CommanderPonyShep Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 And the point I'm trying to make is this is not at all true. The show is more than just the big season opener and closers episodes. Twilight isn't even featured in a lot of episodes. The show is about the other five as much as it is her. The characters are well developed.The finale explicitly wasn't the situation you were talking about. Twilight never got the better of Tirek on her own. She needed her friends to win. Twilight never does anything entirely on her own with no help. Even during that fight, the strength she uses to keep up with Tirek is strength she has only borrowed from friends (the other princesses, in this case) who have placed their trust in her. The series is not becoming DBZ at all.Yes, people like the fight and don't like Rainbow Power, but what you need to understand is the reasons they do. It has nothing to do with any kind of themes at all. People like the fight because people like seeing things explode and characters fly around and fire energy blasts at each other (a lot of why DBZ was so popular too). People don't like Rainbow Power because the transformed character designs don't look good to them (personally, only half of them look good to me, so I can understand that). I have heard no one say they wanted to see Twilight use her princess magic to beat Tirek solo in that fight without her friends. People like how the finale unfolded from what I have observed; they like how the box was brought into it; they like all of it. They just think the Rainbow Power designs don't look good. It's a simple thing.When the Damsel in Distress trope is used, it's supposed to imply that true love conquers all. But in reality, it means that women are weak, helpless, and incapable of themselves, and need to be sheltered and protected. It also implies that men are the most dominant gender on Earth because of their physical strength, and therefore have power and control over their women. When writers try to imply the first notion when using the Damsel in Distress, they unintentionally imply the second and third notion without realizing it or caring.The Twilight/Tirek fight is no different. You're saying that you like the fight scene because of its violence and explosions, but hate the Rainbow Power and Castle because of their designs. But you're all unintentionally implying that MLP should in fact become DBZ, right down to the violence, the murder, the mass destruction and extinction, and even the Mane Five becoming useless, disposable, and might as well be murdered and stuffed in the refrigerator for the benefit of Twilight's story-arc. You don't mean it, and you want the show to stick to the friendship motif. But that's not what I'm seeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RarityDash Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Uh... Twilight is female. How does a female character fighting to save five female friends and one male friend even imply that men are dominant? I'm sorry, but I'm just baffled here.And no, really I'm not implying that. I'm not implying anything. I love the finale, but I don't even want every episode to be like it. It was cool and exciting and the perfect way to end the season, but that's the extent of my feelings for the finale. As good as it was, I liked other episodes more than it in season four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderPonyShep Posted June 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Uh... Twilight is female. How does a female character fighting to save five female friends and one male friend even imply that men are dominant? I'm sorry, but I'm just baffled here.And no, really I'm not implying that. I'm not implying anything. I love the finale, but I don't even want every episode to be like it. It was cool and exciting and the perfect way to end the season, but that's the extent of my feelings for the finale. As good as it was, I liked other episodes more than it in season four.No it wasn't. This isn't just because of the fight scene, but rather the people's reaction to it versus their reaction to the Rainbow Power, Rainbow Castle, and even three out of five of the key episodes. None of you care about the contributions the Mane Five made toward Twilight's journey, as if when you watched Dragon Ball Z, you wanted Goku's friends to get brutally murdered for the benefit of his story-arc, and that the same should be applied to Twilight and her friends.I mean, you didn't rely on your mothers as crutches once you moved out of their houses and into your own. You outgrew your mothers! Why can't Goku's friends outgrow Goku himself, or Twilight's friends with Twilight herself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelEagle Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 You are making absolutely no sense at this stage. Serious question- are you a troll? Because your logic doesn't make any sense otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RarityDash Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Why can't Goku's friends outgrow Goku himself, or Twilight's friends with Twilight herself?What exactly do you want? Do you want Fluttershy to zip around and shoot lasers from her face too? Is that the only kind of "growth" you recognize for the characters? Because every single one of the other five, along with Spike and a number of other characters in the supporting cast have been developed extensively in multiple episodes since the beginning of FIM. They do stand out on their own as characters. Twilight is and always has been the main character, but she has never been allowed to far outshine anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halide Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 