Temperature dilemma in Equestria

[Bright Glow]

I hope this is the right place for this topic, if not than I'm sorry.

We alredy know from the Winter Warp up episode how the ponies in Equestria are controlling the seasons and we also know fro the Look before you sleep episode how they are dealing with the weather but what about the temperature? How they make sure the temperature won't fall under 0 C degree (32F degree) at night in late spring?

This question is actual for me because I heared in the news last weekend in some parts of hungary the temperature fell under 0 Celsius degree (32F) for thre nights in roll and there was a place where it fell down to -8 C degree (17.6F).

[Isoraqathedh]

Temperature is mainly dependent on CO_2, atmospheric pressure and (very short-term) insolation (energy input from the sun.) If you have a really thick atmosphere, then the temperature differential will be much lower. CO_2 levels can help bring the mean temperature up as well, but it too moderates temperatures.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Bodies of water and vapor are also good ways of regulating temperature. Water has a very high specific heat, which essentially means that it can hold a lot of thermal energy, it takes longer to cool, and helps keep its surroundings warm by transferring that heat into them. This is part of why deserts can get so hot during the day but so frigid at night.

If the Pegasai needed to, they could also increase the cloud cover during the night to help trap heat in near the surface.

[flutterscotch]

Magic.

[Kirby Krackle]

hi hi

Bodies of water and vapor are also good ways of regulating temperature. Water has a very high specific heat, which essentially means that it can hold a lot of thermal energy, it takes longer to cool, and helps keep its surroundings warm by transferring that heat into them. This is part of why deserts can get so hot during the day but so frigid at night.

If the Pegasai needed to, they could also increase the cloud cover during the night to help trap heat in near the surface.

Magic.

I love this board so much.

[Hippo]

Temperature is mainly dependent on CO_2, atmospheric pressure and (very short-term) insolation (energy input from the sun.) If you have a really thick atmosphere, then the temperature differential will be much lower. CO_2 levels can help bring the mean temperature up as well, but it too moderates temperatures.

*Pushes glasses up on nose*

very well said.

[Bright Glow]

Well I guess the pegasus weather teams needs the help from the unicorns for the first snow of the year. I mean the pegasus ponies puts together the clouds and the unicors are cooling down them and the air. It could be a hard work to make sure the air won't cool down too soon and it will be snowing and not raining or hailing.

[BlackFang]

Magic.

here, take an internet.

[Catloaf]

Magic.

*SNORT* *SNORT*

[Skye]

Two things,

Actually, I'm going to move this to Questions and Suggestions, I think it particularily fits that particular subforum.

Secondly, these are some very good points! I've often wondered that myself. I'm not exactly sure how the ponies manage to get some things done, such as temperature control, on things that are a more global scale. However, considering Celestia brings up the sun and moon, I bet there actually is a more direct and magical control over it. She likely is not just responsible for bringing the sun up every day, but also makes sure the proper tilt of Equestria and the distance from the sun is maintained. It really was food for thought, that's for sure!

[Autumn]

Magic.

I'd like to happily declare this to be the best answer for your questioning of cartoon science.

[flutterscotch]

<totally off track comment> I would also like to point to Artax's banner, particularly the first image, for a great example of, in fiction, sentient beings being at the same developmental level as humans* but with the limitations of their physiology keeping them from developing, say, swords and computers.

*(as in the species represented has been represented as having full consciousness since humans obtained it, but have developed more slowly due to the lack of opposable digits)

</totally off track comment>

But really, you have pegasai magically able to coalesce water vapor into clouds by flying around in circles really fast, one alicorn controlling the rising of the sun (presumably through rotating the planet, but you never know) and another controlling the moon, I think controlling surface temperature is a piece of cake.

After all, is Celestia can magically control the rotation of an entire planet (or conversely, more powerfully, the sun of the planet itself), she's not going to have a problem adjusting the angle at which the sun hits the planet. The winters probably barely freeze. Plus, who's to say that the freezing point of water in Equestria is even 32°F/0°C. It could be 60 degrees for all we know. They could just even make snow happen to introduce Nitrogen back into the soil and to put plants on a winter rest cycle; if temperate Equestrian plants even NEED Nitrogen and the winter rest period like some on Earth do. It might not even have been a natural phenomenon in Ponyville, but more of a tradition or a necessary step in crop growing- induced by magic after Celestia took over the duties of the sun. Who knows. Maybe ponies just take pride and enjoyment in the physical PROCESS of farming.

Anyway, I'm off track here. There's just so much we don't know about Equestria, that sure we can extrapolate and make all their physics based on real-world laws and preconceptions, but since it's a cartoon they're just going to throw a wrench in there at you anyway nullifying things you've established as "fact" and then ruin anything you have based on that fact. If this was a real-world discovery of another planet with talking horses on it, I would be all for finding out the biological and physical laws. I'm even for it if you are doing a tongue-in-cheek report for school. It's cute, it's clever, and it's funny. But since this is a cartoon, written by people who probably only have a precursory knowledge of how weather, gravity, etc, works, they're going to break it and make things contradict each other, and then people are going to be all bummed out, especially if it gets coded as RP canon.

