Feelings for Discord?

[weesh]

Since evil is a subjective term...

Whether Discord is evil or not is opinion...

This may be where I am missing the boat. I emphatically disagree with both of these points. And yet I can see how someone who believes that can say that he isn't evil. If you get to decide what evil means, then you can choose a definition that excluded Discord.

I reject that "evil" is subjective. A person who abducts a child is evil even if everyone except the parents and the kid feel differently.

The term is clearly defined. How can it be a matter of opinion?

[CobaltFlare]

Reading all the various analyses on Discord and his personality. A strange head canon formed for a crossover fic/episode. An episode where, Porky Minch phase distorts into Equestria and meets Discord. They hit it off and join forces, causing havoc and disorder through subtle psychology and outright magical power.

THIS.

[SilverSwirl]

I am gonna throw my hat into the ring again. Alright, to understand my comparison, you must at least have a basic knowledge of the plot of Mother 3 in regards to the Big Bad, Porky. Porky, who in Earthbound, managed to phase distort and escape after the fall of Giegue, has visited every time period and seen everything, at the cost of his soul and the ability to age. Now, he turns the Nowhere Islands upside down out of sheer boredom. He views the world as his own toy chest as he still has the mind of a child but it's been twisted into madness. And by this logic, I view Discords actions as equal to Porky's in Mother 3.

Yeah, that made absolutely no sense but cut me some slack as I am pulling this out of my flank.

[Angie Cakes]

mm, as a character in a show, I love discord.

if he were real, I'd hate him

if he wasn't so evil, I'd want to be friends with him :^l seems like a cool guy, if it weren't for the whole "Imma make you all miserable, lol"

I dunno, no strong opinions on this subject :\

[Rosewind]

This may be where I am missing the boat. I emphatically disagree with both of these points. And yet I can see how someone who believes that can say that he isn't evil. If you get to decide what evil means, then you can choose a definition that excluded Discord.

I reject that "evil" is subjective. A person who abducts a child is evil even if everyone except the parents and the kid feel differently.

The term is clearly defined. How can it be a matter of opinion?

Evil isn't a binary term that you can just apply to something and say "Yeah, that's evil, it's now labelled as evil and it may no longer be considered anything else." I've noticed with many of the antagonists we've seen, they have some sort of motivation or reasoning for the way they're acting (often for multiple reasons), and they're not evil to the extent of "just because." Flim and Flam tried to take Sweet Apple Acres, certainly causing the Apple family misery and distress. Were they evil? The Hydra in Foggy Bottom Bog went after the ponies because they were in its territory. They were intruding in its natural habitat and it was reacting the way its nature intended. Was the Hydra evil?

I'm actually quite pleased that the antagonistic characters we've seen so far are complex enough to debate over this. I think the biggest issue is that we have to understand that not everything is black or white, good or evil, harmony or dissonance. Discord proved that by encouraging the Mane Six to fall to their inner weaknesses, and he had his own motivations for doing so, shrouded as they might have been to us.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

Discord to me seems kind of like the Phantom from Phantom of the Opera. He lashes out at the rest of the world because somewhere in his younger days, he was rejected and hurt by everyone he came in contact with. It's hard for him to understand what he's putting everyone else through, because pain/suffering is the only life he himself knows.

[featherquill]

Discord to me seems kind of like the Phantom from Phantom of the Opera. He lashes out at the rest of the world because somewhere in his younger days, he was rejected and hurt by everyone he came in contact with. It's hard for him to understand what he's putting everyone else through, because pain/suffering is the only life he himself knows.

I like this analogy, but as a huge Phantom of the Opera nerd I have to point out that Erik was portrayed as a character who was past redemption because he gave in to his dark side and committed such terrible evils that forgiveness was beyond him.

Actually, I could see Discord as sort of the same. He's evil, and definitely likeable, but he's never going to be 'good'.

[FlimFlam]

If I might interject here, I just don't think enough about Discord's past is known to classify him as good or evil. Is he just doing the same thing he did before he was defeated, or was he just acting even more evil because he was banished? I for one would be pretty angry if someone turned me to stone for a couple dozen years.

