I thought it was a good ep, just poorly paced. There semed to be a lot of streches where very little was happening. This could easily have been one ep with good edits, or the time from 2 eps might have been better spend developing Sombra.

Mind you, I'm not saying sombra needed a bunch of lines, but it would have been nice to get a more direct taste of his power. Maybe the mae 6 could have brought the elements of harmony, only to see them fail. We're told Sombra is powerful, but I'd like to SEE it.

[weesh]

Maybe the mane 6 could have brought the elements of harmony, only to see them fail.

I disagree.

That runs completely counter to what the elements are, what they represent, and the power they are supposed to have. I will be disappointed if properly wielded elements ever fail.

We're told Sombra is powerful, but I'd like to SEE it.

He is powerful to single handedly attack an entire city, strong enough to besiege the minds of a thousand crystal ponies, strong enough to win a battle of wills with Cadence, when he breaks through the effects are dramatic and extremely rapid, and he almost won.

Oh yeah, and he could completely nullify shining armor's magic. I didn't even know that was possible.

Can you explain why more is necessary?

[weesh]

The mind of an engineer:

Reaction to Twilight hover flying: "cool"

Reaction to Twilight reversing gravity: "cool"

Reaction to Twilight spinning wildly around a helix without getting thrown off into space: "Now wait just a second there. Do physics mean nothing to you?"

[starswirlthebearded]

The mind of an engineer:

Reaction to Twilight hover flying: "cool"

Reaction to Twilight reversing gravity: "cool"

Reaction to Twilight spinning wildly around a helix without getting thrown off into space: "Now wait just a second there. Do physics mean nothing to you?"

I have one word for you (despite thinking the exact same)... MAGIC!

[weesh]

I have one word for you (despite thinking the exact same)... MAGIC!

Do ponies learn physics in school? Maybe the unicorns get a wavier?

[Lerian]

The mind of an engineer:

Reaction to Twilight hover flying: "cool"

Reaction to Twilight reversing gravity: "cool"

Reaction to Twilight spinning wildly around a helix without getting thrown off into space: "Now wait just a second there. Do physics mean nothing to you?"

Couple of options:-

Could have shown Twilight leaning into the corner (think motorcyclist)

'Pfft, I control gravity! Who says it has to be straight up or down? I'm being pulled upwards but at an angle towards the centre of the spire (or towards the Crystal Heart itself)'

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Spike's spines are clearly acting as a spoiler, diverting the airflow and pushing her towards the center.

[Bellosh]

Do ponies learn physics in school? Maybe the unicorns get a wavier?

I wouldn't put it past Twilight to have studied physics. She is a confirmed math wiz, after all.

[starswirlthebearded]

I wouldn't put it past Twilight to have studied physics. She is a confirmed math wiz, after all.

She did, remember in its about time? She used the Lorentz equations. She definitely knows physics

[weesh]

Could have shown Twilight leaning into the corner (think motorcyclist)

In that case there is a frictional force directed inwards. She is sliding, and it isn't slowing her down much so there isn't much of a frictional force.

'Pfft, I control gravity! Who says it has to be straight up or down? I'm being pulled upwards but at an angle towards the centre of the spire (or towards the Crystal Heart itself)'

Nice. I approve.

---

I know the Fluttershy costume has already been mentioned...as a tribute to how funny Pinkie is. The part that caused me to laugh out loud was the real Fluttershy's entrance, which led her to standing on top of the costume and getting completely freaked out.

[Lerian]

You know Ginger...it reminds me of one story I heard.

One day, Tex Avery creator of Daffy Duck was at some public meeting (I can't recall what it was about but it matters not). Suddenly one man from the audience asked to have some say. He made complete psychological analysis of Daffy along with listing his mental problems and asked Avery about opinion. To which Tex said "Mister, you propably right. But for me it's just crazy duck."

........Which I think it applies here too.

That may apply to Discord (as a god of chaos) but 'They are just crazy' or 'They are just eeeeevil' is a very poor motivation. It can be used in specific instances and kept rare but, if you're interested, try 'approaching it from the other direction'

Rather than think of the one or two instances where it works think of the criminals, villains and general antagonists where they are given a more complex motivation and imagine that instead it was hand waved as 'they are just mad' or 'well, evil people are like that' or something similar.

I can't comment for others but antagonists having a motivation makes a story, a world or a setting more complete and the more a world is established the more such things have to stay consistent.

In an effort to 'approach it from the other direction' myself.

What would have justified 'he is just evil' to me would be if they hadn't given him the backstory of having once been a mortal unicorn. If he had been introduced as a corrupting influence, a shadow that was trying to enter the world through crystal, a spirit or god of despair it would have personally sat easier. Although we already have Windigo's who freeze ponies and the world by their nature with no other motivation than 'we feed on anger and hatred'.

