Feelings for Discord?

[carameldelight]

I just want to point out that the ponies under Discord's spell were not aware that they were under a reverie. When Rainbow Dash is brought back to her normal self, she asks what happened to her. She has no memory of what she had done in her Discorded state. Thus, ponies were not necessarily miserable, but their personalities were possessed with a predetermined personality that Discord force-manipulated into them. None of the mane six had latent bad personality traits that could be manipulated. Pinkie Pie doesn't have latent anti-social abilities. Yes, she became anti-social once in the show, when she believed that she didn't have her friends anymore, but as you know, Pinkie's whole life is making people happy and being a good friend.

So, my argument is that the ponies never had those personality traits to begin with and that they were manipulated into their minds by Discord. Basically think of their bodies being possessed with an alternate being that is opposite of them in nature. And also, when someone is possessed, they have no memory of ever being possessed.

[SilverSwirl]

I just want to point out that the ponies under Discord's spell were not aware that they were under a reverie. When Rainbow Dash is brought back to her normal self, she asks what happened to her. She has no memory of what she had done in her Discorded state. Thus, ponies were not necessarily miserable, but their personalities were possessed with a predetermined personality that Discord force-manipulated into them. None of the mane six had latent bad personality traits that could be manipulated. Pinkie Pie doesn't have latent anti-social abilities. Yes, she became anti-social once in the show, when she believed that she didn't have her friends anymore, but as you know, Pinkie's whole life is making people happy and being a good friend.

So, my argument is that the ponies never had those personality traits to begin with and that they were manipulated into their minds by Discord. Basically think of their bodies being possessed with an alternate being that is opposite of them in nature. And also, when someone is possessed, they have no memory of ever being possessed.

QFT

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

As long as we're using unfalsifiable claims to support our arguments, I might as well throw another one into the fray. You can't say that Discord didn't cause any long term harm to anypony. The mane six weren't the only ponies that he altered. (Big Macintosh and others) Furthermore, there is some evidence to suggest that there was lasting harm caused to the mane six. Studies have shown that people who experience abuse and trauma are more likely to be abusive themselves. Twilight's actions in Lesson Zero provide strong support for the case that she did suffer long term emotional trauma from the experience.

[OccupyEquestria]

None of the mane six had latent bad personality traits that could be manipulated. Pinkie Pie doesn't have latent anti-social abilities. Yes, she became anti-social once in the show, when she believed that she didn't have her friends anymore, but as you know, Pinkie's whole life is making people happy and being a good friend.

So, my argument is that the ponies never had those personality traits to begin with and that they were manipulated into their minds by Discord.

No. First off, to say that they lacked those traits is to make the characters one dimension and without any proper psychology. Discord simply brought out the parts of them that were unharmonious. Pinkie Pie does have anti-social issues. She has a fear of rejection. If you have ever met a person who suffers from depression and manifests it through having an extremely happy and very social character then you would better understand Pinkie Pie. For Pinkie Pie she tries, she tries really hard to get people to like her even when what she is doing is the exact oppostie (as with Doodle) because she fears rejection and loneliness. Every pony in the series has a strong character development because they have real psychologies with real positive and negative traits. This is what makes them who they are.

[starswirlthebearded]

Twilight was the only pony to remember, because she was never affected directly by discord. However lesson zero was all her. That was pressure of having the princess as your mentor. I've seen grad students react the same way with their advisors and deadlines. And they had absolutely no trauma.

[carameldelight]

No. First off, to say that they lacked those traits is to make the characters one dimension and without any proper psychology. Discord simply brought out the parts of them that were unharmonious. Pinkie Pie does have anti-social issues. She has a fear of rejection. If you have ever met a person who suffers from depression and manifests it through having an extremely happy and very social character then you would better understand Pinkie Pie. For Pinkie Pie she tries, she tries really hard to get people to like her even when what she is doing is the exact oppostie (as with Doodle) because she fears rejection and loneliness. Every pony in the series has a strong character development because they have real psychologies with real positive and negative traits. This is what makes them who they are.