[DrMaxwell]

Im gonna throw my two bits in and say that discord is evil. As Ginger said, anyone who messes with an others thoughts against their will is evil, especially for selfish purposes like discord's. As to him being an element of chaos needed to balance the harmony in the world, chaos and order were happening on their own, balancing the world without discord's help. But when he came along, he overwhelmed order and unbalanced harmony.

[OccupyEquestria]

This may be where I am missing the boat. I emphatically disagree with both of these points. And yet I can see how someone who believes that can say that he isn't evil. If you get to decide what evil means, then you can choose a definition that excluded Discord.

I reject that "evil" is subjective. A person who abducts a child is evil even if everyone except the parents and the kid feel differently.

The term is clearly defined. How can it be a matter of opinion?

You just answered your own question. Evil stems from morality and morality is subjective. My moral values (or lack there of) are not the same as your moral values. You postulate that it is still evil when a person abducts a child even if the parents and society do not think it evil, but you fail to realize that this is evil to you. Western societies consider women not covering up to be an expression of sexual freedom. Many middle eastern societies consider women not covering up to increasing sexualization of women. You do not get to decide which is morally "right" or "wrong" because morallity is subjective. When murder is acceptable is subjective. Whether having chocolate rain instead of water is "evil" or "good" is subjective. Evil is subjective because what is evil is opinion.

Also I rather dislike the Phantom comparison. Phantom was the cause of the actions of others. Discord is a SPIRIT that embodies a specific trait. He is by the very nature what he is. This makes him exceptionally different from the Phantom of the Opera.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

If I might interject here, I just don't think enough about Discord's past is known to classify him as good or evil. Is he just doing the same thing he did before he was defeated, or was he just acting even more evil because he was banished? I for one would be pretty angry if someone turned me to stone for a couple dozen years.

Or, y'know, over 1000.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

For the sake of argument, I'll assume that Discord wasn't a rational being and wasn't able to distinguish or choose alternative actions that limited the suffering of others. I am still personally quite thrilled that Small Pox is locked away in a secure vault, hopefully forever. People don't need random suffering in order to appreciate life and experience happiness.

Morality may be complex, and there are definitely differences of opinion on various matters, but that is not the same thing as saying it is totally a matter of opinion. It does not follow that because some differences of opinion exist, that it must be entirely made up out of thin air. Saying that if it is not 100% objective, then it must be 100% subjective is a fallacy of false dichotomy.

The Golden Rule, for example, is one of the root principles of morality world wide. It also has a real, physical basis in our brain chemistry. ^[1]

Having no other alternative mitigates the moral consequences of self preservation, in a Plank of Carneades sort of way, which is also widely applied to the natural world. (Not being wrong, but in many cases far from ideal.) It is still possible to apply a sort of categorical imperative to even animal behavior, when non-rational animals act in ways that ultimately lead to their extinction, which occasionally happens to do destruction of habitat when a system of checks breaks down.

[1] Pfaff, Donald. The Neuroscience of Fair Play

[starswirlthebearded]

You just answered your own question. Evil stems from morality and morality is subjective. My moral values (or lack there of) are not the same as your moral values. You postulate that it is still evil when a person abducts a child even if the parents and society do not think it evil, but you fail to realize that this is evil to you. Western societies consider women not covering up to be an expression of sexual freedom. Many middle eastern societies consider women not covering up to increasing sexualization of women. You do not get to decide which is morally "right" or "wrong" because morallity is subjective. When murder is acceptable is subjective. Whether having chocolate rain instead of water is "evil" or "good" is subjective. Evil is subjective because what is evil is opinion.

Also I rather dislike the Phantom comparison. Phantom was the cause of the actions of others. Discord is a SPIRIT that embodies a specific trait. He is by the very nature what he is. This makes him exceptionally different from the Phantom of the Opera.

