The Uncanny Valley of Pony

[Rosewind]

Hello everypony! I'm Rosewind. You might know me as that crazy gal that likes to jump on you with her opinions about My Little Pony and net culture, but I am making this thread tonight to highlight --and perhaps bring some higher thought -- into the internal thought processes at work that really help perpetuate the awesomeness of FiM, and the community as a whole.

A lot of what makes the show popular is undoubtedly the amazing character design. While it might be easy to discuss why G4 is so much better to some of us than the past three generations of character design, I think it's more important to understand why.

First, watch this. Seriously, watch it. If anything, just watch the first 1:30 so you can understand what exactly the Uncanny Valley is, and why it's important to understand how it affects the way we think.

My theory is that this paradigm doesn't apply to just things that look human. What if, perhaps, this also applies to how we view ponies? Or anything, for that matter? I think G3 in particular tried too hard to move the cutesy horse model into creepy territory, so we ended up with stuff like this:

The more you try to make something look like something it shouldn't be, the more disturbing it is, and the higher chance that we may dislike it. In contrast, the character design in FiM is much more dynamic, and it does not try to emulate the ponies as real ponies. Add rich, layered personalities to the mix, and I think we end up with quite a few likable characters.

I don't believe that this alone is the only thing making the series popular. It's one more dynamic working in synergy with other things. So, I'm throwing this question out to all of you: what do you find attractive about FiM over the older generations, and why?

[Angie Cakes]

that was a great video :^D

I've never heard of the uncanny valley, but I've definitely had that thought more than once in the past.

FiM ponies really don't look like ponies at all. they look more like... I dunno... creatures, but not ponies. sometimes I think they look almost more like cats XD people have mistaken some of my pony drawings for cats in the past.

I'm a huge fan of the art style in FiM. I love the solid lines and the lack of shading. it's always been a style that I like. the more simplistic something is, the more I tend to be drawn to it.

I dunno what else to say, but I feel like there's more on my mind

[Starfox64x]

Very interesting topic.. Never heard of the 'uncanny valley' but i've had thought similar to it...

For example, Teddy bears... Rather that on the left being 'unrealistic' and the right being 'completely realistic', you have Human characteristics on one end, and animal characteristics on the other. There's a certain sweet spot where you have human like arms, human facial expressions, but you still have the fuzziness and ears and nose of a bear, giving it a charming quality. but then when you try making a teddy bear more realistic you get to the valley, and it looks REALLY creepy... and of course, continuing on, you have the real bear...

I've also noticed this in the furry community... If you don't care for furry conversation, skip the next paragraph...

At 10%, you have something with very little animal qualities, but it's human characteristics make it a bit more likeable. then you get to the 50% and it looks adorable (If you like that sort of thing) where it have a nice mixture of animal and human. Then you have the 70%... It just looks a little... off... kinda odd... And then you get to 100% and it's all fine cause you're at the other end of the valley...

So those are my thoughts about it before i even knew what it was! hehe...

So about ponies... I think it's more about making the horse look like adults VS babies... The older gen ponies have huge eyes, head, and tiny tiny bodies, like babies do... but it's just WAY too disproportional. the hooves are HUGE and the limbs are tiny while attached to a chubby torso... Ihey just took the syalizing too far... I'm imagining it more like a mountain looking graph than a valley...

On the left you have the older ponies, with their extremely styalized look, you have G4 ponies in the center, with just enough styalization but still proportioned well, and on the right you have a... well... horse... On the left they just look creepy and i dont find it appealing. on the right i dont find the horse itself appealing. but in the middle there's just a nice balance, with just enough cuteness and just enough realism. they have big eyes and cute expressions,but their body still resembles a horse enough to be able to tell what it is. plus there are enough human characteristics to make them appealing to look at.

If i have to use the 'uncanny valley' graph, i'd say that G1-3 ponies are on the far right (way too styalized), g4 is at the crest of the left side of the valley (Just enough realism), the Skyrim Pony mod is at the bottom of the valley...

(Jesus Christ! too much realism!)

And REAL horses on the far end of the valley... So the older ponies dont really apply to the valley to me, they're just at the far FAR end of the graph. They weren't trying to make them look like REAL horses, it was just SO styalized that you could hardly tell what it was. They were like the robot arm in the example the video showed, they dont look anything like Ponies AT ALL... they're just... there, i suppose... i dunno, that's just my thoughts on it.

