The Age-Old Question...

[ToothpasteThy]

Pirates or Ninjas?

[Lyipheoryia]

Ninjas.  Duh.

[ToothpasteThy]

Ninjas might be stealthy and skilled with a sharp stick, but how does that compare to having a massive boat sailing across the tropic seas with a shanty-singing crew? Canons! Swords! Guns! And best of all, legendary beards!

Pirates are obviously my pick owo

[CoffeeLand]

Sure pirates had guns and cannons, but you got to realize that they had about as much combat experience as random guys given weapons (especially since that's all pirates were). Ninjas on the other hand are arguably the most famous special forces in history. Not to mention ninjas are basically god-tier weapons and stealth experts.

[ToothpasteThy]

Sure pirates had guns and cannons, but you got to realize that they had about as much combat experience as random guys given weapons (especially since that's all pirates were). Ninjas on the other hand are arguably the most famous special forces in history. Not to mention ninjas are basically god-tier weapons and stealth experts.

Ninjas don't have legendary beards. Also, you cannot argue that there weren't very skilled pirates >:3

[CoffeeLand]

Obviously there were famous pirates, but those were only the captains who usually became famous for their pirating, not for their mastery of weapons. Also if we're going to talk about legendary beards then forget pirates and let's go straight to the vikings. 

[starswirlthebearded]

Sure pirates had guns and cannons, but you got to realize that they had about as much combat experience as random guys given weapons (especially since that's all pirates were). Ninjas on the other hand are arguably the most famous special forces in history. Not to mention ninjas are basically god-tier weapons and stealth experts.

Eh not really. In fact, I'd dare say you have it completely backwards.

It mostly depended on the pirate. Many were either privately trained to act as privateers. Others were renegades from the navy, and were expertly trained. Yes there were many whom were untrained with ships and big guns but those were not the rule honestly. There was a large influx of pirates after the Spanish armada disbanded as I recall... That was what gave rise to piracy in the Caribbean.  

Ninja on the other hand were ALL untrained [at least professionally]. They all had to develop their own style of fighting to just survive, however without the training and resources of the Samurai. Due to this they relied on blending in and concealable weapons to perform jobs. They would not dare fight a trained combatant. They'd have to rely on infiltration and subterfuge to do any real damage. People greatly overestimate ninja. They relied on reputation and smoke and mirrors to instill fear, rather than actual skill. This is of course before they had finished developing their unique fighting styles, mostly championed by the Iga and Koga clans. Then you had the formation of the Obiwaban which was an actual military trained group from the Japanese government. Pretty much one of the first spy organizations (and unsurprisingly most members were of Iga and Koga). 

Now as for who would win in a fight? Pirate. Unless it was a covert assassination, in which case the ninja would infiltrate and await an opportunity to take out their target. But in a 1-1 direct fight, the ninja don't stand a chance. A blunderbust would go off and the ninja would likely be fatally wounded. Then you have the larger more effective black powder bombs to the ninja smaller more directed bombs meant for misdirection. Honestly, Pirates are better armed and for the most part better trained with actual military training. Ninja aren't poorly trained, but it wasn't until after they had fully developed their weapons and fighting style that any formal training really commenced and they did not get military style training and support until the oniwaban. To think that straight out military trained people with scatter shot and direct shot weapons [guns] would lose because of stealth is silly on a one on one fight. The ninja would have to be in his element or undercover to win. 

[CoffeeLand]

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft, whatevs. 

[MidnightMask]

This argument does predicate on the assumption that pirates would be at their height fighting ninjas in their infancy. If a crew of pirates were to fight a band of ninjas (let's say roughly equal numbers), we have to take a moment to look at battlefield situations.

At Night- Ninjas got it. Their stealth is quite superior, and they definitely have more experience and training for a night time fight. Guns help, but shooting non-modern weapons at night are almost a crap shoot.
In the Day- Pirates have it, IF they can find the ninja. I'm not talking about just hiding, I also mean using disguises.

