Sexism in the My Little Pony Fandom

[Rabukurafuto]

On deviantART today I found Sexism in the My Little Pony Fandom: An Essay on Inequality by Cuddlepug. The author claims the essay is out of date since it was written in early 2013, but I found the issues it brought up were relevant. Now, I am not accusing Canterlot Community and Role-Play of sexism; from what I have seen of it, this seems to be a safe forum. I just think it's a good topic to bring attention to, and I want more people to read it.

[SunlightHeart]

You know what I think?

That everyone needs to stop taking every word they hear as if their skin was made of wax paper. Stop pointing fingers at people and saying "Herp derp, you're wrong and your ideas are outdated." Stop staying "I'm offended" as if that phrase entitles one to some special treatment and most importantly accept that everyone is wrong in comparison to someone because everyone has different cultures, morals, and values.

Shouldn't be calling people wrong until their actions incite something that is objectively wrong. Such as a the massacre of innocent people. At the end of the day, people will be converted by whatever social movements is the most popular and has the most steam at the moment.

Not liking gay people was once the normal. Now saying you don't like gay people is a freaking strike against a person. That's so pointless, that I can't even muster the energy to care about stuff like that. We live in an age of change, and those who don't want to change are treated like just as unfairly at times as the people instigating change.

I don't know why I typed so much. I'd rather this conversation not even be on Canterlot.

[SteelEagle]

I'll be honest, I can't take this essay seriously. Much of the 'research' is done via anecdote which is always the worst way to conduct a research topic. As someone who was 'commissioned', Cuddlepug did a poor job researching the topic and the majority of the essay comes across poorly as a result. He raises many valid points but these aren't points limited to the fandom or nerd culture, but the internet at large. You can find such horror stories across any large online fandom, rendering much of the paper's efforts futile since it is a known problem.

So, in closing: Sexism is real, it is in every fandom and society, and this essay was a waste of time since it made the same points that anyone who has been in an online fandom would know about already. As a topic it was bland because we already knew it, and as an essay it was poor.

[Slazer]

You know what I think?

That everyone needs to stop taking every word they hear as if their skin were made of wax paper. Stop pointing fingers at people and saying "Herp derp, you're wrong and your ideas are outdated." Stop staying "I'm offended" as if that phrase entitles one to some special treatment and most importantly accept that everyone is wrong in comparison to someone because everyone has different cultures, morals, and values.

Shouldn't be calling people wrong until their actions incite something that is objectively wrong. Such as a the massacre of innocent people. At the end of the day, people will be converted by whatever social movements is the most popular and has the most steam at the moment.

Not liking gay people was once the normal. Now saying you do like gay people is a freaking strike against a person. That's so pointless, that I can't even muster the energy to care about stuff like that. We live in an age of change, and those who don't want to change are treated like just as unfairly at times as the people instigating change.

I don't know why I typed so much. I'd rather this conversation not even be on Canterlot.

I agree with this 100%, including on the point that I wish this topic did not arise on this forum. I have this feeling that it could be a real hotbed subject, and given that this is an all-age group forum, I do not think it is appropriate to be discussing it here.

[SteelEagle]

Actually, this forum is 13+ as of rather recent administration change. Such a topic can be broached and as long as everyone is respectful, it will be fine.

More on the essay:

Not only was it a pointless topic because everyone knows about it, but as I said before, he relies very heavily on personal anecdotes. While those are very useful if you are trying to hammer a point home, if you haven't made a point yet, they are ineffective. And he doesn't ever make a point that isn't already agreed upon. The start is so so full of himself about his own trepidation and mantle-carrying that he becomes the story at the start, which for any essay is an incredibly idiotic way to start. When he does get into it, he uses an anecdote and then spins off paragraphs of why what has been described is wrong- which everyone who would bother reading the essay and not troll it would recognize immediately is wrong without the paragraphs of indulgent self-importance. So much of the essay rolls with this method that it renders any message he may have had pointless. He doesn't have a target we don't already agree on, he doesn't have a message that we haven't already received, and he doesn't tell us anything we don't already know. Is sexism in the brony community any worse than other fandoms? We don't know because he doesn't do any real research, he collects anecdotes.

All in all, if he was actually commissioned to do real research, then he should return the money. If he was commissioned to do an opinion piece, he accomplished that.

