Doubts about Season 2

[teygrim]

I know I havn't posted here in a long while but I've been really feeling down after watching the latest episode (lesson zero) and I was wondering if anyone else is starting to have doubts about Season 2. I don't think it's a bad episode but I was cringing throughout. I think this episode was all about the laughs where earlier episodes were more about people. It worries me to see such exaggerated dipiction of the characters I have grown to love and it depresses me to think that this is the future for FiM.

I'll try to explain through example. Take Rarity, for instance. At first, I like many other viewer saw her as the annoying, fashion-obsessed, drama queen, but as I watched the first season I came to realise that she was much more than that. I watched learned of her ambitions and watched her struggle and triumph. I soon realised that I had stereotyped her and the show taught me a lesson without having to say a word. All of that went out the window with Episode 3. Rarity IS the annoying drama queen I had stereotyped her to be. All for the sake of a gag, Rarity screams and catastaphises the most insignificant of inconveniences.

Then there's the story structure. In Season 1 there was a build up before the climax. In Season 2 (well Episode 3 at least) things are ridiculously over the top from start to finish. Remember in "Party of One" when Pinkie Pie began to notice her friend's evasive behaviour and began to grow suspicous and eventually paranoid. When she jumped to the conclusion that her friend's don't like her anymore and had Spike confirm it, it felt natural that she would crack. Here Twilight is plain nuts right out of the gate. I know it kind of makes sense because she is so neurotic, but in Season 1 she always kept her cool until she got backed into a corner. When she found out that Fluttershy had kidnapped Celestia's phoenix she formulated a plan immediately and, when the guards came to the door, she improvised.

Again, I don't think that the writers gave the character enough credit but more importantly, I think they wrote themselves into a corner from the get go. I don't think Twilight should have been catastrophising at the start of the episode because it doesn't give the writers anywhere to go. The worst case scenario can't be topped so I don't think you should begin with it.

Everything was just so over the top and the characters were reduced to "cartoons" of their former selves. What I mean by "cartoon" is that they took a single trait of each character and exagerated it to a ridiculous degree. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just a completely different show. Like I said before, this is a show about laughs and not about the characters.

I know that a lot of people like this new season so far, and I don't think for a second that my differing tastes are some how supperior to everyone elses. I just want to know if anyone else has similar misgivings. I'll always be greatful to the creators for Season 1 but it hurts to find out that the show I loved so much might have turned into something that I can't enjoy.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

Episode 4 will have Luna, and it will be glorious.

But seriously, if you're having doubts, just give it time.

[FIM Fan]

Yeah, just give it a little time. All episodes can't be as good as the others. With every cartoon there are gonna be one or a few episodes that probably aren't as cunning and good as the others. Wait till episode 4. I for one loved episode 3 maybe because I'm really into comedy.

[teygrim]

But seriously, if you're having doubts, just give it time.

I will, but I worry that the change is because of Faust's reduced role in the series. All the same elements are in the episode but the way they are put together is just SO different. It just feels like new people are working from Lauren's notes and creating an entirely new show. If this is the case then no amount of time will change things because Lauren is not coming back.

Yeah, just give it a little time. All episodes can't be as good as the others. With every cartoon there are gonna be one or a few episodes that probably aren't as cunning and good as the others. Wait till episode 4. I for one loved episode 3 maybe because I'm really into comedy.

Like I said, it's not a bad episode, it's just different. Too different for me because they've left out the reason why I watched the show in the first place: the characters. I loved the show because the characters were believable and relatable, but in this episode they were just goofy and funny. I worry that this may be the new status quo for the rest of the series but I hope, for my sake, that I'm wrong.

[Tenkan]

I see your point, Teygrim, and I do agree that the recent episode was slightly bizarre to some degree, but I don't feel like the whole Season will be written along the same line or theme. I felt like this episode was actually pretty necessary. Every now and then, I believe, the cast and crew of the show wanna work on an easy going episode that's fun to watch and everyone gets a laugh at. I don't feel like they've thrown the characters out the window or anything, or have taken any risks.