Heck, "I'm hungry" sits easier than "I'm evil"....

EDIT:- little addition to the stairs conversation... It's a good job Sombra didn't build the outer spire stairs the same way as the inner spire stairs

[Dessa]

I disagree.

That runs completely counter to what the elements are, what they represent, and the power they are supposed to have. I will be disappointed if properly wielded elements ever fail.

He is powerful to single handedly attack an entire city, strong enough to besiege the minds of a thousand crystal ponies, strong enough to win a battle of wills with Cadence, when he breaks through the effects are dramatic and extremely rapid, and he almost won.

Oh yeah, and he could completely nullify shining armor's magic. I didn't even know that was possible.

Can you explain why more is necessary?

Okay, so he beseiges a city. We get to see the sky flash dark a few times.

He depressed ponies. We get to see ponies mope around a little.

Hebattles Cadence 1 on 1. We get to see Cadence's horn shine, and the sky flash a couple times.

He nullifies Shining Armor's magic, but we don't actually see it happen. We get to see a crystallized horn.

These are fine and good, because they build tension. You don't have to constantly see the guy to see his power. But it feels like it's building toward a showdown. Instead, the second we get a good look at the guy, he's vanquished. Everything the heroes had to do was already done, and they did it under the safety of a big glowy bubble.

Even when Twilight faced his enchanment on the door, it was so abrupt that it was immediately apparent it was an illusion. If this was given a couple more minutes (taken away from one of the other filler-ish scenes in these eps), it could have had much more impact than it did.

Every direct sort of encounter with Sombra resolved so quickly, that all of the tension built was kinda wasted.

[MidnightBlackhorn]

It was a good episode IMO

[TheInvisiblePony]

You know, I was re-watching the scene where Sombra gets defeated for the first time, and it doesn't even look like the princesses use the elements of harmony in the first place, which I believe is fairly interesting. Its already been brought up in this thread that 1000 years doesn't mean on the dot, and we absolutely know Celestia and Luna used the elements to beat Discord (heck, that probably goes without saying)

What I'm getting at, is did Celestia and Luna even have the elements when fighting Sombra? If they did, they would have used it, and the cinematic of them defeating the not-so-good-king would have featured the weaponized harmony rainbow, would it not? Honestly, it seems like Celestia isn't really one for taking chances (except when it comes to testing Twilight, it would seem) so I doubt she would have just chosen not to use them, especially after all of the emphasis built around Sombra's evil. So, I reason that he struck before the Elements were found by the princesses, which would technically make him the first villain, chronologically.

I guess that makes Sombra the start of darkness in Equestria. Heck, if that's true, I certainly value him a little more.

[Bellosh]

You know, I was re-watching the scene where Sombra gets defeated for the first time, and it doesn't even look like the princesses use the elements of harmony in the first place, which I believe is fairly interesting.

I wouldn't look too much into that omission; the Elements weren't shown in the flashback simply because the plot didn't require them to be mentioned in this episode.

[elsporko]

I assumed they didn't take the elements since if the elements turned him to shadow using them against the shadow wouldn't be effective.

If Celestia and Luna didn't have the elements it does raise the question as to why they didn't bring them.

[starswirlthebearded]

I assumed they didn't take the elements since if the elements turned him to shadow using them against the shadow wouldn't be effective.

If Celestia and Luna didn't have the elements it does raise the question as to why they didn't bring them.

I assumed it was because the crystal ponies had to save themselves. Using the elements would have circumvented the need for the heart and the crystal ponies would have remained in that state even if sombra was defeated. It was a symbol of hope for them, their version of the elements only more meaningful. Basically I saw the entire thing as a "help them help themselves" sort of thing.

[Lerian]

You know, I was re-watching the scene where Sombra gets defeated for the first time, and it doesn't even look like the princesses use the elements of harmony in the first place, which I believe is fairly interesting. Its already been brought up in this thread that 1000 years doesn't mean on the dot, and we absolutely know Celestia and Luna used the elements to beat Discord (heck, that probably goes without saying)

What I'm getting at, is did Celestia and Luna even have the elements when fighting Sombra? If they did, they would have used it, and the cinematic of them defeating the not-so-good-king would have featured the weaponized harmony rainbow, would it not? Honestly, it seems like Celestia isn't really one for taking chances (except when it comes to testing Twilight, it would seem) so I doubt she would have just chosen not to use them, especially after all of the emphasis built around Sombra's evil. So, I reason that he struck before the Elements were found by the princesses, which would technically make him the first villain, chronologically.

I guess that makes Sombra the start of darkness in Equestria. Heck, if that's true, I certainly value him a little more.