No it wasn't. This isn't just because of the fight scene, but rather the people's reaction to it versus their reaction to the Rainbow Power, Rainbow Castle, and even three out of five of the key episodes. None of you care about the contributions the Mane Five made toward Twilight's journey, as if when you watched Dragon Ball Z, you wanted Goku's friends to get brutally murdered for the benefit of his story-arc, and that the same should be applied to Twilight and her friends.I mean, you didn't rely on your mothers as crutches once you moved out of their houses and into your own. You outgrew your mothers! Why can't Goku's friends outgrow Goku himself, or Twilight's friends with Twilight herself?Ooookay. So you're manically obsessed with shows that some of us have never watched or bothered with and insisting that 'we' all react in a uniform way that is not only wholly illogical, but also wildly inaccurate.Yep, nope, it's spiderman thread time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starswirlthebearded Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halide Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuickLime Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 I for one want Fluttershy shooting lazers from her face... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyface1010 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 I've given up on this topic, Commander. You aren't making any sense at all, and I just can't figure out what points you're trying to make. And I think everyone else feels the same way. I've tried to use logic to explain stuff to you, and you seem to ignore my more reasonable points and say the same thing over and over again. I guess its about time Spiderman now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshineTheleocat Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 I want it to be about war! And fluttershy armed with a fricken ak-74! And Rarity with a darn AA-12! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuickLime Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 AND HUGE BULGING MANLY MUSCLES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halide Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 I want ponies with frikken laser beams attached to their foreheads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuickLime Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 I want ponies with frikken laser beams attached to their foreheads!Close enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderPonyShep Posted June 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 What exactly do you want? Do you want Fluttershy to zip around and shoot lasers from her face too? Is that the only kind of "growth" you recognize for the characters? Because every single one of the other five, along with Spike and a number of other characters in the supporting cast have been developed extensively in multiple episodes since the beginning of FIM. They do stand out on their own as characters. Twilight is and always has been the main character, but she has never been allowed to far outshine anyone.Except people are talking so much about the fight scene between Twilight and Tirek, that it seems that people have almost forgotten about the Mane Five and their respective arcs. The reason is because the fight was so huge, that everything less felt unimportant, even the Rainbow Power, Rainbow Castle, and three of the five key episodes. And as a result, this derailed the show's core friendship motif, as if Twilight matters so much, that her friends are insignificant and irrelevant.There is also a phrase that describes it. It's called Spectacle Creep: http://www.urbandict...Spectacle creepBesides, I'm not saying that Fluttershy, or any of the other Mane Five need to transform into alicorns to become as powerful as Twilight. All I'm saying is that Twilight shouldn't be so powerful that she renders her friends useless. I completely recognize that there are ways to be resourceful without having to be a combatant, like playing as a healer in an MMO for example. Hell, the only good part about the Majin Buu arc was during the end, when Namek resurrects Earth and its people with the Dragon Balls, then the Earth population -- including Goku's friends -- all power up Goku's Spirit Bomb needed to destroy Kid Buu. In other words, an actual team effort, after a long, slow-paced arc of Earth and its entire population getting blown up and murdered.Twilight's friends are still resourceful even without her godlike alicorn magic. But when all power is stripped away from them in-exchange for making Twilight's already powerful magic even more so, then there is a problem. I mean, they resolved conflicts based after their Elements of Harmony and received keys as a result, for Celestia's sake! And the thanks they get is complete and total disempowerment in-exchange for the empowerment of Twilight? And, fans hated three of the five key episodes, the Rainbow Power, and the Rainbow Castle, despite them giving the Mane Five relevancy again, after they were disempowered and made disposable in-exchange for, again, Twilight's empowerment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halide Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Except people are talking so much about the fight scene between Twilight and Tirek, that it seems that people have almost forgotten about the Mane Five and their respective arcs. People aren't doing whatever the thing you're saying they're doing is. People are telling you outright about all the ways in which you're wrong and turning this entire farce into a spiderman thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RarityDash Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Except people