S02EP21 - "Dragon Quest"

[ShaleCrow]

The show does kind of have the message "Femininity is awesome" but I think it's as a facet of one of the show's larger messages "There's more than one way of being girl, and all of them are valid." For example, the show never does anything that says, for example, Rarity and Fluttershy are better at being girls than Applejack and Rainbow Dash. It's one of the reasons I like this show.

But you should probably take everything I say about femininity/masculinity with a grain of salt, because I've never understood the whole idea that some things are feminine things and other things are masculine. I've pretty much always thought along the lines of "So, making fabric with large pointy things is feminine, but carving wood with equally pointy things is masculine. Is there actually any logical reason for that?"

I've also never particularly liked the feminist idea that women are equal because we're different. I'm of the philosophy that women are equal because, push comes to shove, we're the same. But I guess that's rebellious kindergartner talking.

I'm seconding the notion that Ginger Mint is almost impossible to disagree with, but I'm also adding Dessa to the list of people almost impossible to disagree with.

That's my very off-topic two cents anyway.

[Dessa]

I should clear up what I mean when I use the terms "masculine" and "feminine." When I say "masculine" I mean that which is associated with the male gender, and "feminine" with the female gender. I don't mean to suggest that these always match up, or that women are feminine by default and men masculine by default. It's simply the cultural associations prescribed to the genders.

[DashieInTheDark]

Finally got to watch the episode.

To begin, I'll form an opinion on an outside perspective of this episode.

My expectations were high for this one, because it was dealing with Dragons, Spike, and a migration. My initial thought process lead me to believe that it would involve a very long (5 minutes in show) journey, to some location where the dragons all meet. (Like the crater, but a "special mountain" or the like) I expected some Elder Dragon at the top of a mountain, that Spike was treading for so that he could, not only, learn his past, but get a sort of "Dragon wisdom" bestowed upon him. Whereupon, after making it to the top, he discovers the journey there taught him everything he needed to know. And Twilight asks if he is sure he doesn't want to confront the dragon. Where he turns down, and goes home.

That's ALONG THE LINES of what I was expecting / hoping for.

Now, your guys' posts about the "masculinity" and "adoption" is spot on, and I agree with you. I just, above all, don't like the execution involving the "teenage dragons". I mean, if the "parents" stepped in from above, at least once, maybe that would have helped me enjoy this more. I laughed out loud a few times though, and it was a good moral.

I've decided not to form an episode in my head for next week.

[Northern Lights]

I'm adopted, and while I appreciate the whole "you don't need to be a frat boy to be a boy" dynamic, I think I should cover the adoption part of the story, if only because far less people here will have any context for it.

Most stories about adopted children use it as a trope to have a quest for your 'true family' and, often, finding out about some secret that makes you special (Harry Potter and the Hercules movie are two examples). And that's all very well and good except the message it inevitably sends is that your real family is your biological one. Most of these stories end up with the child or teen staying with his 'deal's family.

This makes for great escapist tween dreck when your family is getting annoying and you want to imagine your alien/wizard/mermaid/devine parents will drop in any second to reveal an amazing ability you have and whisk you away to adventure. But for adopted children it denies the reality of your family and insists that they can't love you nor can you be happy with them.

I went through what Spike did. I don't look like any of my family and want to understand myself better. And I am so glad that Twilight was supportive of this. Yes, it looked like they might loose Spike but as his guardian, she wanted Spike to be happy.

I was glad the message at the end was supporting adopted families being a real and valid family. I was glad they emphasized that with little Pipsqueak. I am tired of adoptive parents being shown as either abusive or, at best, okay but never as good as the real thing.

I suspect Princess Celestia's letter was encouraging Spike on his quest but it might also have been saying where his egg was found. After all, I'm surprised they never asked her.

[DrMaxwell]

Also, there's an undertone of Nature vs Nurture. Chances are, if spike was raised with other dragons, he would be just like them.