I believed that as Sombra was defeated by a multi-coloured wave, in a scene very similar to Discord and NMM though with different colours, that the elements had been used the first time. Then, as others have pointed out, it would have been worthless to bring them a second time as he was already the shadow that he had been turned into the first time.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Dessa, I think the problems you mentioned with pacing earlier might be in part due to the lack of tension in the episode. The tone of a show is one of the big things that helps set the pacing. When the tone shifts, the audience feels a different mood, and that different mood helps establish a new segment of the narrative. If the tone fails to change the audience's mood, then the intended pacing breaks down.

And it wasn't just Sombre's fault when it comes to tension. I think one of the biggest culprits is actually Celestia. She removes all the tension in the episode at the very beginning when she repeated reassures Luna, Twilight and by extension, the audience, that -in no uncertain terms- Twilight will not fail. You kind of are forced to believe Celestia too, because if you don't believe in her, then you almost have to accept that she is either very evil (Risking the entire world on a hunch, when she could have sent her sister along to help, or even gone herself as well.) or very foolish, and its hard to believe that someone who has peacefully ruled a nation for 1000 years is either of those two things.

Also, in response to starswirlthebearded: That would be a nice thought, but unfortunately, I don't think anyone was trying to get the Crystal Ponies to save themselves. Twilight, Cadence and Shining Armor were supposed to do everything, according to the plan. If they wanted the Crystal Ponies to save themselves, they would have had to actually let them know what was happening at some point and allow them to decide what to do themselves. Instead, they spent most of their time badgering them, deceiving them (people cannot self govern from a position of ignorance), yelling at them (rainbow dash), and ordering the Crystal Ponies to do things.

Even at the end, Cadence had to command them to use their magic to power the Crystal Heart.

But to be fair to the Crystal Ponies, nobody else displays any real agency either, except for Princess Celestia, who makes all the important decisions for everyone in advance, right up until the climax of the story when Twilight finally makes a decision for herself. (Though it later turns out that it was intended all along.)

For me, it was the climax and the ending that really redeemed the rest of the episode. Twilight and Spike's relationship was truly touching, and we got some amazing one liners for the rest of the crew, like Applejack's fanfic fueling "Good things are better when they're a Rarity," line.

Speaking of Applejack, and looking at things from the other direction, I think one of the reasons why I liked her scene where she was keeping folks away from the fake heart so much is because there was personal tension for her. She's an honest mare, and the obvious easy way out would be to simply lie about it, but instead she harnesses her often overlooked herding skills to pull through without having to compromise on her character.

Perhaps if some of the other characters had similar personal quandaries, the scene at the fair would have been more dramatic. For example: we all know Pinkie Pie is capable of acting like a clown, but suppose in an attempt to help the Crystal Ponies save themselves, Pinkie Pie was tasked with explaining to some of them what was actually happening in a way that wouldn't dampen their spirits? Something actually serious. She could use her skills in leading random songs (and making them fit in character) or her friend making skills to get some of the Crystal Ponies to help them run the fair. (instead of having the mane six doing it all by themselves.)

Or perhaps during the Joust, Rainbow Dash agrees in advance to go easy on Fluttershy because she can't go up against real competition, but during the first event she trips on a rock crystal and loses, getting hurt in the process. Suddenly Fluttershy is a star (and really, who doesn't love Fluttershy?), and a bunch of the Crystal Ponies start lining up to compete against her. Unwilling to joust against real competition, the whole event is in danger of falling apart, and Rainbow Dash must find a way to keep it going while not abandoning her friend.

[elsporko]

^ Good ideas but if you went with the personal growth angle at the fair we would have lost Pinkie Pie whining about wanting a flugelhorn

[starswirlthebearded]

Ginger, they were lied to because of the emotional trauma. None of them remembered. They had to find a way for the empire to become self sufficient again. The way to do that was to throw the fair and retrieve the Crystal heart. By them utilizing the Crystal Heart they were effectively helping the crystal ponies restore the peace of their land. Had they used the elements, that would have been unable to occur.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Oh, I agree that they were trying to do things for the Crystal Ponies because they couldn't be expected to do them on their own, on account of their traumatic experiences. But thats just my point, saving someone from themselves and having them save themselves are about as close to mutually exclusive as anything I can think of.

Also, you knew this was coming:

[weesh]

LOL at the video!

Oh, I agree that they were trying to do things for the Crystal Ponies because they couldn't be expected to do them on their own, on account of their traumatic experiences. But thats just my point, saving someone from themselves and having them save themselves are about as close to mutually exclusive as anything I can think of.

There is a difference between urgent and important. It was urgent to save the crystal ponies, while it is important to teach them to save themselves. Once the immediate danger is addressed, you can move onto the important stuff. Although, it is easy to fall into the trap of getting distracted by the urgent things and failing to do any of the important ones. Once the crisis was over, they all left! Are they equipped to solve their own problems now?

[starswirlthebearded]

Wow... so there was about 30 seconds of just the word "crystal" being repeated... (well and one chrystaly) Who knew LOL. (That is a golden find Ginger)