are talking so much about the fight scene between Twilight and Tirek, that it seems that people have almost forgotten about the Mane Five and their respective arcs. The reason is because the fight was so huge, that everything less felt unimportant, even the Rainbow Power, Rainbow Castle, and three of the five key episodes. And as a result, this derailed the show's core friendship motif, as if Twilight matters so much, that her friends are insignificant and irrelevant....Twilight's friends are still resourceful even without her godlike alicorn magic. But when all power is stripped away from them in-exchange for making Twilight's already powerful magic even more so, then there is a problem. I mean, they resolved conflicts based after their Elements of Harmony and received keys as a result, for Celestia's sake! And the thanks they get is complete and total disempowerment in-exchange for the empowerment of Twilight? And, fans hated three of the five key episodes, the Rainbow Power, and the Rainbow Castle, despite them giving the Mane Five relevancy again, after they were disempowered and made disposable in-exchange for, again, Twilight's empowerment?The power was not taken from Twilight's five friends to make her stronger at all. Tirek took their power, and the power of countless others to make himself stronger. All of the power Twilight used in the fight she got from the other alicorns, and it was clear she only borrowed it. Twilight then relinquished all of her power when she saw her friends were captured. Their capture did not empower her at all, in any way. She chose to stand equally with her friends as opposed to keep fighting Tirek while they were in danger.You are really trying far too hard to see DBZ in it. it's really not there, even when you bend the facts ridiculously. It's just getting silly. Pay attention to actual facts and realize that why people think things is important .No one is saying they like the fight because it made Twilight seem more important for the three minutes it lasted.Yay for Spider-Man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderPonyShep Posted June 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 The power was not taken from Twilight's five friends to make her stronger at all. Tirek took their power, and the power of countless others to make himself stronger. All of the power Twilight used in the fight she got from the other alicorns, and it was clear she only borrowed it. Twilight then relinquished all of her power when she saw her friends were captured. Their capture did not empower her at all, in any way. She chose to stand equally with her friends as opposed to keep fighting Tirek while they were in danger.You are really trying far too hard to see DBZ in it. it's really not there, even when you bend the facts ridiculously. It's just getting silly. Pay attention to actual facts and realize that why people think things is important .No one is saying they like the fight because it made Twilight seem more important for the three minutes it lasted.Yay for Spider-Man!The Damsel in Distress trades the disempowerment of a female character for the empowerment of a male character. Yes, Twilight herself was female, but her friends, even the male ones like Spike and Discord, were all disempowered and made helpless, the same way a damsel in distress have all power and independence stripped away from her to empower the usually male hero. This heroic-rescuer/damsel-in-distress dynamic creates a power imbalance that implies that one person will always rescue the other so much, that the former might as well keep possession of the latter, and not let said latter become his own hero.You need to watch Anita Sarkeesian's three part Damsel in Distress video to learn more. To me, I can understand where she was coming from, and not just because females are the ones stripped of all power so that the males could rescue them and become empowered themselves. While Dragon Ball Z's supporting cast consisted of mostly males, they were the same way as your average damsel in distress, which would technically make them dudes in distress. All the power they had as martial artists with the same powers and abilities as Goku all get stripped away in-exchange for the saiyan's own empowerment, and in some regard Vegeta's, Gohan's, Goten's, and Trunks'. Even Bulma wasn't safe, and yet she used to have tons of storyline relevancy in Dragon Ball Classic, at least with her scientific and technological skills rather than martial-arts or lack thereof, right up until she had her own relevancy stripped away for the empowerment of Goku and the other saiyans!And before you say, "But Twilight teamed up with her friends to defeat Tirek", you need to remember that tons of fans liked the fight scene but hate the Rainbow Power and Rainbow Castle despite their respective themes. No one cares about themes at all, or storyline significance or character-arcs for Twilight's friends, not just Twilight alone. To them, it's all about the aesthetics and not the core, like a girl who cares so much about self image that she turns to bulimia to make herself as ridiculously skinny and "sexy" as possible.Also, I suck at defending arguments, if that's what you're worried about. I was taught by Internet critics like Carlos Ross of ThemAnime.org -- who gave Dragon Ball Z two stars out of five for its violence and lack of story -- and Confused Matthew that, even when presented with other people's viewpoints, I could always disagree with them. Unfortunately, I take that disagreement thing too far, and instead of stop the argument right here or there, I force my opinions down other people's throats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RarityDash Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Umm... no. Look