[Rabukurafuto]

I'll be honest, I can't take any essay seriously if they can't spell skeptical correctly. Much of the 'research' is done via anecdote which is always the worst way to conduct a research topic. As someone who was 'commissioned', Cuddlepug did a poor job researching the topic and the majority of the essay comes across poorly as a result. He raises many valid points but these aren't points limited to the fandom or nerd culture, but the internet at large. You can find such horror stories across any large online fandom, rendering much of the paper's efforts futile since it is a known problem.

So, in closing: Sexism is real, it is in every fandom and society, and this essay was a waste of time since it made the same points that anyone who has been in an online fandom would know about already. As a topic it was bland because we already knew it, and as an essay it was poor.

"Sceptical" is how the word is spelled in the UK, and what makes this notable for the Friendship is Magic fandom is that it was aimed at girls to begin with.

[SteelEagle]

"Sceptical" is how the word is spelled in the UK, and what makes this notable for the Friendship is Magic fandom is that it was aimed at girls to begin with.

But it isn't important in how it relates to online fandom, which is where the sexism comes from. The initial target of the show doesn't frankly matter when we discuss thje subject at hand, which is sexism within the fandom.

[Rabukurafuto]

But it isn't important in how it relates to online fandom, which is where the sexism comes from. The initial target of the show doesn't frankly matter when we discuss thje subject at hand, which is sexism within the fandom.

From the sound of it, this is not confined online but has spilled out into some conventions. The fandom for a program with some very feminist ideas at its core, attracting a number of sexist fans who appear to not see any contradiction in that.

[SteelEagle]

From the sound of it, this is not confined online but has spilled out into some conventions. The fandom for a program with some very feminist ideas at its core, attracting a number of sexist fans who appear to not see any contradiction in that.

Whether it is a contradiction or not doesn't matter. This is a problem that has existed in fandom and in any male-dominated fandom will be endemic. The fact that it spilled over into some conventions doesn't matter in terms of the big picture because, again, where did those conventions originate? Who were the majority attendees? Members of the online fandom.

This isn't shocking or groundbreaking or new news. The essay was also poorly done.

[Rabukurafuto]

Whether it is a contradiction or not doesn't matter. This is a problem that has existed in fandom and in any male-dominated fandom will be endemic. The fact that it spilled over into some conventions doesn't matter in terms of the big picture because, again, where did those conventions originate? Who were the majority attendees? Members of the online fandom.

This isn't shocking or groundbreaking or new news. The essay was also poorly done.

Which means that fandoms need to be reminded of their problems more frequently, for there to be more recognition of problems like this. That's why some like Sexism in the My Little Pony Fandom needed to be written. You criticise use of anecdotes in it, but if that's all there was to report on then what other examples could be used to get the point across?

[SteelEagle]

Which means that fandoms need to be reminded of their problems more frequently, for there to be more recognition of problems like this. That's why some like Sexism in the My Little Pony Fandom needed to be written. You criticise use of anecdotes in it, but if that's all there was to report on then what other examples could be used to get the point across?

Fandoms may need to be reminded but that doesn't make the message worthy of praise if the only people who will be moved by it are those who were previously too stupid to see the sexism. I'm not a fan of "hammering it home" because all that does is convince the easily convinced or the idiotic, who by their very nature waffle and will never prove able to look past their own personal interactions and when those go back to the way they were, so will they in short order. In other words, wasted effort. A good piece would have gone instead for more academic methods, surveys and polls to not only discuss the breadth of the problem but the depth of it. Relying on anecdotes and interviews as the main push of the piece without actual research underneath it to support that this is a topic worthy of the effort makes it all incredibly flimsy.

Using anecdotes and interviews, you could make an argument for anything and everything since you will find people who have had experiences to justify your piece. What you need is some real academic research, or your best imitation of it, to give the interviews and stories their place to pepper and spice the inarguable statistics underneath.

It'd be different if he did of his own whim, or if he did it at the drop of a hat or didn't spend the first part of the essay building it up and assuming the mantle upon himself. Instead he was commissioned(which by the very nature of it will give his piece a slant) and spent a large degree of time on it. And in my opinion, his time was not well spent as the essay comes out poorly under any critical eye. It fails as a standard research paper and it comes across as pointless since it doesn't describe anything that we don't already all agree needs to end. It could have been two paragraphs long and got across the message just as effectively, which bodes ill.

[Rabukurafuto]

Fandoms may need to be reminded but that doesn't make the message worthy of praise if the only people who will be moved by it are those who were previously too stupid to see the sexism. I'm not a fan of "hammering it home" because all that does is convince the easily convinced or the idiotic, who by their very nature waffle and will never prove able to look past their own personal interactions and when those go back to the way they were, so will they in short order. In other words, wasted effort. A good piece would have gone instead for more academic methods, surveys and polls to not only discuss the breadth of the problem but the depth of it. Relying on anecdotes and interviews as the main push of the piece without actual research underneath it to support that this is a topic worthy of the effort makes it all incredibly flimsy.