I'm not calling them one-dimensional, of course everypony has flaws. My example with Pinkie was a poor one, I admit. But what of the other ponies? They are the Elements of Harmony for a reason, they are the epitome of certain aspects of goodness, to have a latent opposite within them is almost unfathomable. Apple Jack is the epitome of honesty, she was forced a trait of dishonesty. Fluttershy is the epitome of kindness, you never see her wishing harm on others, she was forced a trait of hurting others.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

You don't know that for sure Starswirl. You may think that is the case, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.

If the burden of proof falls to me to dispute the hypothesis that Discord provided vital and necessary balancing services prior to an unjust imprisonment, then the burden of proof falls to you to dispute my hypothesis that Discord did cause lasting harm.

[starswirlthebearded]

Seems more likely ginger... At least in my mind...

Now... EqD had reported that Mr De Lancie recorded another mlp episode. Would it not be lovely if it was history and we could get definitive answers?

[Ashton]

I skimmed the first page so forgive me if all of this has been said...

Discord is an incarnation of an idea, he is the embodiment of chaos, Chaos is neither good nor evil.

On a liteary level, I love Discord, he's a brilliant vilian (both in conception and in his own right) and he got the short end of the stick for only lasting 2 episodes (I would have loved to see him as the season's antagonist or possibly even as one for the whole series!)

I also feel that he suffers from Blue and Orange Morality --- in short, his moral framework is so completely alien to us that we could never begin to understand it (paraphrased from the trope entry) There is also the whole "I am a god, you are ants" issue, where Discord simply cannot understand US either, it's like you or I trying to understand an ameoba or a bacteria, they're so simple to us that we overall just dissregard them.

Outside of the Mane 6, what did discord do that hurt anyone? Sure he caused a LOT of trouble and confusion and, well, chaos, but really in the end nobody else was hurt. He's certainly no hero, but I wouldnt peg him ultimately in the villian square either.

As for seeing him again, I think the only way we will is either a cameo (seen in tartarus, or perhaps is some greater eldrich abomination releases all the monsters in equestrian history) or if he is brought back to be a 'hero' in he wants to rule equestria, not destroy it, while some bigger bad wants it wiped out of existance (which would hamper discord's goals, as one cannot rule someplace that no longer exists, so he will join forces with the ponies to make sure it doesnt happen)

[Dessa]

" Celestia could have easily determined it was going to be worse this time around because Discord was out for vengeance against her."

...

Discord had no real intent and was doing what he was basically born in this world to do. Palpatine and Voldemort BOTH actively chose to go down the path of death and destruction. Discord never had a choice as the negative side of the balancing act of the world."

Okay, so first you speculate Discord is out for revenge, and then you say he was born to a purpose, and couldn't choose his own actions. If he acted to get vengeance, that suggests he had a choice about what he did.

The very idea that he would seek vengeance against Celestia means he made the DECISION to do what he did, and is like Voldemort. And if he didn't make the decision, then Celestia was right when she predicted his behavior because she had seen it in the past.

So in one case, Discord is evil because he chose to be a jerk, and in the other case, he's evil because he embodies an evil.

HE'S EVIL. Making up excuses for him out of thin air doesn't make this any less so. Just like making up excuses for Voldemort that probably never happened makes Voldemort any less evil.

All this circumstantial evidence amounts to nothing more than desperate speculation brazenly invented to defend the indefensible. You know you've lost, so you're clinging to a few unlikely maybes. Whereas all of the evidence we can actually see and verify disagrees with your claim.

So to review:

We see Discord do evil things.

We speculate he might have done things not evil.

We conclude he's really not all that bad.

I think you broke a logic, Stars Wirl He-Bearded.

[starswirlthebearded]

" Celestia could have easily determined it was going to be worse this time around because Discord was out for vengeance against her."

...

Discord had no real intent and was doing what he was basically born in this world to do. Palpatine and Voldemort BOTH actively chose to go down the path of death and destruction. Discord never had a choice as the negative side of the balancing act of the world."

Okay, so first you speculate Discord is out for revenge, and then you say he was born to a purpose, and couldn't choose his own actions. If he acted to get vengeance, that suggests he had a choice about what he did.