As to why the adults didnt step in, they probably saw all of it as normal dragon behavior. After all, some of them looked up to watch the belching contest.

Also, Crackle<3

[DashieInTheDark]

Also, there's an undertone of Nature vs Nurture. Chances are, if spike was raised with other dragons, he would be just like them.

As to why the adults didnt step in, they probably saw all of it as normal dragon behavior. After all, some of them looked up to watch the belching contest.

Also, Crackle<3

I didn't mean "step in" as to "break up a fight" as much as have a relevant appearance in the episode. Maybe one of the Teenage dragons references to one of the adults as his father?

[Northern Lights]

Also, No Means No Shy is Best Shy *squee*

[elsporko]

Oh Good! I'm not the only one who thinks so (pity this episode didn't have a random Spike & Scootaloo duet)

Hmmm, Interesting point, I actually thought of it as being a bi-cultural/multi-cultural identity story; often when someone comes from one culture and grows up outside of it, for a while they won't give their genetic culture a thought but then will reach a point where they want to know everything they possibly can about it some even to the point that they become almost a stereo-type of that culture but eventualy they learn to balance all the cultures they belong to

And I think that part of the teenage Dragons' problem is a surplus of testosterone or whatever the Dragon evquivilent is, raging hormones mess up a brain like nopony's buisiness

Hmm, maybe Spike is part Pony, after all he was born from Unicorn Magic

While not adopted myself I work with troubled teenagers. There have been a few black or black and white mixed who despite growing up in our predominatrly white area by white families that adopted them have trouble knowing how to act because they are dark skinned and think they need to act that part. I remember one in paticular who always associated with his biological family and constantly tried to connect with them despite the fact that they wanted nothing to do with him while the adopted family went mostly ignored for a long time

[Rosewind]

Now that I've had a chance to sleep on it, I think I'll take a stab at the discussion du jour. I'm not saying "debate" because there's no real debate around this issue, since it's mostly about interpretation than anything else.

I don't think there's a parallel to any gender representation in this episode at all. It's an easy issue to fire the opinion cannons at, but I never got that message while watching this episode. What I did get is that Spike was given a hard time by the dragons because of his gentle nature, as he was raised by a gentle species. He'd have received the same reaction if he was brought up by an all-male society of pixie puffs or something. I should also point out that masculine and feminine terms exist in very basic things, such as language. Just look at French -- the same word can have a masculine and feminine pronunciation.

The message behind this episode was definitely complex. I do agree with the adoption and family acceptance elements (this was made very clear with the hatching of the egg at the end), but there was also an additional message about peer pressure and bullying. Most of the time Spike spent with his brethren was dealing with their peer pressure, which was not a result of him being overly effeminate or associated with ponies. I should also note that he seemed younger than the teenager dragons, and he received a very realistic response of a younger kid trying to hang out with a bunch of older teenagers.

A great episode. Merriweather definitely nailed this one. A really good take away message is a complex one that can mean many different things, as real life could only hope to be so binary with its problems.

[The-Jaded-Bug]

I'm adopted, and while I appreciate the whole "you don't need to be a frat boy to be a boy" dynamic, I think I should cover the adoption part of the story, if only because far less people here will have any context for it.

Most stories about adopted children use it as a trope to have a quest for your 'true family' and, often, finding out about some secret that makes you special (Harry Potter and the Hercules movie are two examples). And that's all very well and good except the message it inevitably sends is that your real family is your biological one. Most of these stories end up with the child or teen staying with his 'deal's family.

This makes for great escapist tween dreck when your family is getting annoying and you want to imagine your alien/wizard/mermaid/devine parents will drop in any second to reveal an amazing ability you have and whisk you away to adventure. But for adopted children it denies the reality of your family and insists that they can't love you nor can you be happy with them.

I went through what Spike did. I don't look like any of my family and want to understand myself better. And I am so glad that Twilight was supportive of this. Yes, it looked like they might loose Spike but as his guardian, she wanted Spike to be happy.