I have the same concerns as you do, though. It is possible for a show to lose its touch in quality as more episodes get released, and that's usually because the writers would start to lose their spirit and forget their motives on why they worked so well on writing the story and characters in the first place. But I do not believe such a thing would happen to this show. I hope not, anyway.

In any case, I hope one episode won't dismay you to an extent where you stop watching the show! There's still a whole season ahead of us!

[teygrim]

... I felt like this episode was actually pretty necessary. Every now and then, I believe, the cast and crew of the show wanna work on an easy going episode that's fun to watch and everyone gets a laugh at...

I guess that makes sense. Maybe the animators just wanted to go wild and the writers let them do what they want. That would explain the unnecessary sonic rainboom and why Twilight started to teleport every two seconds after not teleporting at all for the past twenty-four episodes. I hope you're right.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

I will, but I worry that the change is because of Faust's reduced role in the series. All the same elements are in the episode but the way they are put together is just SO different. It just feels like new people are working from Lauren's notes and creating an entirely new show. If this is the case then no amount of time will change things because Lauren is not coming back.

Actually, by the time Faust left, she'd done everything for season 2 that she was supposed to. So, whether or not she was on the team during animation and such, to my knowledge all the scripts were finalized when she took her leave. So her part is STILL there. She isn't there to give one-on-one direction, but remember, these are still the same people who created season 1 with Faust by their side. They know what they're doing.

[teygrim]

Actually, by the time Faust left, she'd done everything for season 2 that she was supposed to. So, whether or not she was on the team during animation and such, to my knowledge all the scripts were finalized when she took her leave. So her part is STILL there. She isn't there to give one-on-one direction, but remember, these are still the same people who created season 1 with Faust by their side. They know what they're doing.

That's kind of what I meant. I could see her work in there but the final product felt like someone elses. Think of a movie that is based on a book. The movie can be very different to the book and the authors intentions but it is undeniably based on the authors work. That's what this episode felt like to me, and that is why it has caused me so much concern. I can't help but feel like this episode would have been subtly but significantly (to me at least) different to what we got if Faust was as involved as she was in Season 1.

PS. I don't really know the ins and outs of the studio's functioning so Faust may well be as involved with this episode as she was with every other. This is all based on rumour but my concerns still stand.

[Acynder]

Even then Faust is still in the show. She's just a consulting producer. And its not just her that makes the show good. It's the rest of the team. Though i certainly agree that lasts episode was...strange.

[flutterscotch]

It was pretty much just like the Ticket Master in regards to trying to incorporate everypony at once.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

If the entire episode had been along the lines of the second half, I'd be sharing your concerns, but the first half at least wasn't over the top at all. It wasn't until Twilight decided to try to make a problem that it really went off the deep end.

As far as I'm concerned, it is a futile effort to try to deduce who or what is the cause of any given part of the show. You're bound to find patterns in things that don't exist, make false assumptions, and generally achieve an unrealistic frame of reference. Instead, I suggest looking at the results -the actual episodes that you can actually see with your own eyes- and base your judgments off of those.

When you look at Season 1, there were several episodes that were a lot like this one.

• A Bird in the Hoof, which was generally regarded as being not very strong, and by comparison it looks like they learned from a lot of their mistakes in Lesson Zero.

- The imagined stakes: Banished and locked in a dungeon.

- The real stakes: slightly disappointing Princess Celestia.

• Sonic Rainboom, generally regarded as one of the best. Rainbow Dash freaks out, Rarity acts largely as a foil.

- The imagined stakes: Banished to the Everfree Forest (again)

- The real stakes: Rarity almost dies.

• A Party of One, generally regarded as one of the best as well. Pinkie Pie freaks out, most characters only get brief appearances.

- The imagined stakes: Pinkie Pie losing all her friends.

- The real stakes: Double booking two parties.

Those three are clearly very different from say, Look Before you Sleep, where the only thing really at stake is the success of Twilight's slumber party, or Green Isn't your Color, where the only thing really at stake is liking a new job or not.