The very idea that he would seek vengeance against Celestia means he made the DECISION to do what he did, and is like Voldemort. And if he didn't make the decision, then Celestia was right when she predicted his behavior because she had seen it in the past.

So in one case, Discord is evil because he chose to be a jerk, and in the other case, he's evil because he embodies an evil.

HE'S EVIL. Making up excuses for him out of thin air doesn't make this any less so. Just like making up excuses for Voldemort that probably never happened makes Voldemort any less evil.

All this circumstantial evidence amounts to nothing more than desperate speculation brazenly invented to defend the indefensible. You know you've lost, so you're clinging to a few unlikely maybes. Whereas all of the evidence we can actually see and verify disagrees with your claim.

So to review:

We see Discord do evil things.

We speculate he might have done things not evil.

We conclude he's really not all that bad.

I think you broke a logic, Stars Wirl He-Bearded.

Voldemort chose to be evil due to his history and upbringing, and chose to kill all muggle borns (kinda like Hitler... Sorry... Godwin's law >_>). Discord is the embodiment of chaos. Chaos is again, not evil. We see him create chaos, which isn't really evil. No one knows what is going on and everything goes back to normal. The mane 6 don't remember except for twilight whom chose to give up, which is why she changed. He changed the world into one of chaos, it wasn't all that evil. Was it good for Equestria? No. Did he go too far? Yes. But again, he likely went too far because HE WAS IMPRISONED IN STONE FOR 1000 YEARS. Likely without proper discourse. If you were thrown in prison for life without a trial, how would YOU feel? Really? Would you appreciate it and go on your merry way if you managed to get out? I some how doubt you would. You would likely seek reimbursement. But you would never get that time of your life back. Discord had 1000 years stolen from him. We don't know if it was just or not, we only have Celestia's word to go on. We don't know if she tried to reason with him or not, or anything. I really hope if John De Lancie is brought back as Q it is a history, and we get to see what exactly happened. Because as of right now, I find it easier to sympathize with a guy who was imprisoned for 1000 years possibly for no reason, rather than to mark him as the absolute evil.

My logic is fine. You are hell bent on painting the world in black and white when it isn't. Doing evil things is not the same as being evil. Everyone does evil things from time to time, intentional or not. We have even stated, though at least partially unintended, Twilight has done evil things as well.

Again, neither chaos nor disharmony, the things he represents, are evil. They are not positive, but not negative either. They are neutral if anything.

Also, talking about the PAST and the PRESENT are two totally different things. He was born in the past to be the embodiment of chaos and disharmony. He sought revenge in the present for being imprisoned for 1000 years. 1000+ years ago he wasn't out for vengeance, he was just doing his design. Possibly creating a balance between harmony and disharmony.

[Dessa]

Even the guilty resent their sentences. Yes, I'd be mad if I was imprisoned for a thousand years, of course I would be. But what of redemption? Luna faced a similar sentence and now she seems quite reformed. Why did the elements banish the evil in Nightmare Moon and simply imprison Discord in stone? Perhaps Discords evil is unbanishable. Why? because he is a deity in a morality play, and his actions are meant to be interpreted as the very essence of his character. He literally personifies Discord, and his behavior is to be taken as the author's interpretation of the concept. His behavio, that which we see, is unequivocally evil. He attempted to make eternal the suffering of the mane 6, and that he failed to do so doesn't exonerate him of his evil intentions. We don't forgive attempted murderers after all, no matter how miserably they fail.

[Rosewind]

Voldemort chose to be evil due to his history and upbringing, and chose to kill all muggle borns (kinda like Hitler... Sorry... Godwin's law >_>). Discord is the embodiment of chaos. Chaos is again, not evil. We see him create chaos, which isn't really evil. No one knows what is going on and everything goes back to normal. The mane 6 don't remember except for twilight whom chose to give up, which is why she changed. He changed the world into one of chaos, it wasn't all that evil. Was it good for Equestria? No. Did he go too far? Yes. But again, he likely went too far because HE WAS IMPRISONED IN STONE FOR 1000 YEARS. Likely without proper discourse. If you were thrown in prison for life without a trial, how would YOU feel? Really? Would you appreciate it and go on your merry way if you managed to get out? I some how doubt you would. You would likely seek reimbursement. But you would never get that time of your life back. Discord had 1000 years stolen from him. We don't know if it was just or not, we only have Celestia's word to go on. We don't know if she tried to reason with him or not, or anything. I really hope if John De Lancie is brought back as Q it is a history, and we get to see what exactly happened. Because as of right now, I find it easier to sympathize with a guy who was imprisoned for 1000 years possibly for no reason, rather than to mark him as the absolute evil.

