The Changelings Are Innocent!

[Rosewind]

You heard me, Canterlot. I am declaring myself a [colour=#339933]Changeling Apologist[/colour]. Here's why:

1. Changelings were (traditionally) invading Canterlot strictly for food. Can you fault a predator for trying to catch prey for food?

2. They're not evil for reason one.

3. They're also not terrorists. What defines terrorism, and would this invasion define it? I think NMM was closer to a terrorist for banishing day and forcing innocent ponies to suffer to make her point.

4. Same deal with Discord -- he's not evil. He was acting on his nature as an entity of chaos.

5. PinkieDash is best ship. Unrelated, but it needed to be said.

Discuss!

[RarityDash]

I could probably safely be called a changeling apologist too, but for one reason: Chrysalis is seriously cute.

That said, I don't think they're innocent. It's more or less a full on political invasion of one kingdom by another. They aren't just siphoning food; Chrysalis, the Queen seeks to depose the current rulers and fully take over Canterlot for the sake of herself and her kind.

Also, RariDash > PinkieDash.

[ping111]

Nuh-uh, TwiTwi! ... I'm really creepy. More realistically, TwiDash! Much better.

Also, I'm in a love/hate relationship with "just their nature". It's so true, and I personally love the Chang-a-langs (as my non-brony brother calls them), but wouldn't a sentient parasite eventually realize their error, become self-aware, and attempt to adapt (or just die)?

[hinata2000100]

These points are fairly valid. They weren't really doing any harm, they just needed food. And, like you said, they can't be punished for that.

We need to make, like a sig icon or something to show who are Changeling Apologists.

[SunsetSombra]

And now, a word from another wronged party!

[colour=#696969]Hello? Is this thing on...gah, darn statue telepathy, never can be sure if I'm getting out on the right frequ-...ah, I think that's working...splendid![/colour]

[colour=#696969]Honestly, One proposes to turn the whole palace into a bouncy castle and this merits the literal stonewalling? And you wonder why I roll my eyes at your 'esteemed' leader so - no sense of humor, a real buzzkill. Those two royal pains have no idea about how bored their subjects were all those years ago before imprisoning my delightfully dashing self into a stony shadow of my former self - All I wanted to do was perhaps liven things up a little, and make things a little more memorable for everypony involved...then that rather overpowered rainbow cannon of Celestia and pals was called into play and ruined everything, slandering my good name...which had as a matter of fact never had anything else but good natured pranks and perhaps the occasional chocolate storm. [/colour]

[colour=#808080]Compared to that 'Nightmare Moon', another Problem your so-called Princess Celestia inflicted upon herself by not bothering to help Luna understand and come to terms with their subjects true feelings about her delightful night skies...why, I'm nothing more than a joker with an occasional mean streak.

Ha - Eternal night? That's far more potentially harmful than anything I ever did, and your two princess ponies both know that little factoid.

And you've all discussed the changelings - why do you think Celestia never thought to sort the matter out peacefully?[/colour]

[colour=#808080]I'll TELL you - she never even attempted to make peaceful agreements with the changeling hive - she's the supposed pony ruler of all of Equestria, and she let this poor, starving race plot for all this time...never once thinking or givng them any quarter to have their say, never even attempted to approach them to arrange some kind of peace treaty or agreement. No, Celestia did what she always did and quietly occupied the entire Equestrian pony races into a safe, warm bubble of snowflake'ism, believing that they were the centre of the universe and that nothing anywhere would hurt them so long as Princess Celestia governed over them.

Well, for the record - Equestrias very way of life is under threat BECAUSE Celestia governs over them...by treating these 2 parties as villains and not setting out a solution or a discussion before troubles came to a head, Celestia deliberately and knowingly put all of her subjects into harms way, and never once thought about the consequences...instead, choosing to drop Rainbows on anything that might argue back with her.

The power of Friendship? Neigh, this is the Power of tyranny, my little ponies...and one that Equestria has had imposed on itself because of one princess ponies personal inability to face up to and handle her responsibilities. Yet I am the one who is in statue-exile?

Praytell, where is the justice and the power of friendship in that?[/colour]

[Bellosh]

The thing with the Changlings is that well............. they're essentially the Tolkien-class Orcs of the Pony World. Despite their status as apparently sentient beings, these pony bugs never bothered to find a way to nourish themselves on love while peacefully coexisting with ponykind. In that sense, the Changlings can be considered "evil"... or at least their Queen can be.