If the whole season ends up being super high tension, high stakes, ponies going crazy, I'll be a bit disappointed, but I'm not going to count my scootaloo's before they hatch. I remember wondering if Season 1 was going downhill after sitting through Staremaster and Showstoppers for a couple of weeks, but then Dog and Pony show and Green Isn't your Color proved those fears were unwarranted.

[teygrim]

It was pretty much just like the Ticket Master in regards to trying to incorporate everypony at once.

I don't know about that. I think the focus was clearly on Twilight. It's just that she was written in such a way that made her so unrelatable that you're inevitably more empathetic with everyone else. As an aside, Ticket Master was one of my favorte episodes. I think it was genius the way they outlined everyone's distinct personality through the way the characters tried to convince Twilight to give them the ticket.

hi hi

If the entire episode had been along the lines of the second half, I'd be sharing your concerns, but the first half at least wasn't over the top at all. It wasn't until Twilight decided to try to make a problem that it really went off the deep end.

As far as I'm concerned, it is a futile effort to try to deduce who or what is the cause of any given part of the show. You're bound to find patterns in things that don't exist, make false assumptions, and generally achieve an unrealistic frame of reference. Instead, I suggest looking at the results -the actual episodes that you can actually see with your own eyes- and base your judgments off of those.

When you look at Season 1, there were several episodes that were a lot like this one.

• A Bird in the Hoof, which was generally regarded as being not very strong, and by comparison it looks like they learned from a lot of their mistakes in Lesson Zero.

- The imagined stakes: Banished and locked in a dungeon.

- The real stakes: slightly disappointing Princess Celestia.

• Sonic Rainboom, generally regarded as one of the best. Rainbow Dash freaks out, Rarity acts largely as a foil.

- The imagined stakes: Banished to the Everfree Forest (again)

- The real stakes: Rarity almost dies.

• A Party of One, generally regarded as one of the best as well. Pinkie Pie freaks out, most characters only get brief appearances.

- The imagined stakes: Pinkie Pie losing all her friends.

- The real stakes: Double booking two parties.

Those three are clearly very different from say, Look Before you Sleep, where the only thing really at stake is the success of Twilight's slumber party, or Green Isn't your Color, where the only thing really at stake is liking a new job or not.

If the whole season ends up being super high tension, high stakes, ponies going crazy, I'll be a bit disappointed, but I'm not going to count my scootaloo's before they hatch. I remember wondering if Season 1 was going downhill after sitting through Staremaster and Showstoppers for a couple of weeks, but then Dog and Pony show and Green Isn't your Color proved those fears were unwarranted.

You have a point. I guess my real problem was not so much the over-the-top-ness of the episode but more the extreme oversimplification of Twilight and Rarity. Twilight was alway neurotic but here, she is so neurotic that she is completely unrelatable from start to finish. I can relate to someone who likes to be organised, I can relate to someone who is a perfectionist. I can't relate to someone who writes a list to write a list to write a list and I can't relate to someone who evens out the icing on cupcakes until there is no icing left AND doesn't see anything wrong with what she had done (why didn't she just ask Mrs Cake to take away the 13th cupcake, it would make much more sense if she just wanted to divide the cupcakes evenly among her and her friends). My point is that, instead of being a flawed "human" that has been pushed to breaking point, she is just a generic crazy person from the start. I know it doesn't make much difference to most people who watch this show, and it might sound like nitpicking but, for me, it is the difference between watchable and unwatchable.

[lordbrony]

You have a point. I guess my real problem was not so much the over-the-top-ness of the episode but more the extreme oversimplification of Twilight and Rarity. Twilight was alway neurotic but here, she is so neurotic that she is completely unrelatable from start to finish. I can relate to someone who likes to be organised, I can relate to someone who is a perfectionist. I can't relate to someone who writes a list to write a list to write a list and I can't relate to someone who evens out the icing on cupcakes until there is no icing left AND doesn't see anything wrong with what she had done (why didn't she just ask Mrs Cake to take away the 13th cupcake, it would make much more sense if she just wanted to divide the cupcakes evenly among her and her friends). My point is that, instead of being a flawed "human" that has been pushed to breaking point, she is just a generic crazy person from the start. I know it doesn't make much difference to most people who watch this show, and it might sound like nitpicking but, for me, it is the difference between watchable and unwatchable.