That explanation totally reminded my of Steve Hughes bit on offence. But yes, morality is highly subjective, and a lot of it stems from what the society, group, and personal upbringing of the person viewing interprets as moral. *Some* (can't blanket statement) Christians think it is amoral to be homosexual. Now I'm not saying all of morality is subjective, a lot of it is fairly uniform. But it certainly isn't black and white as some purport.

@Ginger: To say that a creature whom refers to himself as "Discord, Spirit of chaos and disharmony" is evil for being what he is, is not right. It is his inherent nature. He cannot be anything else other than a bringer of chaos and disharmony, it is his inherent nature. That is his task in life, that is all he is, the essence of chaos and disharmony in physical form. If he had a choice in the matter I may agree with him being evil, but that isn't the case. Would you say Dionysus is a drunk and a bum because he is the embodiment of wine and the party? Or Aphrodite a slut because she is the embodiment of love and desire? And naturally ERIS because she embodies STRIFE AND DISCORD as evil? No, because that is their purpose, that is all they are, it is them. It is not good or evil for them, it is who they are. What they may do may seem immoral, but they are the spirit of those traits, they are not like normal people, and should not be treated as thus.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Starswirl, as I said. Even when I accept for the sake of argument that some entity can be not to blame for its inherent nature. I'm still glad Small Pox is on ice. I'm thrilled that Polio is on the same track. Even if you don't want to apply the label of evil, I can still argue that Equestria would be measurably better off for its inhabitants with Discord gone. He took the world that the Equestrians had worked together to build and twisted it to suit his own selfish desires.

Compared to his own standards of conduct, encasing Discord in stone is no less severe an action than what he did to everyone else.

[TheBeatlesPkmnFan42]

Discord is my secondish thirdish favorite character. I WANT TO MEET JOHN DELANCI SO BAD! To bad I can't go to Bronycon. Ever.

[Dessa]

The idea that that something can't be evil because its nature is to be evil doesn't make any sense at all. DO we say that Satan is not evil because its in his nature to be so? We don't, and the reason why we don't is because Satan represents the very idea of evil. Discord is a fundamentally negative element. Not only is Discord evil, but he is representative of a form of evil. He is evil in its purest, most distilled form.

[DrMaxwell]

Even if discord's inherent nature is spreading discord, and he cannot do anything else, from ours, and the ponies viewpoint, he is evil. He can spread discord in some other place, away from ponies, but the moment he uses his power to disassemble their society, he is performing acts of evil. As for the references about the greek gods and their inherent natures, by the morals and standards of today's society, yes, they would be a drunk, a slut, and evil respectively. But that is by todays standards. The greeks had different morals and views, their gods and ideals(one and the same, really) do not apply here. Aside from magic and magic creatures, pony culture is mostly based off a mishmash of today's human culture.

This is such a lovely debate.

Edited March 21, 2012 by DrMaxwell

[OccupyEquestria]

Dessa brings up a wonderful point.

We consider Satan evil because:

From a purely biblical standpoint, I find Lucifer to be far more good of a character than God. God epitomizes all that is Orwellian with a need to control so high that he must harm his most faithful subjects for fear that they do not love him as much as they profess to. On the other hand the evil of Lucifer is biblically only depicted as disobeying god and removing man from the "utopia" of perpetually praising god's existence.

So once again I smash the morality of the moral-sayers! Your evil is my good! Your good is my evil!

[starswirlthebearded]

The idea that that something can't be evil because its nature is to be evil doesn't make any sense at all. DO we say that Satan is not evil because its in his nature to be so? We don't, and the reason why we don't is because Satan represents the very idea of evil. Discord is a fundamentally negative element. Not only is Discord evil, but he is representative of a form of evil. He is evil in its purest, most distilled form.