As for Discord, he's pretty much a sadist through-and-through. It's not enough for him to simply screw with the laws of harmony and physics. No, he goes out of his way to utterly break the Mane 6 and their friendship even though he could have very easily disposed of the Elements of Harmony and thus safeguard his right to exist.

[Thoth]

As for Discord, he's pretty much a sadist through-and-through. It's not enough for him to simply screw with the laws of harmony and physics. No, he goes out of his way to utterly break the Mane 6 and their friendship even though he could have very easily disposed of the Elements of Harmony and thus safeguard his right to exist.

Now see, I disagree.

Discord screwed with the Mane 6 and ripped them to bits BECAUSE they were threatening to ruin his plans. He never hurt anyone physically throughout that entire rule he had, he never harmed the Mane 6 in any sort of way. He simply did what was in his nature, cause chaos and discord! He can't be considered evil because he is acting in his nature. He EMBODIES chaos! He was simply having fun, and when he was threatened by the Mane 6 and slated (No pun intended) to be turned to stone again, he did what any normal being would do...he protected himself! In general, he can't be considered ALL EVIL for being what he is: chaos incarnate.

[KingChrysalis]

No, they aren't.

Invading Canterlot was an act of war.

inb4 someone mentions my username

[DrMaxwell]

We have to see both Discord and the Changelings from both sides of the debate. The changelings, as has been said, were simply trying to survive. But as far as we know, they made no attempts to make a sort of peaceful arrangement, instead attempting to take over. Chances are, had they sent an envoy, or an ambassador, negotiations of some sort could have begun. Celestia, while not infallible, is a compassionate leader, and would probably choose a path of diplomacy. But, alas, we do not know all the history between the changelings and ponies, or if they even have one.

As for Discord, the argument that he is not evil, and never did anything to harm anypony, is sort of invalid. While he never directly inflicted physical harm, he turned their world upside down, and directly messed with their heads. He gave big mac the mind of a dog, set granny smith dancing endlessly, and messed with several other ponies in ponyville.

While that would count as evil for a normal thinking entity, the fact that he is the essence of chaos negates that. But that doesnt mean he had to stay in equestria. He could have gone elsewhere and had his fun, but he chose to stay in a population center and willingly mess with with the minds of weaker creatures. That choice to stay somewhere that would cause unhappiness for others is evil.

[ping111]

We have to see both Discord and the Changelings from both sides of the debate. The changelings, as has been said, were simply trying to survive. But as far as we know, they made no attempts to make a sort of peaceful arrangement, instead attempting to take over. Chances are, had they sent an envoy, or an ambassador, negotiations of some sort could have begun. Celestia, while not infallible, is a compassionate leader, and would probably choose a path of diplomacy. But, alas, we do not know all the history between the changelings and ponies, or if they even have one.

As for Discord, the argument that he is not evil, and never did anything to harm anypony, is sort of invalid. While he never directly inflicted physical harm, he turned their world upside down, and directly messed with their heads. He gave big mac the mind of a dog, set granny smith dancing endlessly, and messed with several other ponies in ponyville.

While that would count as evil for a normal thinking entity, the fact that he is the essence of chaos negates that. But that doesnt mean he had to stay in equestria. He could have gone elsewhere and had his fun, but he chose to stay in a population center and willingly mess with with the minds of weaker creatures. That choice to stay somewhere that would cause unhappiness for others is evil.

I have to disagree. Did you hear about that 7.6 earthquake far off the coast of Iceland yesterday? No, because it didn't affect anyone. The same with Discord - chaos is only "fun" when there's someone there to react from it - therefore making him a pathological bully. Sure, bullies could steal lunch money from a mannequin's pocket or punch a punching bag, but it's no use without the reaction.

Note: There wasn't actually an earthquake - it was just an example to prove that natural disasters happen all the time, and if there's no-one there to suffer from it, it's not really a "disaster".

[starswirlthebearded]

I have to disagree. Did you hear about that 7.6 earthquake far off the coast of Iceland yesterday? No, because it didn't affect anyone. The same with Discord - chaos is only "fun" when there's someone there to react from it - therefore making him a pathological bully. Sure, bullies could steal lunch money from a mannequin's pocket or punch a punching bag, but it's no use without the reaction.

Note: There wasn't actually an earthquake - it was just an example to prove that natural disasters happen all the time, and if there's no-one there to suffer from it, it's not really a "disaster".