I was glad the message at the end was supporting adopted families being a real and valid family. I was glad they emphasized that with little Pipsqueak. I am tired of adoptive parents being shown as either abusive or, at best, okay but never as good as the real thing.

I suspect Princess Celestia's letter was encouraging Spike on his quest but it might also have been saying where his egg was found. After all, I'm surprised they never asked her.

^THIS. SO MUCH.

*ahem*

Being adopted myself, I'll admit that, at least at first, I had been a little dissapointed with the episode. Specifically, I didn't see any message beyond "Spike wats to know more about his dragon origins, but gains nothing out of it after running into the dragon equivalent of a group of fratboys" and felt as though the adoption message had been completely lost. But the more I thought about it, and the more I read about others' interpretation of the episode, I have more respect for the (now more complex) message that was being conveyed. I believe that my former oppinion was due to various things, the main one being that, still being a young 'un, I've yet to completely go through that stage where I come in contact with my biological origins, so maybe I was hoping for a different outcome for Spike that would give us, the viewers, more answers.

But I'm glad that you're the first one to have given some deeper insight on the adoptive perspective, and to be honest, you really hit the doornail there. The whole "adopted kid in a plain/boring family that goes on an epic journey to discover just how awesome they and their 'real' parents are" is especially overdone, even if it's a little better than the (dated) wicked stepmother trope (and when both tropes/literary devices are combined...let's just say that it becomes riddled with unfortunate implications). My likeing/respect has been earned for you plentyfold.

[Ashton]

Tl;DR, will make another post addressing other ppl's responces:

M thoughts:

Not one of my favorite episodes, but enough side-material I didnt hate it. This was one of the time it really reminded me it was aimed at kids, dealing with bullies and peer pressure. The episode's saving grace was Rainbow Dash and the references/callbacks. Personally I thought the plot was really bad, but if you discount that and go with all the gags, visuals, etc, it's still a decent episode for me.

Is it just me, or does it seem Tabitha must have a rather nice contract considering how much rarity appears this season? (either that or the character tested well with the target audience) I'm actually not complaining, I'm enjoying S2 rarity a lot more than S1, but it just seems to me that She's appearing in nearly every episode, unlike the other ponies.

That being said, opening and first couple scenes were great Fluttershy absolutely had me in stitches and D'awwwwing. She seems to have taken the assertiveness to heart too, it seems to me that S1 flutters would have gotten drug along despite it all (ala Dragonshy)

Anyone else watch the start of the 'Great Dragon Migration' and get a SERIOUS "Flight of Dragons" vibe? (80s movie)

RariSpike is [OFF] for this episode (if it's ever really been on outside of SomE) it's obvious she thinks of his as a little kid or possibly even a pet.

Cranky Doodle Cameo!

Pheonix portrayed WRONG WRONG WRONG! They were doing so well with playing mythology straight, then they fall into the "Lets have a SPECIES of Pheonix!" trap... (For those unfamiliar, The Pheonix was a single solitary female bird of flame who died and rose from it's ashes, there were not 2 and they did not reproduce, there was 1 and there would always be 1) Though I admit they were awesome, beautiful, and also cute at the same time.

Rainbow's Antics the whole time, loved it!

"They'll never beleive we're a dragon!" "...who's that?" "I think it's Krackle's Cousin" "oh, yeah, ok"

The pernultimate scene... The ponies were better off in the costume than outside it! lol

Dragons are Immune to Lava! (always been head-canon, now it's show-canon!) Now if we can just get a scene where an angry dragon causes water around him to start to boil....

Oh Geeze, even SPIKE has a pet now... maybe it will live longer than Tank (I know there's not reason to think tank died, but we've not seen him since 'best pet' and I doubt we ever will again, so...)

More upright/anthro dragons! I'd love to see spike's 'older' model be based on the lead bully!

[Ashton]

I think my main disappointment is that dragons are once again portrayed as jerks to everyone but themselves (and even then...).

