My Attempt to Understand MLP

[JMHorse]

Hi everyone

I'm a contributor to a site called Adjective Species, which is dedicated to thoughtful exploration of the furry community.

As many of you will know, MLP is very popular with many furries. And many other furries, like me, are completely confused why so many smart, grown adults love a children's cartoon.

I'm on a quest to find out. Your benevolent dictator / evil overlord, Artax, is a friend of mine and a fellow furry. He has kindly offered to host my introduction to the show.

I'm writing about the results on [adjective][species]. The first article talks about why I'm doing this and what I'm hoping to learn.

You can read the article here http://adjectivespecies.com/2013/03/25/my-little-mlp-adventure-prologue/

The followup article is due to be published on Tuesday 2 April. There might be one or two more, depending on how everything goes.

If you're curious, please have a read. You can comment directly on the articles on [adjective][species] if you like, otherwise I'll be hanging around this thread. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on MLP, furry, and my approach.

Thanks, and thanks to Artax for his help, and all at Canterlot for hosting this thread.

JM

Your friendly local houyhnhnm

[Autumn]

Staff notes: 'Adjective Species' website may not be suitable for people of all ages as some adult topics are present.

[colour=#A52A2A]Please view at your own discretion.[/colour]

[Rosewind]

Hiya! Nice read! My personal take on My Little Pony and how it relates to furry culture is that furries by nature celebrate animals in art and culture. If we take the whole explosive off-target fan base out of the equation, I still think this cartoon would have its fans that appreciate the fact that it contains colourful, talking horses -- and these enthusiasts also happen to like talking animals in other media, too. FiM also shares great similarities between both fan cultures. For example, there are furry fans that enjoy furry things, but do not consider themselves furries. The same could be said of pony fans and bronies. Even Canterlot.com, by definition, is a fan site, not a brony site.

I think fans of furry culture have an easier time understanding what FiM is about because we understand how wacky our own culture is when we celebrate it, and the gate of entry is already wide open.

As for why I personally like FiM? I enjoy furry stuff, look at and draw furry art, and enjoy furry culture outside the lens of pony. Pony keeps me coming back because it makes a positive impact on my life. I think the fan base is fun, and just as widely varied and enthusiastic as the furry scene. Sometimes I think the line is blurred, and furries = pony fans. Some may not agree with this sentiment, but I think it boils down to fundamental respect of what a culture is, and how we apply it to our lives and take part in it. FiM is a sincere cartoon with genuinely good characters; it's bright, well-animated, fun to watch, and respectful of changes society is making to improve the quality of content aimed at young girls. It's a show targeted for them, but it was designed to be enjoyable to everyone. I think that's part of the magic that makes it so appealing, for furries and non-furries alike.

[JMHorse]

Hi Rosewind, thanks for the comments. I like your comparison between the furry fandom and the pony fandom, and I think it's very true, at least from what I know about the FiM fans. There is clearly a big crossover between the two groups.

Your comments hits at the nub of my curiosity. So much of what you—and everyone else—appreciates about FiM is the community that has developed around the show. I've seen reflections of this within furry, where the furry pony fans are clearly a happy, good-natured and generally enthusiastic bunch.

Of course, everyone in the community associated with FiM has one big thing in common: the show itself (and related media). We furries don't have anything so universal. That's the big difference between the two groups, and the big unknown for me.

[Rosewind]

I think the biggest difference is that furry culture is much, much older, which means it has disseminated across way more media than a focused -- relatively "young" -- franchise like My Little Pony. I would describe furry culture as the older sibling giving a hug to its little sister. She may not like it, but they're related, if not by ages, by focus and content. Pony has a similar history in that it has developed over time through different incarnations (generations), a lot of which I've seen regarded with either nostalgia or revulsion, depending on who you're asking!

I've had the pleasure of meeting some (non-MLP) pony fans at furry conventions, and some of them actually like the increased attention toward equine-loving furries. They've moved to embrace it, and consider it an accompaniment to something they enjoy.

[starswirlthebearded]

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a furry, nor was I ever a furry, and I'm still not a furry. I do respect everyone's choices, and some of my closest friends on this site, like Rosewind, are furries. I'm not sure how much help I can be, but I'll give it a shot.