So why not just call it "magic" and enjoy it?

[knight]

Well, assuming that Celestia is as smart as anypony who has been alive for thousands of years, one could also assume she understands the science of what she does when bringing up the moon and sun.

The moon has a gravitational pull, which alters and affects bodies of water, and the suns distance from the earth, as well as the change of season that makes the day seem longer and night shorter, and vise versa, the atmospheric result would be similar to our own. With the globe that equestria is on going into a brief winter state as the planet orbits at a higher pace, but is closer to the sun, and then a slower pace when it's farther away, thus creating the affect of summer.

It's really all very impracticle. It would make it seem like Equestria is actually the center of orbit, and the sun moves around it. But that..really doesn't make any sense astrologically speaking, unless Equestria is larger than its sun, or it has two moons, one that is made of lava and the other a cold rock. But, again, that wouldn't make any sense. If the orbiting moon was a 'star' like the sun, the planet would suffer from much higher temperatures in order to keep the sun within it's orbit.

Okay. Equestria shouldn't exist, really. It's impossible.

[HopeFox]

It's really all very impracticle. It would make it seem like Equestria is actually the center of orbit, and the sun moves around it. But that..really doesn't make any sense astrologically speaking, unless Equestria is larger than its sun, or it has two moons, one that is made of lava and the other a cold rock. But, again, that wouldn't make any sense. If the orbiting moon was a 'star' like the sun, the planet would suffer from much higher temperatures in order to keep the sun within it's orbit.

The majority of fans I talk to assume that Equestria's sun orbits Equestria (or the planet on which Equestria lies), rather than the other way around. It's very difficult to make Celestia's control over the sun make sense any other way. Also, Sonic Rainboom suggests that the sun is much closer to the earth than ours is - the idea of Rarity "flying too close to the sun" just doesn't make any sense if it's millions of miles away, nor does her using her wings to cast a silhouette over the entire Cloudisseum.

Thus, my interpretation is that Celestia alters the orbit of the sun in order to create seasons. "Winter Wrap-Up" implies that the seasons are dependent on geography, because migratory birds fly south for the winter. This suggests to me that Celestia moves the sun's path north and south across Equestria. When it's in the north, southern areas experience winter and northern areas experience summer. When it's in the south, the reverse is true. Equestria probably has an "equatorial" region which experiences seasons like the tropics on Earth, even though it's not actually a sphere.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I know I've said this before somewhere, but when it comes to world building the important part is to focus on effects and not causes. An example of an effect is "A pegasus can fly 50 miles a day on average." An example of a cause is "The aetheric field generated by the pegasus resonance interacts with the gravity field causing a negative force."

Effects help you avoid unintended consequences as well as define the implications of the world you're building. Causes are kind of fluffy and can usually be avoided all together or just thrown in for giggles. ((And who doesn't like giggles? You can come up with and toss causes as you see fit, as long as they fit the effects. You could even come up with multiple causes and say that its a controversy amongst experts.))

In a similar vein of world building, Gene Roddenberry once noted that, in a police TV show, a policeman does not explain to the viewers how the primer of the bullet ignites the main charge, propelling the lead slug down the barrel every time he shoots his handgun. Neither should a character in some science fiction show explain the operating principles of their laser blaster, what it does is what is important to the audience.

Likewise, it doesn't really matter how magic works in Equestria, as long as we know what it does.

---

What we know about weather in Equestria.

• The sun rises and sets opposite the moon.

• It gets cold in the winter.

• Weather can change quickly.

• Its warmer in the south than the north.

• There is at least one place in the world where the weather runs itself.

[flutterscotch]

the idea of Rarity "flying too close to the sun" just doesn't make any sense if it's millions of miles away.

I am fairly sure that was less of an actual science thing, and more of a reference to the myth of Icarus.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

It is possible to get temperature inversions in real life, where the air is warmer the higher you get. Usually when a warm air mass occludes a colder air mass or in the winter when the ground radiates heat faster than it absorbs it from the air through conduction. Alternatively, gossamer is an organic compound which can be vulnerable to ultraviolet radiation. (which there might be more of higher up if you passed through a layer of absorptive gasses.)

[RCTwilightSparkle]

Magic.

[brianblackberry]

Magic.

AWESOME!

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

*sniff* Being flippant isn't that funny is it?

[brianblackberry]

I am fairly sure that was less of an actual science thing, and more of a reference to the myth of Icarus.

That is exactly what that was. It wasn't Rarity literally being closer to the sun in any measurable degree, she was just in direct sunlight (possibly at high noon) and the wings simply had too much stress and "boom"! But overall it was a play on that old story and I am sure that is all the writers meant it to be.

[brianblackberry]

hi hi

*sniff* Being flippant isn't that funny is it?

No one is being flippant towards you, your ideas are good (they really are!) I just got a great laugh out of Scotchie's comment as it is just *that* funny

That and just that it hasn't been an issue so we can assume somehow this particular problem is handled adequately in Equestria.

[flutterscotch]

hi hi

*sniff* Being flippant isn't that funny is it?

