The Changelings Are Innocent!

[Rosewind]

*throws a net over Ginger* Gotcha! I knew you'd come into this topic. I've been waiting for you!

By your logic, Princess Cadance is evil for using her power of love to manipulate the feelings between ponies. Discord's double standard to do something orderly to further chaos is chaotic in itself. I see you have no rebuke for PinkieDash! Ha!

Everything else: nicely said, you do bring some interesting points to the debate, but you know my stance with Discord, and now Chrysalis. Humans are a poor basis for comparison to predators and predatory nature, because we don't have the same nature as Changelings...at least in an Equestrian sense. By and large, our main food supply is domesticated and not hunted as often because it is readily available from other sources.

Swirly, go forth and science this!

[flutterscotch]

Rosie, I think we are all ignoring PinkieDash. And if we pretend hard enough, maybe it'll go away.

[SunsetSombra]

That's hard to do - given how it's the most singular popular element of shipping in the fandom...next to Celestia and Cake!

[starswirlthebearded]

I wouldn't call every natural phenomenon a disaster because natural phenomenon is constant. Rain is natural phenomenon but certainly isn't always a disaster, the fact we get energy in the form of sunlight that allows our ecosystem to even exist is a natural phenomenon; it isn't artificial nor supernatural.

The issue with Discord is that he disrupts the natural order of things. His chaos is ill-timed, he breaks the laws of nature and causes the world to work in a way that otherwise could never do so without the direct and continuous effect of his magic.

I only used the word phenomenon so as not to be redundant. I meant every disaster level phenomenon.

As for discord, he is only acting towards his nature. And he disrupted it in the way he did due to the mane 6 and Celestia. I can't say that it's his inherent nature to affect the world like that until we know how he affected it when he was in control without contest. It could very well be completely different.

[Lerian]

As changelings and ponies are both sapient perhaps they need to 'meet on neutral ground' and discuss a shift from a parasite/prey relationship to one of symbiosis, if such a thing is possible.

As it is possible to love more than one person and to love people in different ways, could the changelings shift from the 'short-term investment' of replacing a loved one and endeavour to be loved in their own right?

By feeding my changeling buddy some love, I now have an insect-like, armour-plated, jaggy pony sized buddy to help me against other dangers and predators I might run into.

In a time of drought our changeling buddies still feed on love so we have two, or more, times the workforce per 'pony-worth' of food.

In both cases it is in the changelings best interest to keep their pony buddy alive as a ready and easy food source who they may begin to care about as well*.

Symbiotehoof! /:)*(\

I have no idea how viable this is, was Shining Armour all /)6-9(\ because of something Chrysalis chose to do or as a natural side effect of her feeding on him?

*As sapients can changelings express love as we would understand it?

[Tenkan]

I don't see a reason why to apologize to Changelings. Sure, that's their nature, but we have to acknowledge that they're dangerous to ponies, and they've proven that already by attacking Canterlot.

Being hateful towards something natural is stupid, of course, but being overly nice to them and petting the lion that's going to bite me isn't in my schedule.

[Chapien]

Changelings themselves are not evil, they were doing what they had to to survive. Now, that wasn't necessarily always moral, but really, if a lion attacks a human, sure, everyone freaks out, but we don't really consider it "evil". I believe someone already stated this earlier in the thread, but I'll state it again: Changelings are to MLP what orcs are to Lord of the Rings. They can't necessarily be evil because, in my opinion, they aren't necessarily fully sentient (well, they are, but they don't necessarily have free will) - they are driven by instinct and by the will of someone both stronger than them and more clever than them.

However, though I do not believe that Changelings are evil - I may argue that Chrysalis is. Why? Well, let's continue the LOTR analogy - if the Changelings are the orcs, simply following instinct and command - then Chrysalis is like Sauron. The Changelings were simply doing what they were doing for food - and though one could argue Chrysalis was doing the same, I doubt that this is true. In the "This Day Aria" reprise, Chrysalis deliberately says that she'll soon control everypony - her intentions were not simply food and survival, but also conquest and domination. She essentially used the Changeling's hunger as a reason to invade Canterlot - so Chrysalis could be interpreted as "evil" (though again, this can be argued from another viewpoint) while the Changelings are just creatures of instinct acting out of the need to feed.

Discord, on the other hand, is simply a spirit of Chaos, and is hard to classify as good or evil. One could say he simply wanted to have fun, but you could also say he deliberately tore Twilight's friendships apart on purpose. Discord is basically a pony version of Q from Star Trek and is thus EXTREMELY hard to classify - perhaps even impossible to classify - as good or evil. If I had to, I'd classify him as Chaotic Neutral (using Dungeons and Dragons alignment terms, ofc) to Chaotic Evil, depending on his current mood and motivation.