That is a naive notion. Earthquakes are tectonic plate shifting. They cause chain reactions. You know tsunamis, reciprocal earthquakes on the opposite side of the globe. There is no such thing as a natural disaster that effects nothing. What about that volcano eruption that disrupted the air travel of the entirety of Europe for around a week? Perhaps short lived tornadoes can be isolated and not affect anything, but most natural disasters aren't like that. Especially since that is likely not true, because the pressure system that gave rise to the tornado probably did other things.

Basically every natural phenomenon that can be labeled a disaster because it affects something, even if it is indirect. And it incurs chaos as well.

Discord is the embodiment of chaos, which is to say that he is the embodiment of the direction of the entire universe, as according to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy does not decrease in a system. You can't fault him for that. All things move towards chaos, including people. Our energy does not get destroyed, it just becomes more disorganized, that is to say more chaotic. (As energy cannot be created or destroyed)

As for the changelings... I'm with ya rosie!

[Rosewind]

All of my love, Swirly! Together we shall take over these pit..er...love these ponies to bits!

[ping111]

That is a naive notion. Earthquakes are tectonic plate shifting. They cause chain reactions. You know tsunamis, reciprocal earthquakes on the opposite side of the globe. There is no such thing as a natural disaster that effects nothing. What about that volcano eruption that disrupted the air travel of the entirety of Europe for around a week? Perhaps short lived tornadoes can be isolated and not affect anything, but most natural disasters aren't like that. Especially since that is likely not true, because the pressure system that gave rise to the tornado probably did other things.

Basically every natural phenomenon that can be labeled a disaster because it affects something, even if it is indirect. And it incurs chaos as well.

Discord is the embodiment of chaos, which is to say that he is the embodiment of the direction of the entire universe, as according to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy does not decrease in a system. You can't fault him for that. All things move towards chaos, including people. Our energy does not get destroyed, it just becomes more disorganized, that is to say more chaotic. (As energy cannot be created or destroyed)

As for the changelings... I'm with ya rosie!

SWIIIIIIIIRL

Why did you have to bring science into this?

This is a world where a self-containing glass of chocolate milk which emerged from the sky can be explosive.

THERE ARE NO THERMODYNAMICS.

STAHP.

EDIT: Though you did use the ol' indestructible-energy-entropy on me. Well played on that.

[starswirlthebearded]

SWIIIIIIIIRL

Why did you have to bring science into this?

This is a world where a self-containing glass of chocolate milk which emerged from the sky can be explosive.

THERE ARE NO THERMODYNAMICS.

STAHP.

EDIT: Though you did use the ol' indestructible-energy-entropy on me. Well played on that.

Hey, exploding glass of milk chocolate was created by the embodiment of chaos. He might have expendable chaotic energy stored up, and thus be able to create random thermodynamic reactions which would normally not be possible! It is not like those exist normally in Equestria anyway.

And we know that the laws of physics exist in Equestria to some extent since Twilight not only knows but uses the Lorentz Equations in It's About Time. Who is to say that the laws of Thermodynamics aren't held true as well?

EDIT: I must apologize, I'm having way too much fun with this

[Linkhopper]

I think killing sentient beings is way beyond survival

[TheInvisiblePony]

I might as well throw in my two bits here:

Bit 1) Regarding the whole Discord thing, I do believe he was evil. Not stroke his goatee as he plots murderous revenge sprees evil, but he wasn't good and he sure as heck wasn't neutral. One could argue that he was doing the corruption of the main six shtick so as to prevent his second petrification, but he seemed genuinely pleased that they were suffering (Which they undoubtedly were. Rarity was starting to get very exhausted from carrying Tom, Pinkie Pie was snapping at anything that looked at her funny, etc.). He vary well may have been a force of nature, but that doesn't change that at the very least, the mane 6 considered him to be villainous.

And when we boil down right too it, that's all that evil is, isn't it? A direct stark contrast from an individual's idea of good. i.e. The mane six believed harmony was the ultimate good. Therefore, as the embodiment of chaos, discord must be the ultimate evil.

Bit 2) Chrysalis was evil. The changelings were also evil, but again, this is strictly a perspective viewpoint. Did the changelings see themselves as evil? No, they thought they were doing what was necessary Why they chose complete warfare over any more subtle strategy may have stemmed directly from impatience for food. Why steal scraps when you can take the whole dinner for yourself? However, the ponies were directly threatened by the changelings, and viewed them as morally unjust because they had A) brainwashed their prince, B) intended to eat their love, and C) Invaded their city and took it over by storm.