I like the show, and have tried to describe why I like it for some time. I still don't think I'm capable of fully articulating my reasoning. I really didn't think I would like it. Several of my friends started watching it, and worked hard to convince me to give it a shot, and I finally caved when I was shown a clip if Discord. Watched the first two episodes and simply never stopped.

Now my reasons? I really still don't know. The best I can give is that its a well written programme and it is an honest show in the sea of cynicism that is the world, and by extension my life. I liked the characters and thought they were good archetypes that had a lot of potential. And it is really as simple as that. As I got into the fandom, that alone became a reason for me to stay. There is adult humor, good animation, and a whole slew of references to popular media. But those reasons are really superficial. Something about the show strikes a positive cord with me. It makes me smile, even when its not trying to be funny or clever. Put simply, it [usually] makes me at least somewhat happy. That is the best reason I have.

That is the show though. What really makes this show is it's community. I started RPing again for the first time in over a decade since I stopped Table Top RPGs. And I've met some awesome people. Some more pony fans than others. Some full on bronies who collect anything and everything, and others like myself who are content just enjoying the show and community.

[RarityDash]

An interesting read. I'll be curious to see you final conclusions.

Like Starswirl, I would not describe myself as a furry and have never had any real connection to the furry community. I'd in fact say that that is the fandom that is much harder to understand for me (though I suppose it's as simple as a shared love for a particular aesthetic). FIM is very straightforward to me. It is a piece of entertainment which is consistently fun, colourful, funny, cute, positive, imaginative and full of endearing characters. As a fan, the magnetic draw of the work is effortlessly apparent.

Personally speaking, while I love the creative and well imagined world enough to have spent countless hours exploring it on this site through roleplay, for me the ultimate draw of FiM is the characters. I've always been particularly drawn to works driven by strong, well-written female characters. The six core ponies in FiM are all female and all interesting, dynamic characters who are allowed to grow and learn. My favorite character, Rarity, at first glance, seems like the typical fussy, shallow and materialistic girl, and yet she is the artist of the group and also noted to represent generosity within the group, in stark contrast to how she might seem; she is one of the more mature characters, yet she can also be quite fun and silly and produce some of the biggest laugh. She, like all the primary cast are more complex and interesting than you might expect from the show, which is why i think people can identify.

An interesting thing, which sets the show apart from other shows targeted primarily at younger audiences, in regards to the characters is that the core cast who learn most of the lessons are all portrayed as adults within their society; none of them attend any sort of school-- in fact, they all work specific jobs (librarian, weather control, animal care, fashion designer, bakery assistant, farmer) and through them contribute to their community. I think this is something that helps draw in the adult fans, as unlike the countless cartoons set in highschool or before, there isn't the sense that it's behind them. These are things they can still take and learn from. These are characters they really have room to identify with.

The community is of course a pretty nice little bonus too. FIM would be great entertainment even without it, but the artists and the RPers and everyone who puts so much into the fandom makes being a part of it all the more rewarding.

As for your approach, I would attempt to put less emphasis on this being a "children's show" or "lowbrow entertainment". Going into things with that view set can be harmful towards the conclusions you ultimately draw. With any piece of media, I think it's best to approach with as open a mind as possible. Why worry about classifications? Entertainment exists to be consumed and enjoyed. If one does enjoy something, I really don't see why they should concern themselves over who it is "for".

[JMHorse]

@Starswirl

There is obviously something special about the show, and that's what I'm interested in discovering. The world is full of TV shows and cartoons that are well made, but none that seem to have captured the imagination of people as much as MLP. I've seen a few of my friends go through your exact process: curiosity that turned into a love for the show once they got their feet wet. I'm not sure if I'll fall quite as deeply as many, but we'll see I suppose.

@Phil

I don't judge MLP for being a children's show or being lowbrow, that's just how it looks from the outside. Coming into this exercise, I didn't know much about the show other than that there coloured ponies, and that they seem happy. I even accused one of my friends of making fun of me when he said that they had names like Pinkie Pie and Twilight Sparkle: I thought they were joke names, at my expense.

So I'm not going to use classifications as a judge of quality, or at least I'm going to try to avoid doing that. However they are a useful tool when describing something. I'm not going to be writing an episode guide, or describing the makeup of the characters. There's enough of that out there already, and besides, I'm hoping to delve a little deeper into why the show is so pervasive and engaging.

[RarityDash]

That sounds great then. I'll definitely be looking forward to seeing what you find. I guess just the wrong things stuck out to me when I read what you wrote.