My logic is fine. You are hell bent on painting the world in black and white when it isn't. Doing evil things is not the same as being evil. Everyone does evil things from time to time, intentional or not. We have even stated, though at least partially unintended, Twilight has done evil things as well.

Again, neither chaos nor disharmony, the things he represents, are evil. They are not positive, but not negative either. They are neutral if anything.

Also, talking about the PAST and the PRESENT are two totally different things. He was born in the past to be the embodiment of chaos and disharmony. He sought revenge in the present for being imprisoned for 1000 years. 1000+ years ago he wasn't out for vengeance, he was just doing his design. Possibly creating a balance between harmony and disharmony.

How right you are. I totally agree with you. Not everything is "evil" or "not evil." Chaos by definition is too, well, chaotic to be any one specific thing. It can be positive as well as negative, but if it has to be something, it's neutal. Was what Discord did wrong? It was. Was there more reasoning behind it? Of course. We just don't know what it is. As Starswirl mentioned, De Lancie said he did work on another pony episode recently. This doesn't prove or disprove that Discord may return in some way, but it will be interesting all the same to see what will happen!

As that is said, I don't think Twilight's behavior in Lesson Zero was caused by Discord as a signature of emotional damage. If anything, it was caused by Celestia's treatment toward Twilight, having her live up to her expectations that sparked her negative behavior, which has more factual evidence behind it than what Discord did to her in one day, versus a lifetime of working and living under Celestia as her pupil. (I know that was a really good logic-fu chop Ginger, you can't deny me this!)

I must also stress that while FiM may introduce very complex social arguments, emotional issues, and character relationships, it is still a cartoon, and to pass on elements such as emotional damage to characters seems to be way out of its scope, and any observation thereof is probably coincidence.

[tacobob]

Looks like we will be seeing more of Discord very soon according to John de Lancie. Probably season 3.

http://derpyhoovesne...-lancie-to-mlp/

[starswirlthebearded]

Even the guilty resent their sentences. Yes, I'd be mad if I was imprisoned for a thousand years, of course I would be. But what of redemption? Luna faced a similar sentence and now she seems quite reformed. Why did the elements banish the evil in Nightmare Moon and simply imprison Discord in stone? Perhaps Discords evil is unbanishable. Why? because he is a deity in a morality play, and his actions are meant to be interpreted as the very essence of his character. He literally personifies Discord, and his behavior is to be taken as the author's interpretation of the concept. His behavio, that which we see, is unequivocally evil. He attempted to make eternal the suffering of the mane 6, and that he failed to do so doesn't exonerate him of his evil intentions. We don't forgive attempted murderers after all, no matter how miserably they fail.

It was also made quite clear that Celestia tried reasoning with Luna, but was unsuccessful (due process). Discord was not mentioned to have had such courtesy. Also, Luna was NOT reformed, remember? When she returned as Nightmare Moon she was just as vengeful as ever if not more so, because she was imprisoned for 1000 years. I recall a quote..."Does my crown no longer matter now that I have been imprisoned for 1000 years" or something like that. Yup, certainly seems reformed. Also "You'll NEVER see your precious Princess ever again." Oh yeah... Real reformed, right? The Elements of Harmony purified her evil spirit, something Discord does not have, otherwise, why couldn't the Elements purify him as it did Luna? This would support the notion that Discord is not evil, but just is. The world needn't be black and white. There is more to this.

Technically speaking, Nightmare Moon's intentions were far more nefarious than Discord's. No pony was going to die from the chaos. However, every pony would have likely died from lack of the sun (aka eternal night).