I think the main problem is that the time for character development is past and now they are using the Simpsons/Family Guy style of putting their characters is zany situations and going on autopilot, along with throwing a lot of exaggerating into the mix

[kal413]

I, myself, was more worried about season 2 from the first episode than the last two. That one just distorted everything beyond belief and I do agree that this one is not as developed as it could have been. But from the structural perspective, I feel like it was necessary.

Not every episode is supposed to be incredibly plot-driven and deep, this is still a show for families, not cine-junkies. So it would make sense for them to provide a little comic relief, to transition into the new season. I thought that it still had some characterisation, regardless of whether it was the focus. If anything, you learn about Twilight's neurotic behaviour, but also of the lengths she's willing to go to achieve academic perfection.

Another thing was that Pony Kindergarten. She had to have had some bad experiences with that in her past. As for the other characters, it shows Celestia's true benevolence as she understands Twilight and basically forgives her. The others learn that helping a friend with a seemingly unimportant problem is essential, even after initial dismissal. There's a lot more, but that would be going off on a tangent and kind of too specific.

I also agree with Ginger Mint that this is not the first of its kind. I mean, Bird in the Hoof, Twilight was being completely unreasonable without any basis. The only reason it wasn't more evident was because it revolved around Fluttershy. Swarm of the Century also showed how nit-picky she is, especially when it comes to Princess Celestia. She also used mind-control magic in that one. Granted the problem was more evident, the way that she handles it is essentially the same. Especially with Feeling Pinkie Keen. That's another time when she's so obsessed with something that she won't let it go, almost to the point of death. She wasn't really pushed to a breaking point either. She just starts being narrow-minded and accepting only what she believes in.

Because of those reasons is why I think those are my least favourite episodes yet. I hope there's no others that fall lower.

[kal413]

I think the main problem is that the time for character development is past and now they are using the Simpsons/Family Guy style of putting their characters is zany situations and going on autopilot, along with throwing a lot of exaggerating into the mix

I really hope that's not true.

There's still so much we don't know about them.

Their back stories, for example.

[lordbrony]

I really hope that's not true. There's still so much we don't know about them. Their back stories, for example.

well we pretty much know their personalities so a backstory is just reverse engineering that to me. take my RP app for Cheerilee for example, I just reverse engineered a story based on two things: "nuturing" and "loves children"

one thing about what you and teygrim mentioned stands out: In the eps you quoted, Twi is fussy, nitpicky and mildly OCD. That's fine since it makes her a flawed but believable character

but in S2EP3 she's just plain neurotic, paranoid and crazy

exaggerate much MLP writers??

[RarityDash]

Really, I think the trigger is what's important in explaining this one. In this case, the trigger being that it's Princess Celestia Twilight will be disappointing if she doesn't get her letter in.

Twilight is show to have a bottomless respect for, devotion to and perhaps even obsession with, Princess Celestia. As Best Night Ever shows, nothing makes her more delighted than the very simple act of just talking to the princess. She always wants everything to be perfect for Celestia. And there is nothing more terrifying to her than the thought of letting the Princess down in any way. I don't know if she's actually afraid of Celestia and what she's capable or, or just that in her head the idea of letting Celestia down is a crime worthy of the very worst sorts of punishments, but either way it's clearly the one thing that gets under Twilight's skin more than anything else.

Bird in the Hoof already established this. The idea that somepony would mess with Celestia's pet causes her to freak out and suggest that Celestia would react extremely. This is the same as that, except it's even worse for her. She's not Fluttershy's accomplice. It's her and her alone that will be disappointing Celestia if she doesn't get her letter in on time. For that reason, it's so much worse for her and her growing fear and paranoia just explode out to new heights.