On a Boat- Pirates got it. Being on a boat means everything moves, and if you're not used to it, easily means stumbles you didn't mean to make, or if it's really choppy, sea sickness.
On Land- If it's ninja home terrain, they set up ambushes like nobody's business. If it's pirate turf (island), really no edge unless the ninjas have prep time.

Ultimately, it's an assassin vs. soldier scenario for the most part. In a straight up fight, ninjas would lose due to firearms. Minus firearms, it's pretty much even based on training and skill with sharp things. If it's a prolonged conflict, the ninjas ability to disappear and ambush over time will likely outweigh the pirates superior strength of arms.

That being said, I think I'll prefer ninja to pirate, because I'm introverted over extroverted. (( )>| -|

 

[starswirlthebearded]

This argument does predicate on the assumption that pirates would be at their height fighting ninjas in their infancy. If a crew of pirates were to fight a band of ninjas (let's say roughly equal numbers), we have to take a moment to look at battlefield situations.

At Night- Ninjas got it. Their stealth is quite superior, and they definitely have more experience and training for a night time fight. Guns help, but shooting non-modern weapons at night are almost a crap shoot.

In the Day- Pirates have it, IF they can find the ninja. I'm not talking about just hiding, I also mean using disguises.

On a Boat- Pirates got it. Being on a boat means everything moves, and if you're not used to it, easily means stumbles you didn't mean to make, or if it's really choppy, sea sickness.

On Land- If it's ninja home terrain, they set up ambushes like nobody's business. If it's pirate turf (island), really no edge unless the ninjas have prep time.

Ultimately, it's an assassin vs. soldier scenario for the most part. In a straight up fight, ninjas would lose due to firearms. Minus firearms, it's pretty much even based on training and skill with sharp things. If it's a prolonged conflict, the ninjas ability to disappear and ambush over time will likely outweigh the pirates superior strength of arms.

That being said, I think I'll prefer ninja to pirate, because I'm introverted over extroverted. (( )>| -|

 

Ninja and pirates both worked equally in the day as they did at night. The ninja whole black costume actually came from Kabuki theater, with those whom were dressed in black to not be seen for stage changes and 'special effects.' They did have stealth techniques but they were actually more similar to modern special forces or spies and didn't often depend on cover of darkness. You'd more likely find a ninja dressed as a farm worker or as a stable hand rather than sneaking around at night. They banked on inconspicuous, and really even in the dead of night, a black clad warrior is still pretty conspicuous. 

Also, not to mention, that pirates are historically are just as deadly, if not more so, at night than ninja. They developed their own techniques for dealing with night time raids and attacks on military ships (if necessary). And they would intentionally take out the lights of a ship to give themselves the advantage. That would disorient a ninja, since they depended on acclimating to the night for anything they did in order to see. 

Again, ninja would win in his element (wilderness or undercover) or if he was going an assassination. Once his advantage is broken (surprise) his weaponry and training doesn't match up to the pirate's. And pirates often employed the same tactics when they were able. The entirety of this debate depends on the fight in question. If the ninja have the element of surprise and can take out the crew in a timely manner, they win. If the opposite is true the pirates win. If it is simply a 1-1 (or direct crew v crew) the pirates win. Even at the peak of ninja, they didn't have a formal school until Iga and Koga formalized training (I'm not sure of the time line if it occurred during the peak or closer to the time of the oniwaban), and even then it was more of a style for killing than fighting. They never wished to directly engage samurai, seeking to distract than engage (because the Samurai superior weapons and training would destroy them), they tended to distract and escape (throw shuriken or egg bombs). This would be the situation of a battle between the ninja and pirate. 

When you say who would win in a fight, a fight is implied. The ninja don't stand a chance, they weren't fighters they were spies and assassins. Any guerilla warfare they did was sparse, taking down small platoons rather than going after armies, as they did not have the means to really face them. And in this case they'd have to again, go in beat their opponents and get out before any retaliation could be had. A small window of opportunity but one the ninja were rather adept at taking full advantage of.