So, really, it just boils down to who's side you look at it from. I prefer to think of them as evil because they seemed to take direct pleasure in the strife they caused, but they almost certainly thought they were just having a feast, or having some fun. The end justified the means, after all.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

That said, I don't think they're innocent. It's more or less a full on political invasion of one kingdom by another. They aren't just siphoning food; Chrysalis, the Queen seeks to depose the current rulers and fully take over Canterlot for the sake of herself and her kind.

You just said the Changelings were not innocent, yet only mentioned Chrysalis in the next sentence. Sure, she wants to take over the throne, but all the other Changelings are just following orders in order to get food. Without Chrysalis in the equation, are the other Changelings bad because of what they have to eat to survive?

[RarityDash]

You just said the Changelings were not innocent, yet only mentioned Chrysalis in the next sentence. Sure, she wants to take over the throne, but all the other Changelings are just following orders in order to get food. Without Chrysalis in the equation, are the other Changelings bad because of what they have to eat to survive?

It's not really said anywhere that the changelings can only subside on love, nor is it clear that if they do how much is needed and if it has to be done in such a violent way. I would think there would be a more peaceful solution for them out there.

Also, following orders isn't necessarily a great excuse if those orders are clearly and inherently wrong. There is still guilt in not challenging them.

All that said, I can't blame the changelings. With that adorable smile and laugh, I'd be pretty tempted to follow Chrysalis' orders too.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

Also, following orders isn't necessarily a great excuse if those orders are clearly and inherently wrong. There is still guilt in not challenging them.

But what if they don't realize that they are wrong because it's all they've ever known?

[Needlemouse]

I still find it incidental that this board is primarily [colour=#ff0000]dragon apologistic[/colour]. The implication that all dragons are not savage, greed-driven brutes and that Spike is not the one and only exception due to effectively being raised to be as undraconic as possible, but rather that all dragons are capable of growing up and maturing with age - despite the very show itself stating that greed and hording is the dragon maturity process - is nonsense. It is in the nature of dragons to be vicious, selfish and greedy; Spike has just been housebroken.

To that same extent, one cannot fault the changelings for their own natures. It is their nature to feed on love, just as it is draconic nature to be greedy, aggressive and to horde.

[Rosewind]

I think "Discord directly affecting the Mane Six" is evil argument doesn't hold a lot of merit. He's chaos. He could have just as easily poofed to Appleloosa and affected the populace there with his chaos. Ponyville just happened to be the most threatening target. He knew Celestia was out to get him, and the best way to get to her was through her subjects. Let's not forget about his release, too -- that was caused by discord between the CMCs, which fed him power and allowed him the chance to escape. Chaos in inherent in all things, and a natural part of the universe. Discord was just a force of that nature, reacting realistically for survival and the right to exist.

[brianblackberry]

Basically every natural phenomenon that can be labeled a disaster because it affects something, even if it is indirect. And it incurs chaos as well.

I wouldn't call every natural phenomenon a disaster because natural phenomenon is constant. Rain is natural phenomenon but certainly isn't always a disaster, the fact we get energy in the form of sunlight that allows our ecosystem to even exist is a natural phenomenon; it isn't artificial nor supernatural.

The issue with Discord is that he disrupts the natural order of things. His chaos is ill-timed, he breaks the laws of nature and causes the world to work in a way that otherwise could never do so without the direct and continuous effect of his magic.

[flutterscotch]

They are evil for the simple reason they seem sentient and enjoy the misery they cause ponies, if their cackles are to be any gauge.

They are a little too amused with themselves. If I went after a chicken (an animal I would have absolutely no problem going through all motions required to make a meal out of it) with a can of some kind of immobilizing spray foam (since I don't have whatever weirdo glands they use), grinning maniacally as I immobilized them and tried to eat them, and turning myself into a chicken to taunt them, grinning as they struggled to move their feathers, well, first you would slap me in a nuthouse, and then, well, you'd probably say I was evil. Or crazy since I am just one person.

But when it applies to most of your society? Evil.

Since Evil is a subjective and not quantitative measure, we can assume for the sake of this insane argument I am setting up that I formed a small country of like-minded "gleefully chasing chickens with immobilizing foam and eating them because that's all I can eat, but I am super stoked about doing it and don't care who I hurt in the process because your feelings don't matter". Now let's say you were from a society of "people who keep sentient pet chickens that actually vocally express their emotions". You would think our whole society was evil.