Regardless, good luck with your undertaking.

[elsporko]

First off I find it odd you consider Family Guy a children's show. That seems like and off opinion. Immature doesn't equal kid's show.

I have some opinions on the furry community that may bias or complimate my opinion on it. I have no problem with furries, but I do think that most furries aren't part of the community because they actually are furries, but rather because they are drawn to a community where they are able to decide their physical appearences

I think liking Friendship is Magic has less to do with being a furry then it has to being a fan of cartoons in general. Many cartoons have non-human characters. If they are ponies, or monsters, or whatever doesn't determind if a person is a fan. If furries are fans of FiM it has to do with the fans being willing to accept cartoons as a legitiment form of media rather then the fact that the characters are ponies . FiM's relationship with the internet also is a big factor

[JMHorse]

Hi Elsporko.

Someone else had pointed out my error about Family Guy as well. I don't consider it a show for children - I meant to say that I don't consider it a show for adults. It's juvenile, geared towards a high school audience, or somewhere around there. It's not a children's show. Thanks for pointing that out.

Your thoughts on the furry community are interesting indeed. It all but impossible to nail down exactly what a furry 'is'. I like to call it a club, where the only criterion for membership is that you consider yourself a member.

Being a furry doesn't require you to have a non-human avatar (although most furries do); being a furry doesn't require you to identify with anthropomorphic cartoon animals (although most furries do). I'm curious as to what you mean by 'most furries aren't part of the community because they actually are furries'.

The FiM community, including the huge online influence, is something that I'm hoping to learn about. It's the big reason why I'm here on Canterlot: I'm really curious to hear what you guys think about my outsider's perspective of FiM. So thanks for reading and thanks for the thoughtful comment.

[elsporko]

I think as person who is actually a furry is one who has a fursona or has a connection to some sort of animal. I think many who claim to be furries are actually those with low self esteem or low self image who are drawn to the idea of being able to determind how they look (through creating their fursona) or by associating with a group that is often forced to defend itseld (which allows one to define himself as being persecuted)

In my experience people who are actually furries are less outragious or willing to start arguments over being a furry then those who feel a need to get attention or a sense of identity from whatever is conveniant.

[Sparkleheart]

Nooooooo the forum just ate my post! T_T Time to rewrite a shorter version...

Anyway, some of my own random thoughts about the show's appeal, trying to avoid repeating what others have said:

For furries, I suspect the talking horses get the show one or two extra points, but I think its popularity among that group probably has more to do with furries being more *embedded* in online culture in general than most people are. So they're more or less in the right spot to be exposed and potentially become fans. (Oh hey, NOW I get the autosave message.)

As for the general popularity of the show itself, well, it *is* usually a bit better than most other cartoons. (Though I'll admit the quality has become more variable since Lauren Faust left the team.) But more than the quality itself, the wide appeal probably has more to do with it being surprisingly age- and gender-neutral. Kids can understand it without adult audiences feeling like it's insulting their intelligence (most of the time). There are also some references and jokes that only adults will get, and I can think of at least one joke that would be WILDLY inappropriate for kids if it didn't just fly over their heads. For the gender neutral thing, the show pretty much avoids stereotypes about what characters should act like based on their gender. I mean, seriously, they could have animated and cast the show with all the characters gender-flipped but using the exact same script and the only noticeable thing would be that male Rarity is really flamingly metrosexual. (Which I think speaks to some other hangups our society has about gender roles, but yeah.)

But another aspect that I think makes a HUGE contribution, is the sort of world and lore it has. Basically, it's the kind of world where it's easy to create your own characters and stories without just making Mary Sues or changing the lore until the result is barely related at all to the original source. There's a ridiculous amount of room to expand while still being recognizable as MLP. Honestly, I think this is probably the biggest catalyst behind the fandom being able to expand so much. THOUGH I WILL ADMIT I may be somewhat biased here, as I actually tend to enjoy all the fan-created insanity more than the show itself. And of course this aspect means there's plenty of fertile soil for insanity to grow.

P.S. I regret to inform you that yes, friendship is literally magic in the FiM universe. Fortunately the show focuses more on the metaphorical magic of friendship, but you're probably still gonna gag at a couple episodes.

[QuickLime]

Wow I feel childish out here haha! You all have massive posts and I can just say a few small words on MLP!

