Feelings for Discord?

[DrMaxwell]

Mein Gott, Ginger, you managed to sum up what I've been trying to say for several posts now. I tip my hat to you.

*hat tipping action*

[Rosewind]

All the points made so far are well and good, but I think we're leaving out the fact that Discord occupied Equestria first before he was imprisoned (at least according to Celestia). That's why I originally said he was a martyr, and he was acting in a way to take back what was originally his -- also this is why he didn't hesitate to upset Celestia by messing with her subjects (and her kingdom). Justice, maybe? By that route, is he still evil for wanting justice and/or revenge?

Also Starswirl, all of my agreement to you.

Discord's short reign didn't seem to upset everypony. Some thought it was an improvement -- just ask Pinkie!

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

If you'll watch the episode again, you'll note that Pinkie Pie didn't actually think it was an improvement once she was discorded. All she did after that point was yell at her former friends, complain that she wasn't enjoying herself, and for the most part she just crossed her forelegs and refused to move. She was absolutely miserable.

Also, Celestia said "Before my sister and I stood up to him, he ruled Equestria in an eternal state of unrest and unhappiness." However, we also know that the three pony tribes founded Equestria after a blizzard caused by windigos, and when they originally founded Equestria, it was considered a paradise. So, at some point after Equestria was founded, Discord took over, and some time after that, Celestia and Luna stood up to him.

[starswirlthebearded]

hi hi

If you'll watch the episode again, you'll note that Pinkie Pie didn't actually think it was an improvement once she was discorded. All she did after that point was yell at her former friends, complain that she wasn't enjoying herself, and for the most part she just crossed her forelegs and refused to move. She was absolutely miserable.

Also, Celestia said "Before my sister and I stood up to him, he ruled Equestria in an eternal state of unrest and unhappiness." However, we also know that the three pony tribes founded Equestria after a blizzard caused by windigos, and when they originally founded Equestria, it was considered a paradise. So, at some point after Equestria was founded, Discord took over, and some time after that, Celestia and Luna stood up to him.

You know... America said the exact same thing about Iraq with Saddam Hussein. And ya know what? I think they were better off. History is written by the victors. How do we know that it was really that bad? We don't because Celestia and Luna defeated him. They told the story, not him. We don't know exactly what happened, we only know the winning side. Everything he did in the present could have been as Rosewind said, a form of justice. At no point was it suggested that he did the same things as he did over 1000 years ago.

[FlimFlam]

- In response to ginger mint -

I believe there is a specific saying people have for this.

"History is written by the victors"

So although ponies were likely to have been miserable before Discord's imprisonment, all we have to go by is Celestia's word. As such it may have very well been that from Celestia's point of view that the land was entirely depressed when that may not have been entirely true. After Discord's freedom, he may have been more inclined to cause more misery than what was perhaps usual in order to exact some form of revenge.

Edit - Darn it, just a few seconds late.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

For some reason I have a feeling that Discord and Celestia were best friends before he went all like chaos and stuff.

This is my headcanon.

You know... America said the exact same thing about Iraq with Saddam Hussein. And ya know what? I think they were better off. History is written by the victors. How do we know that it was really that bad? We don't because Celestia and Luna defeated him. They told the story, not him. We don't know exactly what happened, we only know the winning side. Everything he did in the present could have been as Rosewind said, a form of justice. At no point was it suggested that he did the same things as he did over 1000 years ago.

I think this is an excellent point, mainly because of the quote, "History is written by the victors."

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Yes, and there could also be a magical invisible flying teapot in-between the Earth and Mars, but without any evidence to support that claim, I'm not going to believe it exists.

I'm really not sure how to feel about this response. It confuzzles me greatly.

On one hand you've got a character who's supremely kind and benevolent, well respected for her wisdom and a former bearer of the elements of harmony, including the Element of Honesty.

On the other hand, you've got the self proclaimed spirit of chaos and disharmony, who tricks ponies with lies and illusions, makes them forget who they really are, and gloats about not playing fair.

Clearly, Celestia can't be trusted, and Discord really isn't being treated fairly.

(After all, who remembers the Armenians? History cuts both ways, do we really want to start bringing that up here?)

[starswirlthebearded]

hi hi

Yes, and there could also be a magical invisible flying teapot in-between the Earth and Mars, but without any evidence to support that claim, I'm not going to believe it exists.

I'm really not sure how to feel about this response. It confuzzles me greatly.

On one hand you've got a character who's supremely kind and benevolent, well respected for her wisdom and a former bearer of the elements of harmony, including the Element of Honesty.

On the other hand, you've got the self proclaimed spirit of chaos and disharmony, who tricks ponies with lies and illusions, makes them forget who they really are, and gloats about not playing fair.