I think it's actually fairly plausible and in character with what we've seen from Twilight in season one. If Twilight starts to freak out like this over things that don't involve Celestia, then I think we have problems. For now, I am nothing but optimistic about what I've seen so far this season.

[Motion Paradox]

As everyone else has said, I think it's a bit early to worry about this being a bad season though I understand your concerns. But yes, I think it be alright, don't forget there were some more comedy centered episodes in the first season too, not to mention with Lauren Faust stepping back a bit everyone is getting used to the changes and the new jobs they have to do. I think that with everyone trying to get used to the changes they decided to start with an easier, more comedy focused episode and it will balance out a bit more within the next few episodes, especially since the descriptions for some are very promising. To be honest I didn't really expect it to be as in depth as some of the other episodes when I read the description, but as Kal413 said it did have a nice bit of character development for Twilight.

We've seen how Twilight's usual logical thought process end up falling by the way side when she's under too much stress, even in her story from Cutie Mark Cronicles we see that there are certain situations that she dosen't handle well and this episode really showed how bad her anxiety can be at times. As for your comment about Rarity and her Melodrama couch, it's not the first time she's over reacted like that (namely during the description of the Everfree Forest in episode 9), but looking at the descriptions on Equestria Daily, episode 5 seems very promising

[Willow Whisper]

I was surprised by the episode, but I can't say I was disappointed with it. Twilight is as bound to freak out once or twice as every pony is. Crazy her was indeed crazy, but the result of her desire spell gone wild was thoroughly entertaining. As other posters have said, its way too early to bring in the doom and gloom.

[teygrim]

@kal423

This is harder to explain than I thought it would be. My problem was not with the theme of the episode or anything in the episode itself. My problem was with how the characters were portrayed. As I said before, they were reduced to their most basic elements and exaggerated into cartoons of themselves. Instead of Twilight being character who is a nerd she is just a nerd. I feel they have removed her identity and replaced it with a stereotype. Twilight may have been a nerd, but never to the extent dipicted in the most recent episode. Here it is literally a disorder.

one thing about what you and teygrim mentioned stands out: In the eps you quoted, Twi is fussy, nitpicky and mildly OCD. That's fine since it makes her a flawed but believable character

but in S2EP3 she's just plain neurotic, paranoid and crazy

exaggerate much MLP writers??

Thankyou, that is exactly what I'm talking about.

Twilight is show to have a bottomless respect for, devotion to and perhaps even obsession with, Princess Celestia. As Best Night Ever shows, nothing makes her more delighted than the very simple act of just talking to the princess. She always wants everything to be perfect for Celestia. And there is nothing more terrifying to her than the thought of letting the Princess down in any way...

Now that would have made better conflict. I wish they let Twilight worry about this, a real and understandable concern, instead of a silly and comedic imaginary concern.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I dunno. I thought her conversation with herself in the puddle was extremely moving. I've felt like that on numerous occasions, trying to bolster my own confidence in the face of nagging doubt. And the part where she's trying to convince her friends and they wont listen to her, that part reminded me of the time I tried to plead with my dad that I wasn't ready to take my drivers test. He didn't listen and I failed it, and was pretty devastated by it too. It was a particularly sharp failure.

The part where she tries to make a problem, eh, it wasn't great. But I didn't think it was bad. I don't know what I'd have done differently.

[Hippo]

I would definitely paraphrase an agreement with most of all that has been said. But since the episodes that try to include all of the characters have less time to give the character the right amount of exposure, it can come off as less moving. Episodes that focus on one or two characters allow for a story that has more diverse parts of those characters' personalities. And oversimplifications of characters happen all the time when they are part of someone else's storyline. I think when characters become a small part of an episode, the writers have to make sure that the one or two minutes they get fully reflect that character's primary trait. When that character gets a full 20 minutes, the writers are allow to introduce different angles.