[Dessa]

Technically speaking, Nightmare Moon's intentions were far more nefarious than Discord's. No pony was going to die from the chaos. However, every pony would have likely died from lack of the sun (aka eternal night).

It's in Nightmare Moon's nature to cause eternal night. It's not her fault if everyone dies. She's like wolf that hunts rabbits. Isn't that how this argument is supposed to go?

As that is said, I don't think Twilight's behavior in Lesson Zero was caused by Discord as a signature of emotional damage. If anything, it was caused by Celestia's treatment toward Twilight, having her live up to her expectations that sparked her negative behavior, which has more factual evidence behind it than what Discord did to her in one day, versus a lifetime of working and living under Celestia as her pupil. (I know that was a really good logic-fu chop Ginger, you can't deny me this!)

Of course it wasn't caused by Discord. Ginger Mint mentioned that as the sort of speculative gobbledygook used to justify Discord's evil. What if Applejack is secretly Megan from G1? Now disprove it. DO IT. Disprove this ridiculous statement. Then I will disprove the wild speculation that Discord was a cool dude way back before he was randomly imprisoned for undefined reasons.

[DrMaxwell]

We seem to be going in circles here, and are getting nowhere fast.

The points of view I am seeing are as follows:

Discord is evil, because he is lucid, aware, and in complete control of his actions, yet chooses to make the ponies suffer

Discord cannot be evil because he is one-dimensional and is a physical embodiment of chaos, and cant be anything else

Discord is not evil, because we dont know exactly why he was imprisoned

Discord's psyche is too alien to mesh with our morals, so evil cannot be defined for him

I would add the inability to understand to the list, but he understood the ponies quite well, he just didnt give a hoot.

If we are to decide whether or not discord is evil, we MUST choose a set of morals to define him with. Shall we define him from the pony viewpoint(aka our society, vanilla style) or shall we apply a completely different ruleset, such as whatever discord follows? I doubt he considers himself a bad entity. I dont think he was necessary to the balance of harmony, either, else everything would have been horribly unbalanced with him gone, no? Also, Team Ginger/Dessa.

I love arguments/debates that dont turn into flamewars. It's so nice to see.

In a completely random and unrelated note, in the anime Evangelion, the angels and Evas were coded with patterns blue and orange, which I think is a neat reference to blue and orange morality, since the evas/angels were considered to be too alien to properly understand and communicate. My mind jumps topics like mad

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

We're arguing some semantics that really ought to have been cleared up pages ago. People are arguing two different definitions of evil and trying to tell the other that their definition is wrong instead of separating the two concepts into working definitions.

We have Type 1, Optional Evil. Discord arguably has free will, so it could go either way that he could choose to not be evil.

We have Type 2, Consequential Evil. Discord certainly hurt ponies, and is definitely type 2 evil at least.

Second of all, people are conflating two philosophical concepts that, while commonly confused, are two distinct things. I'm going to make a semantic argument and create two working definitions right now.

• Moral Composure: Standards of existence, character and personal being that people should conform to.

• Moral Relations: Guidelines for resolving differences between individuals for an optimal outcome.

We may not be able to judge Discord's Moral Composure, but we can certainly judge his Moral Relations.

Neither of the two is entirely objective or entirely subjective. However, Moral Relations are much less tied to subjective cultural norms because they are specifically designed to mediate disagreements between people who have different opinions about something. Not subscribing to a theory of Moral Relations does not protect you from consequences because it is inherently about dealing with issues across belief systems. This isn't just stuff people pulled out of thin air either. In the past, there were many philosophers that used rationalism as the foundation of their theories, but increasingly people are getting good, solid empirical data to back up their claims.

The unattainability of perfection does not invalidate the benefits of improvement, in the same way that the unreachable nature of infinity does not mean 5 and 50 are the same number. (And infinite possibilities does not mean that "friendship" and "inpdrsfhie" are equal arrangements of non-linear symbols.)

Chaos is not necessarily evil. Just as a scalpel is not necessarily evil. However, a scalpel can be used to perform evil acts, and so can chaos. Discord used chaos to perform evil acts. I think that means he had some choice in the matter.