Using anecdotes and interviews, you could make an argument for anything and everything since you will find people who have had experiences to justify your piece. What you need is some real academic research, or your best imitation of it, to give the interviews and stories their place to pepper and spice the inarguable statistics underneath.

It'd be different if he did of his own whim, or if he did it at the drop of a hat or didn't spend the first part of the essay building it up and assuming the mantle upon himself. Instead he was commissioned(which by the very nature of it will give his piece a slant) and spent a large degree of time on it. And in my opinion, his time was not well spent as the essay comes out poorly under any critical eye. It fails as a standard research paper and it comes across as pointless since it doesn't describe anything that we don't already all agree needs to end. It could have been two paragraphs long and got across the message just as effectively, which bodes ill.

The last is a good point; the author's other essays are much shorter, being written just because Cuddlepug felt like them. However, the views in those essays certainly line up with this one; that's likely why he was the one commissioned in the first place. If not commissioned he probably would have done a similar but shorter paper on his own.

A more academic paper would have it's place, but I think a more immediate paper like this will grab more attention and may lead to people attempting more academic looks at the problem in the future.

[SteelEagle]

The last is a good point; the author's other essays are much shorter, being written just because Cuddlepug felt like them. However, the views in those essays certainly line up with this one; that's likely why he was the one commissioned in the first place. If not commissioned he probably would have done a similar but shorter paper on his own.

A more academic paper would have it's place, but I think a more immediate paper like this will grab more attention and may lead to people attempting more academic looks at the problem in the future.

I think we've seen enough to not really believe that we will see such academic work as a result of this one. This is not the first time sexism has been a topic in the brony community and it won't be the last time, sadly. It has yet to spark any real research and I doubt it ever will, which makes the endless soap boxing on the subject unbearable.

[Rabukurafuto]

I think we've seen enough to not really believe that we will see such academic work as a result of this one. This is not the first time sexism has been a topic in the brony community and it won't be the last time, sadly. It has yet to spark any real research and I doubt it ever will, which makes the endless soap boxing on the subject unbearable.

So then to stop saying anything would be preferable for you?

[SteelEagle]

So then to stop saying anything would be preferable for you?

Seeing individuals take action would be preferable. Seeing more effort going towards real solutions instead of soapboxing would be preferable. All the author did was spend a lot of time telling us things we already knew, changing or improving nothing in the process. This, to me, is on the exact same level as saying nothing.

[Rabukurafuto]

Seeing individuals take action would be preferable. Seeing more effort going towards real solutions instead of soapboxing would be preferable. All the author did was spend a lot of time telling us things we already knew, changing or improving nothing in the process. This, to me, is on the exact same level as saying nothing.

And bringing more attention to the problem will prompt more people to take action.

[SteelEagle]

And bringing more attention to the problem will prompt more people to take action.

Adding another spotlight onto a subject that is already perfectly illuminated doesn't help at all. There was nothing revelatory or new about it and everything he said was already widely known. It literally changes nothing anywhere for the better for any length of time.

[RarityDash]

Personally, I found the essay to be an interesting read. I don't doubt that these things are happening in the fandom. I've always felt distanced from the fandom as a whole, and a lot of it is because the whole thing is saturated with more than its fair share of vacuous, self-entitled idiots and teenagers who may not yet know better. Sometimes it feels like that is who sets what the prevailing "brony" culture is, which is why I'm generally in no hurry to participate with most of it.

Sure, it's hard to make a definitive argument without any kind of statistics and things like this are definitely not limited to just this one fandom. Still, I think the writer is presenting something that is a real problem and one that people should take the time to think about. Will something like this actually accomplish anything real? Will these attitudes go away? Probably not. The ones who are the biggest problems for the fandom are always the ones least likely to understand why they're a problem.

All the same, I appreciate seeing something like this trying. I think it's worth having discussions like this, even if what it accomplishes is ultimately little. Personally, I'd argue that the problems with the fandom extend beyond misogynist attitude. It's the general self-importance, the entitlement that comes across to me as the most noxious element. The insatiable fan whining over every change, the stories of death threats against the hard working staff and other figures of community importance, all of it really wears over time. I do kind of wish this fandom would sit back and actually let itself take to heart the message of the show itself and start to actually mature. I realize, however, that that is probably not going to happen, but I can appreciate every little effort made to try and force it.