When I first watched the show I didn't get the hype, then I watched both seasons, then season three and I still don't understand why I love it so much, it makes me happy, and it's formed a community that I feel fully a part of for a change, I don't feel like people look down on you for liking other fandoms here, be they furry, Portal, TF2 whatever, MLP is all inclusive and they take you exactly how you are.

You don't need to change to be a brony, and it's even okay if you have a different pony you favour than the others.

At the end of the day MLP and this fandom make me happy.

[JMHorse]

@ Sparkleheart

I couldn't agree with you more about the interesting gender issues inadvertently brought up by MLP. The show just wouldn't work with male characters, a fact that I find intriguing. This is definitely something I'll be talking about in my follow-up article (published tomorrow!).

MLP seems to have a high profile among a lof of largely online-based groups as you point out, and furry is once of those. I'm not involved in the online world as closely as many, so I'm not really in a position to judge whether furries are more pony-crazy than anyone else out there. However it certainly seems that they must be: references to the show are everywhere. I was at a large furmeet here in the UK and asked around about the show... I was surprised to learn that many, many furries—ones who don't overtly display as a pony fan (and there are plenty of those too)—are really into the show.

By the way, I love the name, if only because it reminds me of Sparklehorse, one of my favourite bands.

@Quicklime

You and Sparkleheart both point out how nifty your community is. The group that has grown around the MLP fandom is obviously what brings you here to Canterlot, and brings pony fans together in all sorts of spaces. Even if I'd watched the show and hated it, I would have pointed out how unlikely and awesome the pony community is. (As it turns out, I didn't hate the show, but you have to wait until Tuesday to read my full article. I'll post a link here once it is published.)

Thanks for the comments. You both show how the pony fandom is a positive and friendly place.

[JMHorse]

For the curious, my second article is now published on Adjective Species:

http://adjectivespecies.com/2013/04/02/my-little-mlp-adventure-verdict/

I think I understand why the show is so attractive to so many people. (Especially furries.)

[RarityDash]

Hmm, you make some interesting points, I suppose, but I think the article kinda misses the mark. Sure, I like big eyes; I came to pony by way of anime, so yeah that kinda character design definitely strikes a chord with me somewhere. It's pretty far from what makes the show unique though. You can find countless cartoons with big eyed, expressive character designs and most of them won't be half as magnetic and engaging as FiM.

Really what I think makes the show special is either outright dismissed in the article or glossed over entirely. This paragraph in particular stood out:

For all its value, MLP is not high art. The humour is childish slapstick, a pre-teen version of Ow My Balls. The characters are simply drawn and simply motivated. The morals of the show are relentlessly, mind-numbingly positive. As an adjunct to our no-sound experiment, we also tried looking away so we were only exposed to the soundtrack: the script, the songs, and the foley artistry are nauseating, pandering, moronic. Like America’s Funniest Home Videos without the videos, but less fun.

Characters simply drawn and motivated? The individual characters are the single greatest draw of FiM! Each possesses a distinctive, attractive character design. Each is a dynamic individual who grows and learns from episode to episode. Each has a certain complexity on account of her apparent flaws. Each is also strikingly different, lending the cast a variety of characters the audience can choose to identify with.

The morals are positive? I'm not sure I understand that point. Won't morals always be relentlessly positive by their very nature. The point of a moral is to reinforce positive behavior, is it not?

The script, the songs and humor are puerile? I would seriously beg to differ there. I find the writing clever and most of the songs to be engaging and memorable. The writers and composers are loved and respected by the brony community because of the quality and effort they put into making the show great (as are some of the animators). I really don't think the effort that goes into a quality episode of FiM can or should be dismissed or compared to completely banal, brainless entertainment. Sure there is some slapstick--a relief to some of us, as good slapstick hasn't been particularly prevalent in cartoons for a while as they have had to get "safer"--but there is more to the humor than just that. It's varied. It can be in time referential, clever, observant and boldly over the top. Perhaps you can find better comedy in other programs, but FiM can at times really hit hard with the laughs.

The article also makes no mention of the imagination of the show which is crucial to its success. The setting is almost as important as the characters in producing the magic we find in FiM. Really, if all it took were big eyes, female characters as the heroes and a focus on social relationships, why didn't this fandom coalesce around any of the countless magical girl anime that had all of that well before FiM came along?