And I would be left wondering, why are both of our societies SO obsessed with chickens.

Furthermore, we don't see what "active harm they were causing", but think of it this way.

They have to take the place of another pony to feed off the love for them. They are homewreckers, and there are other implications here, depending on how long their foray into other lands are. If this was meant to be a semi-permanent arrangement

A) What happens to those other ponies that they have replaced? Do the ones they change into just get shunted away into caves like Cadence?

B) What happens to the society as a whole when, for the sake of this argument, they take the place of one half of a pair of ponies who intended to have foals. Are their genes just incompatible and they can't breed so that population growth stops? Do they breed and slowly populate Equestria with half-changelings? Even if it's fine and eventually there are no pure changelings left and everyone all well and dandy integrated into society, but it doesn't change the fact that somepony had foals with some other pony who was not who they thought they were.

c) What happens when there are not enough ponies to go around? Eventually they will run out of ponies who were born in the time where the land was full of love. And if what I described in B happens, and they can interbreed, you'll have ponies being raised with the parenting skills of two separate societies. Will they be able to produce as much love as the ponies who were raided by ponies? What happens when the society fully homogenizes?

They are the very definition of Fridge Horror.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I can scarcely believe that this is an actual debate that people are actually having. Are you serious? The things that Chyrsalis and Discord did were absolutely evil, and I'm a little bit unnerved that I am going to have to explain why.

Argument 1: Changelings were invading Canterlot strictly for food. Can you fault a predator for trying to catch prey for food?

Rebuttal 1: First of all, you need to cross out the word "strictly," there was nothing precise or stringent about Chyrsalis's invasion plans. They were there for power as well as food. Chrysalis herself states that there was more love in Canterlot than they had ever had before, thus, it was their choice to try to take all of it for themselves, and far from being a non-sapient predator, Chrysalis showed the mental capacity to make that choice.

There are absolutely conditions where you can fault a predator for trying to catch prey for food. Human beings are subject to this judgement frequently. It is what has lead to the creation of the concept of "poaching." Furthermore, even non-sapient predators are subject to direct intervention when they are inadvertently introduced into a foreign environment lacking in natural controls.

Argument 2: They're not evil for reason one.

Rebuttal 2: As reason one is not valid, neither is reason 2, however I will leave you with this quote:

"Chrysalis had been wrong; she had always been wrong. A changeling needed others' adoration to keep moving, to keep breathing. That, she could have stolen; she could've taken it and eked out an existence as a footnote, always hungering for more. With friendship, freely given and returned... With friendship she could truly live." - Who We Are, kits

Argument 3: They're also not terrorists. What defines terrorism, and would this invasion define it?

Rebuttal 3: There is no ubiquitous, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism. This makes this argument highly subjective, but honestly the point is moot. "Not a terrorist," is not the bar set for good, moral behavior. However, by one common definition, "deliberately targeting non-combatants (civilians) is an act of terrorism," which Chrysalis clearly does. By another definition, "using violent acts which are intended to create fear," is terrorism. The Changeling army does this as well, as they need love, not fear, to survive, yet they run amok through the streets blasting buildings and causing ponies to run in terror.

Thus, they are definitely terrorists.

Argument 4: Same deal with Discord -- he's not evil. He was acting on his nature as an entity of chaos.

Rebuttal 4: Discord was also sapient and could have chosen alternative means to his own ends. You say that his targeting of the mane 6 made sense because they were his biggest threat? Guess what, that's not chaos, that is a deliberate choice to further a specific end. So it would seem he can choose to do something orderly and not chaotic, but only when it is in his best interest? This would be a double standard.

Discord is a textbook sociopath, but I guess maybe his popularity explains why sociopaths keep finding themselves in positions of power and so readily able to exploit the people subjected to them. Some faith in humanity, lost.

[ShorthoofScrawl]

I don't think the changelings are truly evil. They feed off of positive emotion, draining vital essence from their "victim", which we would of course see as evil, but they can hardly be faulted for it. Since we don't really see any changelings eat anything else, we can likely assume that their bodies require this emotional nourishment to live. All they were doing by attacking Canterlot was trying to gain a stable food source. Depending on how often they need to feed, a lot of the changelings that were expelled over the horizon by Shining Armor and Cadence may be in serious trouble if there aren't any ponies or other "loving" creatures around where they landed.

Not sure if I'm an apologist, per say, but I think there could possibly be a way for the ponies and changelings to live in peace with each other. I mean, all they need is love, right?