As for removing guns, the ninja would probably win. While sword to sword the pirate would win (pirate cutlass is a fine weapon and the ninja don't have anything to really match it unless they stole a katana). The ninja's other tools however like the kusurigama, would make it hard for the pirate to triumph. Most of them were re-purposed farm tools and they have more distance weapons, which the pirates didn't have any (favored the gun after all). 

And again it is military training vs just specific training. Pirates were often military trained (naval) so they had legitimate training. Ninja did not have that luxury. Granted, Ninja trained since childhood honing the skills they were born into, so that might level it off. But quality of training is markedly different (again until formal schools which occurred close to their peak, peak it makes it more interesting but they still weren't training for fights like pirates would).

The entire debate hinges on specific conditions that no one seems to care to include. Each side, given certain conditions would win. I always assumed 1-1 open battle unless otherwise specified. In that case the pirate wins 10 times out of 10. 

[Noedig]

I'm gonna talk about this from a perspective point of view about ninjas and pirates.

 

Real ninjas begin from a young age till they retire of old age (And they could still train after retiring.), by eating odorless, bland nutrients, practicing excruciatingly with martial arts of stealth, weaponry, tools, disguise, and learning the logistics of tactics and strategies.

They live to sabotage, assassinate, and spy. It's a very dangerous, serious life-style, so virtually no one could become one because you need very precise, strict requirements and commitment to be one.

 

Real pirates begin at any age and live anywhere from land to sea. They make gangs and crews so that raiding, trading, and trafficking is more effective and less risky. Learning is not excruciating, but it is still required when you live the life on land or sea.

Most pirates would live for guilty pleasures and money, that's pretty much what they're all about.

Greed, adulterous lust, and tyrannical power is their drive. A raid is unpredictable, and can happen at anytime-- day or night.

They can live a very unhealthy life, being that they're normally alcoholic, drug-happy, and usually back-stabbing.

The pirate life has some fun, lots of wicked pleasures, but can be very uncomfortable.

 

Once again, I don't see this as a "who would win in a battle" sort of thing.

Personally, I'd rather not choose either of them. But if I had to choose, it would be a ninja.

Because ninjas have some honor, at least.

[BassClef]

When I see this title, I hear Rhett and Link in my head saying "Will it 'insert item here'?"

[BassClef]

But, pirates... Definitely...

[starswirlthebearded]

I'm gonna talk about this from a perspective point of view about ninjas and pirates.

 

Real ninjas begin from a young age till they retire of old age (And they could still train after retiring.), by eating odorless, bland nutrients, practicing excruciatingly with martial arts of stealth, weaponry, tools, disguise, and learning the logistics of tactics and strategies.

They live to sabotage, assassinate, and spy. It's a very dangerous, serious life-style, so virtually no one could become one because you need very precise, strict requirements and commitment to be one.

 

Real pirates begin at any age and live anywhere from land to sea. They make gangs and crews so that raiding, trading, and trafficking is more effective and less risky. Learning is not excruciating, but it is still required when you live the life on land or sea.

Most pirates would live for guilty pleasures and money, that's pretty much what they're all about.

Greed, adulterous lust, and tyrannical power is their drive. A raid is unpredictable, and can happen at anytime-- day or night.

They can live a very unhealthy life, being that they're normally alcoholic, drug-happy, and usually back-stabbing.

The pirate life has some fun, lots of wicked pleasures, but can be very uncomfortable.

 

Once again, I don't see this as a "who would win in a battle" sort of thing.

Personally, I'd rather not choose either of them. But if I had to choose, it would be a ninja.

Because ninjas have some honor, at least.

You do realize ninja became ninja because of a distinct LACK of honor right? That was literally their thing. They did the dishonorable jobs, the ones that samurai could not because of their code. Samurai is to ninja as Soldier is to NOC (I'd even go a step further to say merc). 

Basically they are both scoundrels. Ninja are cooler because they were essentially the first spies (but were really mercenaries). Pirates, well, they made their own title lol. 

Also, unlike ninja there are different types of pirates. Many were privateers.