[Rabukurafuto]

Adding another spotlight onto a subject that is already perfectly illuminated doesn't help at all. There was nothing revelatory or new about it and everything he said was already widely known. It literally changes nothing anywhere for the better for any length of time.

This is not something that everyone knows about. Not everyone in this fandom has had years of experience with fandoms on the Internet, especially considering the target demographic. Friendship is Magic could easily be one of the first fandoms a young fan could join. Consider non-fans looking at it from the outside too. Most wouldn't look at it and automatically think "The fandom of this must have sexist fans". A good portion of comments on the essay are from male fans surprised there would be some incidents that brazen, who hadn't given sexism in their fandoms thought before.

[QuickLime]

I recall running into sexism when I first became a brony, being a female I was told I could 1: not call myself a brony because I was a GIRL and 2: I wasn't manly enough for ponies

[Rabukurafuto]

I recall running into sexism when I first became a brony, being a female I was told I could 1: not call myself a brony because I was a GIRL and 2: I wasn't manly enough for ponies

Thank you for sharing that. Such a weird thought process. I heard some complaints about this sort of behavior in 2011 when the fandom was beginning to build up.

Personally, I found the essay to be an interesting read. I don't doubt that these things are happening in the fandom. I've always felt distanced from the fandom as a whole, and a lot of it is because the whole thing is saturated with more than its fair share of vacuous, self-entitled idiots and teenagers who may not yet know better. Sometimes it feels like that is who sets what the prevailing "brony" culture is, which is why I'm generally in no hurry to participate with most of it.

Sure, it's hard to make a definitive argument without any kind of statistics and things like this are definitely not limited to just this one fandom. Still, I think the writer is presenting something that is a real problem and one that people should take the time to think about. Will something like this actually accomplish anything real? Will these attitudes go away? Probably not. The ones who are the biggest problems for the fandom are always the ones least likely to understand why they're a problem.

All the same, I appreciate seeing something like this trying. I think it's worth having discussions like this, even if what it accomplishes is ultimately little. Personally, I'd argue that the problems with the fandom extend beyond misogynist attitude. It's the general self-importance, the entitlement that comes across to me as the most noxious element. The insatiable fan whining over every change, the stories of death threats against the hard working staff and other figures of community importance, all of it really wears over time. I do kind of wish this fandom would sit back and actually let itself take to heart the message of the show itself and start to actually mature. I realize, however, that that is probably not going to happen, but I can appreciate every little effort made to try and force it.

I agree, it won't go away entirely, but it can be better exposed and marginalized. Less tolerance toward sexist behavior is a good goal. Yes, fandom entitlement is probably a big part of it too. It's why I normally stay far away from fandoms.

[SunlightHeart]

I recall running into sexism when I first became a brony, being a female I was told I could 1: not call myself a brony because I was a GIRL and 2: I wasn't manly enough for ponies

That is perhaps the most hilarious thing i've every heard. Not as funny as the joke about blacks and basket ball, but it's up there.

Pretty much the only response for that statement. The things that people say.

------------------

100 years from now when everyone is omnisexual and being straight/gay/bi/ is ignorant and you're a bad writer if you don't use pronouns that can include anyone. There will be no men or women, we'll all be zorks. 10 years after that zork will be old and ignorant, and the proper term will be splicks. You'll be old and ignorant if you aren't wearing tankbras, tall tubes, pantesses, caprigoes, or steel toed- high heels. Everyone will be orange. After that,everyone will be exactly the same, but everyone with their hair swept to the left instead of the right will be offensive, outdated, and ignorant.

I wish I could see those days.

[Rosewind]

I think people are throwing around the term "sexist" without giving its true meaning any particular thought. The fact a cartoon about colorful, mostly-female cartoon horses could spur any modicum of sexism is beyond logic to me.

[Rabukurafuto]

I think people are throwing around the term "sexist" without giving its true meaning any particular thought. The fact a cartoon about colorful, mostly-female cartoon horses could spur any modicum of sexism is beyond logic to me.

It's not the program itself, it's that it attracted some sexist fans who can't tell their views are at odds with it and harass other fans.

[QuickLime]

I think people are throwing around the term "sexist" without giving its true meaning any particular thought. The fact a cartoon about colorful, mostly-female cartoon horses could spur any modicum of sexism is beyond logic to me.

You're right, it's not so much sexism as it is Discrimination.