[Rosewind]

Rosie, I think we are all ignoring PinkieDash. And if we pretend hard enough, maybe it'll go away.

I tried that with Unicornelius, and it didn't work!

[Conor Colton]

Now this is an interesting topic, I could have a field day with this one

While I agree the Changeling's are just like animals wanting food I don't really approve of their methods. Y'know, espionage, holding ponies against their will in green goo and generally causing havoc; that sorta thing.

In a way I could forgive the Changelings. They seem to operate like a hive mind, which is no doubt added to by the fact they have bug wings and look generally...Buggy

So I think it's just a matter of the Hive's brain, the queen being either out to get Equestria or just wanting food and using her control and superior intellect to the rest of her Changelings to gather food as she sees fit. Who knows, maybe it's normal for Changeling queens to do this, maybe Queenie's actions were justified in some way, there's still a lot we don't know about her so I can't say for sure.

All in all, I can forgive the Changelings, as a whole anyway. My opinion, they didn't know better

Ah that WAS fun

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Being that humans are sapient, just like Discord and Chrysalis, they are the perfect comparison to predators and predatory nature. Humans are our world's most successful predators. Even when you only consider our agricultural practices, we have appropriated more than 40% of the Earth's surface to our own ends, which is driving a massive and ongoing extinction event. I can only suspect that future generations will judge our irresponsibility unfavorably in this regard.

It is human nature to want things. We want things we don't have, but so strong is this drive that even people who have everything anyone could possibly need -the richest people in the world- they still want more. In fact, detaching one's self from the need for things is such a difficult task that people can spend their entire life trying to do so and still not succeed.

However, simply wanting something does not necessarily give people the right to have it, especially when the thing they want is someone else's. Theft, rape and slavery are all crimes where people take something they have no right to take, be it property or people's freedom to choose.

Princess Cadence's use of mind manipulation without permission was certainly an evil act. Whether that makes her evil or not depends partly on her willfulness, although like Twilight Sparkle from Lesson Zero, or the Cutie Mark Crusaders from Hearts and Hooves Day (who's actions in both cases were rightly considered wrong), she can get the benefit of the doubt for having been young and not knowing any better, possibly having had to pay for her misdeeds off screen. We don't ever see her use that ability without permission as a responsible adult.

Also: In the context of Equestria, being bug like does not follow that they are without intelligence. Even insects such as a humble monarch butterfly have been shown to be capable of comprehending concepts like friendship and loyalty.

[Bellosh]

Discord is basically a pony version of Q from Star Trek and is thus EXTREMELY hard to classify - perhaps even impossible to classify - as good or evil.

I kinda take offense to anyone that claims that Discord and Q are essentially the same. While Q was indeed a trickster who committed some very questionable acts, ultimately he thought he was doing humanity a favour or two. Discord on the other hand never bothered to claim such a thing. The only thing the God of Chaos cares about is wrecking havoc on harmony and ponies' lives for his own amusement, only providing vague and weak justifications that amount to nothing more than "lighten up a little, geez".

PS: Being an embodiment of chaos is no excuse for Discord in any way. The god is as intelligent as any other sentient being, and so he should be fully capable of recognizing the difference between being kind and being a jerk. Unless someone has evidence to the contrary, DIscord most likely made the willful choice to become chaos's avatar.

[Rosewind]

I don't think Discord made a choice to be what he is -- he's a manifest of chaos, just as a tornado could be a manifest of wind or a flame is a manifest of fire.

Q from Star Trek was his own character. He regarded all races (not just humans) about the same as we regard viruses and bacteria. His "favors" in a lot of the stories were ultimately the result of him trying to fix his own problems, using humanity as a tool to sate his own agenda. You'd see a lot of this in particular in my personal favorite series: Voyager. The comparison between Discord and Q is a fair one, as they do act similar with omnipotence, speech, and behavior; I don't see the similarity to be disrespectful to Q as a character, and quite fun to see present in FiM. It gave the fans a deeper connection to an actor that is doing a fantastic job representing the community in a positive way.

[brianblackberry]

I like to think Cadance doesn't force anypony to love another but simply removes or suppresses the anger or other temporary barriers between two ponies who already love each other, so they are reminded of their love.

[Thoth]

I like to think Cadance doesn't force anypony to love another but simply removes or suppresses the anger or other temporary barriers between two ponies who already love each other, so they are reminded of their love.

Maybe so.

But if that's the case, then Discord isn't at fault because he does it out of nature. If Cadance can play with love between two ponies like clay, then why isn't Discord, an EMBODIMENT OF NATURE, allowed to play with their personalities?