I think that's just one example of RW racism/Eliteism that manifests in equestria. I get the feeling all the races kidna stick to themselves (Dragons, Griffens, and Ponies)

I didn't really answer any of my questions about dragons. Where were the land and water dragons?

This. I think I saw a couple land dragons there, but remember these dragons were FLYING to the crater, it's kidna hard to do that if your a land dragon or worse a water dragon. (Though in retrospect I'm a hair dissapointed Steven Magnet didn't make a cameo...)

it was really good how the ponys relationships towards spike span out across in this one, 10 /10 from kunio

This. Most ponies seem to ignore him (which is actually a good thing since the overall view is "dragons are big, mean, scary, monsters" yet they accept spike without hesitance) and it goes to show how the Mane 6 care about him, even the trench scene, which I saw less as mockery and more as friendly ribbing.

this was an ideal episode on my behalf, not exactly a big spike fan but it was very interesting to see him do some soul searching. it just goes to show you how the creators have every intention to create an actual show and not just a dry marketing campaing for little girls lol. definitely made up for last weeks lackluser episode

Not just a show but a world. As someone said, there was a lot of subtle lore woven in here. The goal, imo, is to create a great story, set in a believable world, with realistic characters and yet STILL make it appeal to all ages.

The resonance and chemistry between Twilight/Rarity/RD was surprising, refreshing, and done perfectly.

This, as I said before I've been enjoying Rarity a lot more this season. I think the relationships are really working well.

[ZephyrBurst]

I really didn't like this episode that much outside of the thing with Fluttershy at the beginning, Twilight letting Spike go, and the overall moral. The way it all played out just turned me off. While I wasn't looking for fully fleshed out characters, I was hoping for a bit more than the standard 2D cartoon bully that the dragons portrayed. This show is better than that. Though the dragons did play their part for the moral. I think I was mostly disappointed that we didn't learn anything about dragons. At least the didn't blatantly say "All dragons are bad."

After reading Dessa's first post though, I've come to like the episode more. I still don't care for the way it played out or the stereotypical cartoon bully trope that was used.

Pheonix portrayed WRONG WRONG WRONG! They were doing so well with playing mythology straight, then they fall into the "Lets have a SPECIES of Pheonix!" trap... (For those unfamiliar, The Pheonix was a single solitary female bird of flame who died and rose from it's ashes, there were not 2 and they did not reproduce, there was 1 and there would always be 1) Though I admit they were awesome, beautiful, and also cute at the same time.

They've done that for pretty much everything from mythology that's made it into the show. It only makes sense to keep it consistent and have the Phoenix its own species as well.

[tacobob]

Pheonix portrayed WRONG WRONG WRONG! They were doing so well with playing mythology straight, then they fall into the "Lets have a SPECIES of Pheonix!" trap... (For those unfamiliar, The Pheonix was a single solitary female bird of flame who died and rose from it's ashes, there were not 2 and they did not reproduce, there was 1 and there would always be 1) Though I admit they were awesome, beautiful, and also cute at the same time.

Eh. It's Mythology, so it's open for interpretation. Just like in the myths, you had just one minotaur, while in fantasy (From World Of Warcraft, D&D, etc), you got entire species. Even in the Harry Potter series, Pheonixes were a species of magical birds. Not just one.

[SilverSwirl]

Having thought about the episode, my brain cross connected with Mother 3 and the segment of the story where Duster doesn't remember who he is and thinks that he is the bassist Lucky of the DCMC until He reunites with Lucas and co. Granted, that was more along the lines of amnesia but he still discovers who he really is in the end and the DCMC support him in his decision to leave with Lucas

[Ashton]

Eh. It's Mythology, so it's open for interpretation. Just like in the myths, you had just one minotaur, while in fantasy (From World Of Warcraft, D&D, etc), you got entire species. Even in the Harry Potter series, Pheonixes were a species of magical birds. Not just one.

for some reason the others dont really bother me, maybe it's the logistics of having an eternal race that keeps on breeding (will eventually destroy all other races on the planet and the live a desolate life)

The other one that bugs me is when I see a 'race' of Cerberus's/hellhounds, thankfully FiM didnt fall into that hole.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

In classical mythology, Pegasus was a single individual, born from Poseidon and Medusa. But that didn't stop them from making a whole bunch of pegasi in Friendship is Magic, and I don't see anyone complaining about that.