Well, it's just that the hastily researched science and speculation that people keep trying to apply to every natural phenomenon in the show can almost never apply consistently because other factors and events presented in the show invalidate it in ways that couldn't possibly happen in real life. Because the people writing the show are doing things for the LOLs, and not to keep the physical laws consistent. I understand that you are trying to have a serious intellectual conversation over this aspect...but this is the show that had cotton candy clouds filled with chocolate rain. We're just being as flippant as the creators are.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

The people writing the show are doing things for LOLs™, yes, but they're doing so in a way that LOLs™ are a consistent part of the world they're creating. Maybe I'm all by myself in thinking this, but I think that the world of Equestria has a whimsical, friendly, fairy-tale character that it remains loyal to.

"What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful 'sub-creator'. He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is 'true': it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside." - Tolkien

In the end, Equestria is a world where flying ponies walk on clouds, ponies are stewards of nature, rainbows are spicy, friends help each other, fire breathing dragons exist, ponies are rewarded for their hard work, and harmony is the most powerful force in existence.

It seems to me that, for the most part, the writers are being exceptionally careful to make sure they stick to the themes they've set up for themselves, because when they don't, magic doesn't make them immune to the kind of response that The Mysterious Mare-Do-Well got.

---

Suppose someone was trying to draw ponies with crayons and asked for help with crayon technique. Would ten different people pipe up to tell they person that they don't care about crayons?

[flutterscotch]

There is a huge difference between being consistent for the sake of the suspension of disbelief and trying to shoehorn hard physics into every aspect of a fictional world. I am not saying "don't be consistent". I am just saying that perhaps the way that things work on Earth don't apply to the natural order of Equestria. Pegasi hand-make snowflakes for crying out loud, and they all, to what we have seen of the 6-pointed vaguely star-shaped variety. No soil or dust particles floating in heavy clouds of a certain temperature, and depending on that temperature water vapor crystalizing in certain ways forming several different shapes of snowflakes, at least below Canterlot. There's a factory. Where the snowflakes are carved.

If you wanted to argue that ambient magic makes it so that snow can't form in certain areas of Equestria, or that nature in those areas can almost never take care of itself so ponies have to take up the slack, that I could agree with. That could be a consistent law, uses logic that is specific to the show and setting.

But from a scientific perspective with the little knowledge that we have about certain actual constants on this fictional world, especially when we've been shown that some things are outright physically impossible in this world or directly contradictory to how things work here, implying that some physical lays are exactly the same can't ever be anything but rampant speculation. We even know gravity doesn't work the same there.

Personally, finding that the hard science that someone has tried to apply to an aspect of the world is seriously flawed or directly contradicted later on pulls me out of my suspension of disbelief WAY faster than just simply going into it believing that the natural order and behavior of things is primarily guided by magic, and sometimes magic can work against any implied physical laws that the show's creators are working from. Less of a "let's see how the math works to make this so" and more of a matter of faith.

Yes, I know it's ridiculous to bring faith into this, particularly as I am not a religious person, but think about it: what keeps a cartoon character running through the air until he/she looks down? The faith that they are still on solid ground. Perhaps that is Pinkie's way of breaking the laws of physics.

As long as we as an audience keep our faith that sometimes inconsistent things are the product of magic, which doesn't 100% adhere to the physical laws that we know of, we really shouldn't have too much trouble with the suspension of disbelief. Look at all the old myths from all Western religions, since that is primarily the basis from which the show seems to get its. Even though they were working within the confines and actually testable physical laws OF our exact world; they were still primarily rooted in what could ostensibly be called magic. Magic, or the gods, or God, what have you, could break any given physical law at ANY time.

And it's not a matter of liking or disliking. Come up with a bunch of basic "laws" that don't have to be qualified using Earth's and what we know of our universe's exact physical sciences (and therefore can't be disproven by same physical sciences) that apply to how the magic keeps things going,and leave hard numbers and direct scientific comparisons using the exact physical laws of our universe out of it, and I doubt people will argue with you as much. I know I won't.

But you have to keep in mind that a significant number of us have already been through and graduated college. We've taken logic classes. We've taken science classes. Offhand although we can't spout back the exact principles as to why the science proposed is flawed, because we're beyond the point where we've needed to directly use it for many years now. We just know that the science is flawed, based on what we have seen, or have not seen, on the show.

In translating this to why on this forum that what is being proposed will open up another can of worms that not everyone on this board can deal with; sure there are college students here. But there are also many high school students, middle school students, people who never went to college, people who have graduated. The other downside to including hard science of how the physical laws work, rather than just general rules of how the magic may work if it has a mind to is that what you're saying might not be fully understood by everyone on this forum.

I am not being a neighsayer for my own amusement. I am not being a troll. I am not personally attacking you. I am just saying that trumping the magic of Equestria with hard fact and science dulls it. Brings it down to our level, and seems to make it grimier, grittier. More "realistic" sure (that is closer to what we are used to in our real lives), but this place is far-removed from reality and that's what makes it special. The magic should always hold supreme and be the end-all be-all of why things work in Equestria or else what's the point of having it?