Clearly, Celestia can't be trusted, and Discord really isn't being treated fairly.

(After all, who remembers the Armenians? History cuts both ways, do we really want to start bringing that up here?)

WAIT! You never knew that the moon was actually a tea pot!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmheWgtiMvw

Yes, a kind and benevolent ruler whom imprisoned her own sister to the moon for a millennium, because she couldn't figure a way to stop her without doing that in all of her wisdom. "You wouldn't know that, because I don't turn ponies to stone."

All I'm saying is that we don't know what happened. We are made to perceive things in a certain way. We do not know how Discord ruled, or the true history between Celestia and Discord. If Celestia was a truly kind and benevolent ruler she would have found another way other than imprisoning him in stone. Celestia won and told the story, we don't know if that is really how it happened.

Also... on the elements of Harmony... She AND her sister wielded them, we don't know whom had what element. And when wielding them alone she was far less effective, and she suggested this. It was when they worked together that they were able to use the elements of harmony to their fullest capacity. And when their connection broke Discord was released.

And again, he never *made* them forget who they really are, he allowed them to choose to forget and take a different path. They chose poorly, choosing to give into their own weaknesses. Discord doesn't possess that ability. He does possess the ability of suggestion.

I honestly think they went about it in the wrong way. Discord is the spirit of discord and disharmony, but even Q could be reasoned with, and they are essentially the same character. Are you saying two all powerful beings, Celestia and Luna are lesser than Captain Jean Luc Picard???? (Ok, so I fully admit that Picard was a total BA and should not be undermined at all)

[AgileFlourish]

Wow i never thought this debate would become both political AND religious haha

its cool to see so many different views on Discord

[Dessa]

While Twilight Sparkle may have done evil by sowing discord, Discord quite literally is Discord. You can point out the good things Twilight has done and make a moral judgement about where she falls. What good did Discord bring?

And yeah, the stories we've been told might all be lies, but they're the only information we've got. At best, we might say "Assuming what weve been shown is untrue, discord may or may not be evil." But to say he's definitely not evil because we don't know for sure that he is is a fallacy. I'll leave it up to Ginger to figure out the name of that fallacy.

Someone mentioned that nothing any of the ponies did was evil. Fluttershy deliberately taunted Pinkie Pie and slapped Twilight in the face with her tail. Evil. Much of what the other poines did might be thought to cross that line as well.

[starswirlthebearded]

How are those actions evil? Mean spirited perhaps, but certainly not evil.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

How are those actions evil? Mean spirited perhaps, but certainly not evil.

Well, by the definition of the word...

e·vil

adjective

1.morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.

2.harmful; injurious: evil laws.

3.characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering;unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.

4.due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evilreputation.

5.marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known forhis evil disposition.

noun

6.that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: tochoose the lesser of two evils.

7.the force in nature that governs and gives rise towickedness and sin.

8.the wicked or immoral part of someone or something: The evilin his nature has destroyed the good.

9.harm; mischief; misfortune: to wish one evil.

10.anything causing injury or harm: Tobacco is considered bysome to be an evil.

Blue and Orange morality is still morally off, and thus evil. So he didn't physically hurt any one? So what? What he did to them was worse.

"anything causing injury or harm"

Fluttershy slapped Twilight in the face, therefore causing her physical injury/harm. She also taunted Pinkie Pie, thus causing her emotional harm. By definition, what Fluttershy did was evil.

[starswirlthebearded]

Well, by the definition of the word...

"anything causing injury or harm"

Fluttershy slapped Twilight in the face, therefore causing her physical injury/harm. She also taunted Pinkie Pie, thus causing her emotional harm. By definition, what Fluttershy did was evil.

Honestly, that depends on the dictionary at hand. http://www.merriam-w...dictionary/evil <-- the causing harm part is associated with pernicious, which a mere slap is not. Though... taunting depending on the aim and severity could be, but Fluttershy's taunts of Pinkie were barely venomous.

Now, I will admit, that OED (which I consider to be the ultimate dictionary) is also vague with that definition of the word (I wish I could link it but I have it through subscription through my university). (btw, I say vague as in it doesn't cite modern usage where doing ANY kind of harm would be considered evil)

but let me cite the first two, since those seem to be the popular ones:

1. Morally depraved, bad, wicked, vicious. Also absol. Obs. as applied to persons.

2. Doing or tending to do harm; hurtful, mischievous, prejudicial. Of advice, etc.: Misleading. Of an omen, etc.: Boding ill.