And in my opinion, Lesson Zero had a lot more similarities with season one episodes than I was expecting. If they threw this episode with season 1 (minus the obvious remastering of the theme) I don't think we would have really noticed.

[brianblackberry]

I felt this wasn't one of the stronger episodes even though it appears to be well received by the fandom in general. Of course a few of the episodes in Season One were pretty weak, such as Stare Master and Owls well that Ends Well; especially that latter one, which is the one episode I actually disliked because it took the opportunity to explore Spike's character and relation to Twilight and instead opted to make him a one-dimensional character who was just jealous.

Twilight's OCD in itself as an idea didn't bug me, just it seemed she went a bit too off the wall, even though I did enjoy the exaggerated animation that went along with it. As the OP pointed out, what really disappointed me was Rarity's actions in the episode. Sure she is a drama queen and shallow about appearances much of the time, but she also has the deep and generous personality. I didn't see any of that, just the drama queen whine about every little thing, much more so then in any previous episode. (Where in Suited For Success it was totally appropriate for her character to be so over-dramatic after the fashion show disaster, but now over the missing ribbons? She didn't panic like that when she ran out of gems in Dog and Pony Show). After making such great leaps in character in Suited For Success, Dog and Pony Show, and Green Isn't Your Color, it was just grating to me to see her so stereotypically shallow here (well except the couch on the grass part, that was actually funny).

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I think Rarity's various "Worst! Possible! Things!" were put in there as a subtle triple moral to support the "Take your friends seriously," theme. She's essentially performing a re-interpretation of "The Boy who Cried Wolf," which is also about being taken seriously. (It also gave Twilight the opportunity to help a friend, even if she didn't think it was important.) And anyway, does no-one else have friends who exaggerate things when they're in friendly company?

Soooooo (with apologies in advance)

On an Early Saturday morning when the sun was coming uuuuup

A new episode was airing, but I was stuck down in a ruuuut

I thought: Oh my! What's happened?

to the show I know and love

But Grannie Pie said:

That wasn't the way to deal with change at all

She said Pinkie just step out of your shoes

keep an open miiind

You'll see diversity

truly is the spice of life

just watch and see something thats new

Soooo

Giggle at the slap stick

Guffaw at parody

Tear up at the drama

D'awww it up with the friendship

Cackle at irony

Holdyourbreath with the suspense

andtellthatlittlevoiceinsideyourheadthat

ifyoucanenjoyashowaboutdresses

thatthereisaworldofpossiblitiesoutthere

thatyou'veneverevenimagined

andtheveryideathatsomeshow

shoulddothesamethingoverandover

just makes me want to... laugh!

[RarityDash]

Hmm... I actually was rather amused by how Rarity was portrayed in this episode, and I'm a big fan of her character. I found her scenes hilarious. Her and the scarf got almost as big a laugh out of me as Fluttershy and the bear.

I really don't think that scene is as bad as people say. Rarity is very dramatic by nature, demands perfection in what she produces, and works what is shown to be a rather demanding, often stressful job. It comes as no surprise to me that she might crack and have an over-dramatic fit or outburst on occasion when she suddenly finds that something just isn't where it should be in her head. It probably happens a lot actually, just there isn't usually a Twilight Sparkle around to rush to her aide. I mean, she does freak out excessively, but then she takes the time to actually find what is missing and then continues her work like nothing happened. Seems like it could happen frequently. It was exceedingly silly, but it hardly destroyed her character for me.

As for her "The worst possible thing" thing, she says after the last one "I really mean it this time." That tells me that she's at least on some level aware that she's being over dramatic and silly the other times. She's just purposely exaggerating things, especially in the second utterance of it. That she does "really mean it" that last time, also shows the concern and fondness for her friends that is so key to why we all like her character, considering that comes when she believes Twilight might be taken away.

It doesn't do wonderful things for her character like the actual Rarity episodes do, but I think this episode did a more than decent job getting some laughs out of her character, at least for me, and none of it seems too far out of place.