If I was going by your ideals Noe, I too would go for ninja. Mainly because of their creativity and training discipline. Unless the pirate in question is the Dread Pirate Roberts, then I would of course have to choose the Dread Pirate Roberts.

[CoffeeLand]

What if this whole time the question was actually about Somalian pirates fighting ninjas and we just assumed it was the old kinds of pirates.

[starswirlthebearded]

What if this whole time the question was actually about Somalian pirates fighting ninjas and we just assumed it was the old kinds of pirates.

 

That isn't "age old" now is it?

[ToothpasteThy]

Wow. I've learned a heck of a lot today xD

Quite honestly, I was expecting people to be all like

Pirates, cuz blah blah blah.

Ninjas, cuz blah blah blah.

But instead it turned out to be

Pirates, because <insert Tommy Oliver sized educated rant>.

Ninjas, because <insert Tommy Oliver sized educated rant>.

Y'all are serious about your pirates and ninjas xD

What if this whole time the question was actually about Somalian pirates fighting ninjas and we just assumed it was the old kinds of pirates.

Either way works. My personal arguement from above was from the fictional pirates (cuz legendary beards), but if we were talking about actual legit groups of people, I'd agree with Noedig. Ninjas are at least respectable.

[CoffeeLand]

Well neither ninjas or pirates are particularly "age old" starswirl.

[ToothpasteThy]

Well neither ninjas or pirates are particularly "age old".

I called it the age-old question because these are the spam stables. I didn't expect anything serious. That didn't turn out to be the case xD

[Noedig]

Either way works. My personal arguement from above was from the fictional pirates (cuz legendary beards), but if we were talking about actual legit groups of people, I'd agree with Noedig. Ninjas are at least respectable.

Ah, that's the word I was looking for! Respectable.

[starswirlthebearded]

Well neither ninjas or pirates are particularly "age old" starswirl.

Uh, well lets see... the first recorded acts of piracy were in 14th Century BCE. Which is pretty darn old. But let us assume for a minute that we are talking about modern ideals of pirates... That is 8th Century CE. Still pretty old... Even the "Golden age of piracy" predates the founding of America...

But what of the fabled ninja?? Well that's a bit stickier, because ninja was a very specific title. The predecessor for the ninja date back as early as 3rd Century CE.  The actual ninja, as we know them now came about around the 13th or 14th Century CE. Still decently old, several centuries in fact! 

Regardless of those facts, depending on perspective, "age old" is rather ambiguous. One can argue original pirates and ninja are indeed age old (both having existed for many centuries) and each have reached legendary status in popular culture. Modern Somalian pirates have not. They are barely a decade old. In no definition can Somalian pirates be considered age old ever. 

Are privateers not respectable though? They acted on behests of governments, especially during times of war. Much like how the ninja often acted at the behest of feudal lords. They did the dirty work. I mean if you are talking about work ethic and discipline, then yes, ninja are more respectable, but I stand by my statement that if you look at both job descriptions they are both basically scoundrels. The counterparts (enemies) of each, the respectable ones, all had codes of ethics (Naval officers and servicemen and Samurai). 

Edit: PS I have done papers on the history of both of these things and enjoy having meaningful discussion. Especially since it is an unanswerable question.... too many variables... I always end up learning something new.

PPS Speaking of Tommy Oliver, I took a karate seminar lead by Jason David Frank. Cool guy.

[GregoryGriffon]

Pirates and Ninja would likely respect eachother. Both were people of the lower class who despised the rich, both had little respect for tradition or fair play, both were fairly crude and didn't much fit in wit polite society, and both lived with the realization that being caught for what they did would result in being executed.

In fact, there were a number of Ninja that became pirates. they took to the South Asia seas to raid Koreans. So in my mind, Ninja and Pirates would likely choos to work together.

[jnormaldude]

*insert Turning Japanese joke here*

[ShatteredCrown]

Pirates, was it ever a competition?

[jnormaldude]

Pirates, was it ever a competition?

Well it now is