at the facts of the episode again. Twilight was never fighting to rescue her friends. She did not know Tirek had them captured until he brought them out to make his deal with her, and as soon as Twilight saw they were in danger she gave up the fight to ensure their safety. She was not a heroic-rescuer and they were not presented as damsels in distress. The villain, Tirek actually won the fight (in that her got Twilight to give up), because Twilight's friends were more important to her than beating him. It was only then because she then got the final key from Discord that things were turned around. The situation just isn't what you're saying it is at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starswirlthebearded Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 She fought because Tirek destroyed her home and possibly more importantly her books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderPonyShep Posted June 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Umm... no. Look at the facts of the episode again. Twilight was never fighting to rescue her friends. She did not know Tirek had them captured until he brought them out to make his deal with her, and as soon as Twilight saw they were in danger she gave up the fight to ensure their safety. She was not a heroic-rescuer and they were not presented as damsels in distress. The villain, Tirek actually won the fight (in that her got Twilight to give up), because Twilight's friends were more important to her than beating him. It was only then because she then got the final key from Discord that things were turned around. The situation just isn't what you're saying it is at all.Then again, why care about the aesthetic parts of the fight scene, the Rainbow Power, and the Rainbow Castle, and not the core themes of all three? Why be okay with the fight for its flashiness and over-the-top violence, but hate the Rainbow Power and Rainbow Castle for their designs, their merchandising potential, and the fact that the former was Deus Ex Machina and the latter replaced Twilight's library? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RarityDash Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Because people have opinions. I don't even share those opinions, personally. I think half the Rainbow Power designs are kind of ugly, but I really like it as a concept and think it's a cool extension of the Elements of Harmony, which could be used as a deus ex machina to quickly resolve problems too. I don't know if I care for the castle's design either, but I don't dislike what it represents and I think the scene where the old library was destroyed was one of the most intense and well executed in the episode, so I can accept that being replaced with something new.People can think different and nuanced things about the finale as they can any piece of media without secretly wanting what you've been saying they want. It's that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderPonyShep Posted June 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Because people have opinions. I don't even share those opinions, personally. I think half the Rainbow Power designs are kind of ugly, but I really like it as a concept and think it's a cool extension of the Elements of Harmony, which could be used as a deus ex machina to quickly resolve problems too. I don't know if I care for the castle's design either, but I don't dislike what it represents and I think the scene where the old library was destroyed was one of the most intense and well executed in the episode, so I can accept that being replaced with something new.People can think different and nuanced things about the finale as they can any piece of media without secretly wanting what you've been saying they want. It's that simple.Well, if that's the case, then...Also, to be honest, I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I'm obsessed with My Little Pony, and I have a compulsion to repetitively rant and rave about its numerous problems, from the finale and its fight scene, to the fans opinions of not only the finale itself, but also the past five key episodes that came before it. So, I'm taking eighty milligrams of Fluoxetine and twelve milligrams of Fanapt to control my OCD symptoms. And unfortunately, they don't seem to do a good job, so far.Also, I don't care if Rainbow Dash's, Fluttershy's, and Applejack's had the worst key episodes. To me, all that mattered was that the Mane Five contributed to Twilight's journey, and did not become disposable and useless like they were in Crystal Empire and Equestria Girls. The reason is because I had to deal with the idea of a disposable supporting cast in Dragon Ball Z, and hell in some regard Naruto and Bleach, which also had a habit of trading the disempowerment of the supporting cast for the empowerment of the main-protagonists. Even Sailor Moon was guilty of this; in later seasons, Sailor Moon is the one constantly receiving power-ups, while the Inner Senshi constantly get left behind not only in-terms of power levels, but also storyline significance and character-development.Just because Twilight is the leader of the Mane Six doesn't excuse her from rendering her friends obsolete the same way Goku, Naruto, Ichigo, and Sailor Moon did their own. She's a small part of a larger universe, and her friends reinforce that notion. And, when you make her the ultimate savior while her friends become disempowered and made useless, then you're shrinking that world to the point that you make the main-protagonist its number one center and crutch, rather than a single part of a larger world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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