And really, most mythology doesn't have a single definitive version. Phoenixes in particular were pretty common in ancient mythology, having legends all the way from India to Egypt (where they're thought to have originated, being based off of a real species of heron that actually existed, and was thought to have magic powers in much the same way that people in some parts of the world think that tigers have magical powers.)

Some ancient Egyptian myths state that the bird was alternatively the soul of Ra, a creature that burst out of Osiris' heart. In other myths, it is a companion to the Sun god, such as in greek or hindu mythology. (In the latter, the phoenix was male and sired six offspring.)

The fifth century Greek historian Herodotus referred to phoenixes as a flock of birds that visited Egypt in 500 year intervals, and claimed not to believe the myth that the birds carried remains of their parents to Heliopolis to be buried.

[Ashton]

In classical mythology, Pegasus was a single individual, born from Poseidon and Medusa. But that didn't stop them from making a whole bunch of pegasi in Friendship is Magic, and I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Well, they could have made do with 1 Pegasus, just as long as she was Rainbow Dash! lol (...ok... I couldn't kill off fluttershy, she'd have to stay too...) and I knew the original was from Poseidon but didn't know it was was also born of Medusa!

And really, most mythology doesn't have a single definitive version. Phoenixes in particular were pretty common in ancient mythology, having legends all the way from India to Egypt (where they're thought to have originated, being based off of a real species of heron that actually existed, and was thought to have magic powers in much the same way that people in some parts of the world think that tigers have magical powers.)

Some ancient Egyptian myths state that the bird was alternatively the soul of Ra, a creature that burst out of Osiris' heart. In other myths, it is a companion to the Sun god, such as in greek or hindu mythology. (In the latter, the phoenix was male and sired six offspring.)

The fifth century Greek historian Herodotus referred to phoenixes as a flock of birds that visited Egypt in 500 year intervals, and claimed not to believe the myth that the birds carried remains of their parents to Heliopolis to be buried.

Ooooooo Hadn't heard about it being the soul of Ra, that could be useful tidbit to tuck away for a future story or campaign... thanks for the history lesson, love hearing alternate mythologies (though it always amuses me that all these radically different cultures can develop the same symbols/creatures/etc even if the meaning is radically different)

[Rosewind]

Ash, let's go watch the butterfly migration!

[Ashton]

Ash, let's go watch the butterfly migration!

-image snip-

lol, poor rainbow, though given context of the past episodes, I'm seriously surprised she doesn't have one eye skyward to watch, though she has to pretend she hates it... maybe I'm over-analyzing her... maybe dash really isn't as deep and complex as I thought...

[Tenkan]

I thought the episode did Spike justice and more!

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

We don't really know when that picture was taken. Rainbow Dash may very well been interested in the butterfly migration for a little while, but after an hour or two? Maybe not so much.

[AgileFlourish]

I wasen't able to watch this before sunday afternoon, wich meant that i would hear a lot of feedback all saturday night.

It scared me that people were only giving it an average of 6/10.

But boy, did it blow my expectations

I like spike, and even though people dont consider him a part of the "Main" cast, i still see him as the "Dragon-Pony"

The Episode were nice, and gave some good D'aaawww momemts

(and it also opened up for some Snoopy fan art )

[shreddedpegasus]

Was an interesting episode. Enjoyed it none the less though.

The Krackle's cousin part was pretty killer, laughed more than I'd like to admit.

[AgileFlourish]

Ash, let's go watch the butterfly migration!

I wanna watch butterfly migration too!