Now for the doing harm... I don't know why, but I get the feeling its a bit more consistent and tangible rather than a slap. For some reason I cannot see a slap as evil, or a trip as evil (unless its say tripping someone in such a way that may cause them severe injury, like throwing a stick in their path while running or rollerblading).

Using the strictest definition of the word so many people would be considered evil, or their actions evil. Any class clown would be considered evil. It seems overly harsh. I cannot subscribe to that mode of thought. I was bullied as a kid, and I didn't even think those kids were evil, despite what they put me through. I consider evil to be the epitome of depravity in a heart. Fluttershy was a far cry from that. She was mean, not evil. Discord could be considered evil, but I think there is more to it, and I do not think it was handled in the right way, as again, being the same person as Q, it could have been dealt with in similar ways as Jean Luc Picard did and not ended it by encasing him in stone. And Q was far more vicious in his acts.

Edit: Looking at the Synonyms cited for that definition from #9.... "

9.

disaster, calamity, woe, misery, suffering, sorrow." Hm... Interesting.

[Dessa]

Ah, but you didn't argue that "Discord didn't make any pony evil, you argued "No pony did anything explicitly morally wrong while under Discord's influence." I'm not saying that fluttershy's act made her evil, I'm just saying the act was evil. Evil acts needn't always be performed by evil ponies. Even good ponies sometimes to evil things.

That Fluttershy's behavior didn't cause MUCH harm doesn't make it not evil, it just makes it less evil than something that does serious harm.

Which reminds me: Fluttershy was not "encouraged" to this state by Discord. She resisted his provocations entirely, and he openly bewitched her with no consent on her behalf.

[starswirlthebearded]

Also, I meant that as in they didn't intentionally cause lasting damage knowingly to anyone. Their actions while under Discord were trifling in the grand scheme. While morally wrong they weren't explicit in that they weren't lasting. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

I'm going to repeat this, because it is very important... Q, and by extension Discord, does not have the ability to bewitch. He has the power of seduction and to bring out latent traits in people/ponies. Yes Fluttershy resisted, but in the end, she had the capacity to become that, which is the only reason it was possible for Discord to affect her by forcing it out of her. She is the only one to not actively choose, yes, but the fact is that Discord does not posses the power to completely change a person, he never did.

I'm going to expand on this later, as I need to get to class.

[elsporko]

You can't bring up a character and the rules that apply to him to justify the actions of a different character played by the same actor. Discord is explicitly shown to be able to control ponies, not only was Fluttershy straight up mind controlled but Big Macintosh and Granny Smith appeared to be fully changed as well, unless constant dancing and being a dog are parts of their personality in some way.

Whether or not the characters behaved in an evil fashion after being mind controlled is not the question, the initial attack, violation, and manipulation itself is an evil act. He made them all jerks, but he could have made them all super nice and with the mental capacity of a toddler, it would still have been an evil act.

You can argue that Discord has to act a certain way due to his nature. Personally I think he was lucid enough and had enough self control that he could have taken part in his chaos creating ways in a less destructive fashion, but he either didn't care or enjoyed causing misery. I view Discord as a sociopath, he is very charming but cares only about his own enjoyment. We call a person who murders for enjoyment evil, evil if there is something that made them born that way, and Discord is in the same boat.

[Rosewind]

hi hi

If you'll watch the episode again, you'll note that Pinkie Pie didn't actually think it was an improvement once she was discorded. All she did after that point was yell at her former friends, complain that she wasn't enjoying herself, and for the most part she just crossed her forelegs and refused to move. She was absolutely miserable.

Also, Celestia said "Before my sister and I stood up to him, he ruled Equestria in an eternal state of unrest and unhappiness." However, we also know that the three pony tribes founded Equestria after a blizzard caused by windigos, and when they originally founded Equestria, it was considered a paradise. So, at some point after Equestria was founded, Discord took over, and some time after that, Celestia and Luna stood up to him.

Be that as it may, I think Hearth's Warming Eve isn't canon to the universe at large. It's at most old folktale, passed down, possibly changed through the generations. It's even presented as such, since it's a play and we have no real way of knowing how those events took place, or at what point in time (in comparison to Discord's reign, which was factual).

Everything else I've wanted to say in response, Starswirl has done a beautiful job of presenting.

As for the teapot example, just because you don't understand something or can't scientifically prove it doesn't mean it doesn't exist -- FiM made an entire episode out of this (Feeling Pinkie Keen).

What good did Discord bring?

[starswirlthebearded]

You can't bring up a character and the rules that apply to him to justify the actions of a different character played by the same actor. Discord is explicitly shown to be able to control ponies, not only was Fluttershy straight up mind controlled but Big Macintosh and Granny Smith appeared to be fully changed as well, unless constant dancing and being a dog are parts of their personality in some way.