Like humans, ponies' personalities likely bend at whim. A person's personality will change, much like how love in their minds will change. Discord and Cadance's magic work in ways of both natural magic: Cadance with the emotion of love and compassion, and Discord in the element of chaos.

Without Discord's normal chaos, there'd be no Ying to the Yang. There'd be no plots to the episodes. Nightmare Moon would fail to exist, as she embodies pure chaos occurring. Parasprites signify chaos occurring. EVERY PROBLEM ENCOUNTERED IN THE SHOW IS DUE TO SOME ELEMENT OF CHAOS, OR RESULTS IN CHAOS.

Therefore, without Discord, THE SHOW AND PONIES WE LOVE COULD NOT EXIST

[Needlemouse]

Another thing to consider is that, as an embodiment of Chaos itself, Discord isn't 'evil' but 'contrary'. He intentionally brings discord and chaos to what others believe to be the 'norm'. This goes a whole lot of ways than you'd suspect. Take note of the fact that Discord actually LIKES Pinkie Pie, for example. He finds her enjoyment of fun and laughter to be something he has a lot in common with; but he doesn't hesitate to twist her into a backwards reversal of herself. Why? Because it's chaotic to do so, and therefor fun. If Discord were to encounter an EVIL individual - someone cruel, aggressive and foul-natured - he'd do the same thing to them, i.e. make them benevolent, kind and caring. Why? Because it's chaotic to do so. He's contrary to whatever is the norm. Up is down, left is right, black is white, good is bad, bad is good. Heck, if Nightmare Moon was still an issue, he'd have turned her into a giggling schoolgirl.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Removing anger or temporary barriers is still very immoral. I know I've gone over this before, but barriers and negative emotions can be entirely justified, and they are not just little hang-ups to be circumvented. When you impair someone's judgement like that, you are taking away their ability to consent.

Suppose you love someone and they start getting into gangs and hard drugs, not being able to get angry with the person you love could have dire consequences.

Whatever the circumstance, the only person who has the right to judge their feelings is that person. Other people may be able to judge how they act on their feelings, but for the feelings themselves, no one can say that someone is right or wrong to be angry any more than they can say someone is right or wrong to love someone of -for example- a different race, the same sex, or whatever criteria they use for themselves. Regardless of which choice you make, if you do not have the right, let alone the ability to make that choice, you're not a partner, an equal or even your own person; you're just an object at that point. Just a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself.

[Chapien]

I don't think Discord made a choice to be what he is -- he's a manifest of chaos, just as a tornado could be a manifest of wind or a flame is a manifest of fire.

Q from Star Trek was his own character. He regarded all races (not just humans) about the same as we regard viruses and bacteria. His "favors" in a lot of the stories were ultimately the result of him trying to fix his own problems, using humanity as a tool to sate his own agenda. You'd see a lot of this in particular in my personal favorite series: Voyager. The comparison between Discord and Q is a fair one, as they do act similar with omnipotence, speech, and behavior; I don't see the similarity to be disrespectful to Q as a character, and quite fun to see present in FiM. It gave the fans a deeper connection to an actor that is doing a fantastic job representing the community in a positive way.

The reason I still think Discord is hard to classify is because, even so he is a spirit of chaos, remember that chaos can manifest itself in many, many ways. There are good forces of chaos, bad forces of chaos, and then just pure forces of chaos. Though I am hesitant to call Discord "evil", I think he is certainly leaning more towards that than "good".

Also, Voyager. You're doing it wrong.

[SunsetSombra]

Voyager was a fine series, Chapien - you're crazy!

[Chapien]

It was fine. Just not the best! XD

[Rosewind]

Also, Voyager. You're doing it wrong.

Lies. Janeway is best Captain. She united literally half the galaxy with the Federation because of her adventures and choices. (I'm not a Trekkie, btw -- I just loved Voyager over TNG).

[Needlemouse]

I didn't mind Janeway outside of the fact that she totally killed any menace the Borg had as an enemy race.

[Rosewind]

I didn't mind Janeway outside of the fact that she totally killed any menace the Borg had as an enemy race.

Back to your ebola thread! *swats*

[Needlemouse]

*Infects! Infeeeects!*

[brianblackberry]

Lies. Janeway is best Captain. She united literally half the galaxy with the Federation because of her adventures and choices. (I'm not a Trekkie, btw -- I just loved Voyager over TNG).

makes note to draw Pinkie as a Trekkie.

Also DS9 beats all the other Star Trek series bar none!

[flutterscotch]

I think we are a little off-topic here. I suspect that Rosewind herself is a Changeling.