Satan is the embodiment of evil, that is all Satan does is corrupt people to do wrong. Discord may be negative, but it certainly not evil. Therefore Discord as a character is not evil. No pony did anything explicitly morally wrong while under Discord's influence. And Discord himself only made the world in chaos. Chaos is not evil, neither is disharmony. They are natural occurrences, and at no point can they be considered evil, unless evil acts are performed in times of chaos or disharmony. Again, this isn't a black and white issue. Really, no pony died, and no pony was actually hurt by Discord, he made the world chaotic, and yes, some ponies were miserable, but again that is his task to bring chaos, and chaos in and of itself is not evil. Am I saying he was good for Equestria? Not at all, I don't think anyone is arguing that. He was an antagonist aiming to reshape Equestria into a chaotic world that would not be appreciated by most ponies. But chaos happens in Equestria even without Discord pulling at the strings, just in smaller scales. Unless you think Twilight's charm and causing mass hysteria was not chaotic... If chaos is evil, than Twilight's efforts in Lesson Zero made her evil as well. Her freak out brought undue chaos upon Ponyville. And yet she is not evil, and her actions are not seen as evil, despite the chaos and disharmony she brought (unless you think fighting over a doll is not disharmony).

[DrMaxwell]

Just because you arent evil doesnt mean you cannot perform evil acts. Yes, what twilight did with the doll can be considered an act of evil, but for her to be evil, she would have to have had the intentions of causing that sort of chaos. Mistakes can lead to morally wrong outcomes, but that does not make the mistakee evil. Discord went about his evil acts with full intention, and full expectations of what the outcome would be. He traumatized equestria and her citizens, simply because it was in his nature to do so. In a way, Discord is a form of satan, corrupting and controlling people to suit his selfish desires and agendas. Following that logic, Discord is inherently evil.

But remember, those who are evil do not think themselves evil.

(Wow, this is what I get for debating and playing skyrim at the same time, I forget what this post was originally when I edited it. )

Edited March 21, 2012 by DrMaxwell

[Rosewind]

[starswirlthebearded]

Just because you arent evil doesnt mean you cannot perform evil acts. Yes, what twilight did with the doll can be considered an act of evil, but for her to be evil, she would have to have had the intentions of causing that sort of chaos. Mistakes can lead to morally wrong outcomes, but that does not make the mistakee evil. Discord went about his evil acts with full intention, and full expectations of what the outcome would be. He traumatized equestria and her citizens, simply because it was in his nature to do so. In a way, Discord is a form of satan, corrupting and controlling people to suit his selfish desires and agendas. Following that logic, Discord is inherently evil.

But remember, those who are evil do not think themselves evil.

(Wow, this is what I get for debating and playing skyrim at the same time, I forget what this post was originally when I edited it. )

So then... Yes, by your definition Twilight was evil towards the end of that episode. Her intent was fully to create discord. "If I can't FIND a friendship problem, I'm going to MAKE a friendship problem." Yeah, that just SCREAMS good intentions. Her bewitching the doll was so that there would be disharmony between the CMC so that she could solve the problem, and in doing so she created complete and utter chaos for all of Ponyville. And her intentions were fully selfish as it was so that she would have a letter to write to Princess Celestia. She knew what she was doing.

[DrMaxwell]

From that viewpoint, yes, twilight was acting evil. But that was also partly due to overwhelming stress. She isnt inherently evil, had she not been in full on panic mode, she would never have done it. Discord was completely lucid the entire time, and was actually enjoying himself.

[USAFBrony]

For some reason I have a feeling that Discord and Celestia were best friends before he went all like chaos and stuff.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

People tend to over emphasize the influence other people's inherent qualities have on those people's actions, while simultaneously emphasizing external excuses for their own actions. (Fundamental Attribution Error) Discord was a particularly interesting character in part because his actions were so heavily influenced by his own inherent qualities, rather than being a response to external causes. He really is the spirit of Chaos and Disharmony.

Twilight's use of desire magic and the CMC's use of a love poison were also both very wrong things to do. And while it doesn't fully excuse what they did, the former was driven by panic and stress while the latter can probably claim youthful inexperience. Discord, on the other hand, did what he did intentionally in a pre-meditated fashion with full understanding of his actions, and was a habitual offender.

Not necessarily a bad character, but definitely a bad apple.