Whether or not the characters behaved in an evil fashion after being mind controlled is not the question, the initial attack, violation, and manipulation itself is an evil act. He made them all jerks, but he could have made them all super nice and with the mental capacity of a toddler, it would still have been an evil act.

You can argue that Discord has to act a certain way due to his nature. Personally I think he was lucid enough and had enough self control that he could have taken part in his chaos creating ways in a less destructive fashion, but he either didn't care or enjoyed causing misery. I view Discord as a sociopath, he is very charming but cares only about his own enjoyment. We call a person who murders for enjoyment evil, evil if there is something that made them born that way, and Discord is in the same boat.

You know the problem with that argument is that the creators did base discord on q, they made that quite clear, going as far as to spend the money to get the same actor to play him. So equating q to discord is quite fair.

[elsporko]

Discord is based on Q, but that doesn't change the fact that Discord can straight up mind control ponies. Despite being based on Q Discord follows different rules.

Take as an example Frankenstein's monster from the book and the way the creature is depicted in movies. In the book the creature is intelligent and malicious, in many of the movies it is unintelligent and misunderstood. You have to take each one on its own since despite the movies being based on the book they are not the same character

[starswirlthebearded]

Discord is based on Q, but that doesn't change the fact that Discord can straight up mind control ponies. Despite being based on Q Discord follows different rules.

Take as an example Frankenstein's monster from the book and the way the creature is depicted in movies. In the book the creature is intelligent and malicious, in many of the movies it is unintelligent and misunderstood. You have to take each one on its own since despite the movies being based on the book they are not the same character

Or one can assume that the effects were all illusions. Including changing the ponies. If he had the power to change ponies like that, why not change Celestia? Seems like a silly oversight that led to his downfall.

[Rosewind]

How can a creature that brings chocolate rain be considered evil? I mean c'mon guys, CHOCOLATE RAIN!

[elsporko]

How could they be illusions? The ponies were obviously manipulated (or in the case of Fluttershy straight up brainwashed) into their behavior. That mind control not an illusion.

One of Discord's flaws was that he was overconfident. He just straight up let them take a shot at him. He didn't resist. Aside from the fact that without the elements Celestia was not a direct threat, it would be greater revenge to force her to watch him bring chaos to the land she ruled while not being able to oppose him.

[starswirlthebearded]

How could they be illusions? The ponies were obviously manipulated (or in the case of Fluttershy straight up brainwashed) into their behavior. That mind control not an illusion.

One of Discord's flaws was that he was overconfident. He just straight up let them take a shot at him. He didn't resist. Aside from the fact that without the elements Celestia was not a direct threat, it would be greater revenge to force her to watch him bring chaos to the land she ruled while not being able to oppose him.

The mane 6 had latent traits brought out. They each showed tendencies towards those personalities in S1. The other ponies in Ponyville were illusions (big Mac, granny Smith, et al.) And if every pony was affected by this chaos, then Celestia would have been as well, as every pony within Equestria was affected, including the buffalo from appaloosa. Why would Celestia not be included in that change is those changes were not illusions?

[Dessa]

Interesting that Pinkie had to break Discord's spell before she could again find joy in things. And telling. The little good that Discord wrought was erased by Discord, and required Captain Planet the elements of Harmony to nullify.

Also, I meant that as in they didn't intentionally cause lasting damage knowingly to anyone. Their actions while under Discord were trifling in the grand scheme. While morally wrong they weren't explicit in that they weren't lasting. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

Only because Discord failed. Had Discord had his way, he would have ruled Equstria in chaos...

[starswirlthebearded]

Interesting that Pinkie had to break Discord's spell before she could again find joy in things. And telling. The little good that Discord wrought was erased by Discord, and required Captain Planet the elements of Harmony to nullify.

Only because Discord failed. Had Discord had his way, he would have ruled Equstria in chaos...

Assuming everything Celestia said was accurate. It would have been more chaotic certainly, but our world isn't completely harmonious and yet it still isn't a dystopia. In fact because it isn't completely harmonious that makes this world interesting. Who is to say discord wasn't ruling in a similar fashion? You are making assumptions based on the victor's description, which could be completely wrong. We can easily take his actions here as revenge for the 1000+ years of imprisonment, he wanted to destroy Celestia's kingdom before starting his own. That does not make him evil. A for the mane 6, it was only so the elements could not be used against him. Basically trying to beat his enemies. The fact that he did it without harming them, when he probably could have blinked them out of existence if he wanted to. Now that would have been completely evil and still would have achieved his goal of neutralizing the elements of harmony.