That's not to say your core points are wrong; I'm sure all are contributing factors to the success of FiM. I don't know though. Maybe you didn't watch enough of it or picked the wrong episodes (as with most any show, not all of them are excellent). I just don't think this quite digs deep enough into what makes the show so engaging for so many.

[JMHorse]

Hi Phil. Thanks for the thoughtful and critical comment. It's not easy to be critical on the internet without being combative, so I really appreciate your friendly and intelligent tone.

I think your arguments are perfectly valid. I suspect it's an just area where I'm going to disagree with you, and probably most of the other pony fans out there.

The show impressed me, for the reasons I laid out in my article, and I do think that it's something special. But it's still fundamentally a show for small children, despite any easter eggs that might be dropped in for the unintended adult audience. I'm comparing FiM with art created with an adult audience: for example, I'm currently reading The Great Gatsby. Compared with MLP, it's a lot more complex, nuanced, grown up, imaginative, funny, etc etc.

MLP is great for all the reasons you mention: it's fun, it's positive, it's engaging, it has an amazing community of fans who have created something special. I won't argue that MLP is 'good' or 'bad', because that's a matter of perspective. I will, however, argue that it's (objectively) childish.

But regardless of the areas where we disagree, I'm pleased that you enjoyed the article. The intent is to try to understand the phenomenon from my outsider's perspective, and I hope that people will find my analysis to be engaging and interesting. I tried to keep a neutral tone, but it's difficult for something as polarizing as MLP: the pony fans will think I'm being unreasonably negative; the pony haters will think I'm being unreasonably positive. So thanks for understanding and not simply focussing on our areas of difference.

[starswirlthebearded]

The Hobbit was intended for children and yet many adults still read and enjoy it. Just because something is intended for children does not mean it is lacking in complexity or depth. Sometimes the opposite is true. I'm not saying that MLP is, because it isn't. But rather it is the simplicity that makes it great. It is earnest with itself. Media does not have to be complex to be entertaining. Looney Toons is exceedingly simple and is still one of the most entertaining cartoons of all time. Same can be said of Animaniacs.

In fact, I'd argue that describing something as childish is a poor descriptor of anything. And shouldn't be used as something negative.

CS Lewis said this...

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

I think that quote sums things up nicely.

[RarityDash]

I'm comparing FiM with art created with an adult audience: for example, I'm currently reading The Great Gatsby. Compared with MLP, it's a lot more complex, nuanced, grown up, imaginative, funny, etc etc.

But you're not doing this. Not in the text of the article at least. The comparisons you do make are to the fictional program in the film Idiocracy meant as an example of the decline of human intelligence and America's Home Videos, a real program infantile to the point where it's not so dissimilar from the fictional one. FiM is a series built on creativity, with writers who care and with characters who display depth. Maybe it doesn't stand up next to The Great Gatsby or classic literature like that, and if you want to make that point, that's fine (though I would argue that the true value of any work of art compared to another is a subjective thing for each person to decide). Comparing it to shows focused entirely on very stupid or careless people doing harm to themselves, however just doesn't seem fair at all. It is just fundamentally not that; if it were, the fandom would not exist.

[SteelEagle]

It was a nice attempt. The article was well-written, but it seems that that your misconceptions of what is childish or puerile coloured it to the extent that as an objective look it lacked something. Still, the effort was there and I think any disagreements we have will come down to matters of perception, which by their very nature mean that you won't truly grasp what we see, nor we you. Like the site, however!

[JMHorse]

@starswirl

I love the CS Lewis quote, and I hope I've stuck to the spirit of that in my article and in my comments here. I use 'childish' as a description, not as a measure of quality. At least that was my intention.

I can see how my own personal preferences, which don't normally swing towards the likes MLP, can be interpreted as a criticism that the show doesn't have value. (In fact, I'm sure that pony-lovers get that all the time, it's certainly been the vibe of a lot of the coverage I read when I was preparing for this experience.) Instead, my experience confirmed my suspicion that there is something a bit special about the show.

@phil

I think that's a totally fair criticism of my article, and one that I could have improved. My negative comments (which were only aimed at some elements of the show) was pointed, whereas positive comments on my overall enjoyment and appreciation for its quality were a little soft. As you point out, the MLP fandom is indisputable proof that the show is pretty great.

@steeleagle

Thanks for the kind comments, they are appreciated. You guys are really nifty here on Canterlot: the ability for a group of people to disagree with something in such a kind and friendly way is very rare indeed.