Also, since when did "nobody died so its ok," become a valid moral defense? If I went and punched a bunch of people in the face and said "nobody died, and they'll feel better in a few days anyway," do you think I have a chance at avoiding repercussions?

[Snowshoe]

As a massive Trekkie, I loved Discord for the simple fact that he was voiced by John DeLancie, who provided that amazing talent to the character of Q (basically, the humanized version of Discord) to the show. He's an incredible actor, and the absolute perfect voice for Discord.

to when he first appears to Celestia and the Mane 6...his voice changes tone in a heartbeat, even with his first line ("What fun is there in making sense?") which makes him even SOUND like a God of Chaos. Not only that, De Lancie doesn't sound particularly villainous all the time, at least not stereotypically. He's one of those VAs who has a very compelling and awesome voice.

In addition, as ShaleCrow said (Only post of the thread I actually read xD), he's a threat. He's omnipotent and omniscient (just like Q), which makes him dangerous. The gleeful way he holds back on his powers is downright chilling...it's shown with Fluttershy that he doesn't even NEED to try and break the ponies, he can do it on his own. He toys with the Mane 6 and Celestia herself, which implies he's a lot more powerful than one would expect....heck, the only reason he loses is because someone passed him the Idiot Ball and he refused to notice that the Mane 6 had regained their colour. He's a chilling, exceptionally bad[You know exactly what goes here], and well written villain, and that's why I like him. I have a thing for Magnificent [More expletives] characters like Discord, and the Fanon idea that the reason he's so evil has to do with Celestia (particularly, a hard breakup or rejection by Celestia) just makes it even more interesting.

I'd love to see another episode featuring him, and the reason he is how he is and does what he does.

[OccupyEquestria]

An agreement with you Ginger would require that we suscribe to a concept of meta-ethics, that there is a moral universalism such as Kant's idea of universal justice. However, I do not subscribe to this. I subscribe to moral relativism and moral relativism refuses to apply a blanket perception upon actions that are not taken into context. In the context which it was used, I do not see Discord's actions as being evil or unjustifiable. From the current pony perspective his actions were highly negative and damaging. From the Discord or even Pre-Celestia rule period perspective his actions can very easily be seen as good and protective of the status quo.

Meta-ethics falls on its face when you apply it to direct situations. Celestia's actions to destroy the old world and inprison Discord are no less evil under meta ethics than Discord's attempt to destroy the current world and neutralize the mane 6.

[DrMaxwell]

Yes, the universal ethics are flawed for this situation. Still, in that instance, he was being evil. Even if it was revenge for being imprisoned, that's like tormenting a cop's kid because the cop arrested you. It doesnt make it right to target the innocent, no matter the reason. In fact, that would only serve against his case, if vengeance was his goal.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Context has nothing to do with a pure Moral Relativism. Once you accept context, you must accept that there are non-agent-centric rules that can apply to a situation to modify the action's morality. In order to mediate the conflict between the agent's perception and the external circumstance, you must necessarily apply a rule of some sort. Context based rules are no different from some old crufty philosopher's blanket perceptions except that they have a greater degree of complexity/number of variables and conditions. Also, well-being can be measured.

Once you are in a Plank of Carnaedes situation, taking necessary action against another is at best morally neutral, however if you played some part in contributing to the intractability of that situation, then you might still hold some measure of fault for letting things reach that stage in the first place. Its true that some blame may fall to Celestia for failing to reach a peaceful resolution, but based on what I've seen of both characters, Celestia is the one who's shown willingness to compromise, while Discord has not.

Yes, morality is a complicated thing, and yes sometimes people dictate rules which are entirely arbitrary. Those arbitrary rules don't invalidate the possibility of rules that are predictable.

(and again, Discord unnecessarily went after other ponies besides the mane six. Big Macintosh, Granny Smith, etc.)

[Tenkan]

One of my favorite villains. I think it's his voice that really sells it the most.

[QDiscord]

I approve of this odd debate. Mwahahwwahooohaaa!!!

[starswirlthebearded]

I approve of this odd debate. Mwahahwwahooohaaa!!!

You forgot this....

(I do so love those badges) Thank you ambris