(OOC: Do you ever feel like you ramble on about a topic you've thought up that only vaguely resembles the original question presented to you?)

[Rosewind]

Starfox, you are a super hero. What a wonderful bunch of points you've brought up and expanded upon -- this is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see.

[MyLittlePonyTales]

The It's time to play...VS G4 topic may shed some light.

Other than that:

G1:

G4:

One was made in the 80's, one was made in 2010. Comparably, anything from 2000's > 80's. There's just better technology... MORE technology. G1 just can't compete. Basically, G4 is more attractive for the simple reason that it's more advanced... as is everything compared to 20-30 yeras ago.

[Angie Cakes]

while on the topic of creepy ponies, I have to say I've seen these two shots a LOT, but I personally think they're two of the creepiest shots of FiM. the eyes are just... so HUGE D: they look like they're all squished up on the inside in order for them to fit in their heads

[Starfox64x]

Starfox, you are a super hero. What a wonderful bunch of points you've brought up and expanded upon -- this is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see.

I'm glad i could help =3 Although most of my comments against old ponies was based off of the toy you had up there, i hadnt even thought of the OOOOOLLLLLD version Tales' brought up...

With that, yeah, i can see that version being in the valley... Too realistic or too styalized, depending on what you want. you COULD go more realistic and have a show about realistic horses... or you could go more styalized and get... well, g4... so yeah, there i can see the Valley much more clearly...

One was made in the 80's, one was made in 2010. Comparably, anything from 2000's > 80's. There's just better technology... MORE technology. G1 just can't compete. Basically, G4 is more attractive for the simple reason that it's more advanced... as is everything compared to 20-30 yeras ago.

You make a good point... Like how the old transformers cartoon doesn't look NEARLY as cool as the new transformers' movies (although that's just the 'looks'... content is debatable *cough*) But even with that, i still think the newer version just has a more appealing look to it. If you were to draw the old style of ponies with today's tech, i would probably still find g4 more appealing to look at. it's not like with transformers you just add more detail and eventually get an awesome looking car thing...

Although with Transformers, i've noticed that the newer version has human looking lips and mouth movements, as opposed to the older mechanical looking mouth... and it looks like it might be dipping into the valley where the robots are getting too human... Hmmm... y'know i think i'm going to have to explore this valley concept a bit more now... i'm intrigued...

[Starfox64x]

while on the topic of creepy ponies, I have to say I've seen these two shots a LOT, but I personally think they're two of the creepiest shots of FiM. the eyes are just... so HUGE D: they look like they're all squished up on the inside in order for them to fit in their heads

hm, you got a point... Although i have two points with those pics...

the first pic i think is more from Hasbro's marketing division and not from the animators themselves... if you look at the pics from the recent toy boxes, even those dont look quite right... i think it's just the marketing divisions version of the shows characters...

Pinkie just doesnt look... quite right in the picture... again, i think the marketing department is meddling with thigns they shouldn't be involved in....

as for the second picture, i think during that scene her eyes bulge for a split second as she's rambling, and this is the crest of the bulge... it's kinda like during that one scene during the running of the leaves when RD is talking to Twilight and she inhales deeply, making here eyes shrink immensely and giving her a 'dur' look.

So it's less of a style issue and more of a 'Hey look what happens when i pause the video at the right time' thing...

(EDIT) about the Rarity pic. I took a look at the first episode, it wasn't a freeze frame like i thought, but she was staring off into space imagining Canterlot... So i say it was just her giving a wide eyes expression that may have gone a bit too far...

[MyLittlePonyTales]

I think this picture from the upcoming episode puts all the creepy FiM screencaps to SHAME:

[Angie Cakes]

words and stuffs

yeah, the first one is used for marketing stuffs. all the pictures on toy boxes look really strange celestia is missing her bangs on some boxes and it makes her look really scary. my problem is that when I usually see these two pictures, it's in the context of "look how cute these ponies are", meanwhile I can barely look at these two specific shots without feeling a bit creeped out ._.

[Angie Cakes]

I think this picture from the upcoming episode puts all the creepy FiM screencaps to SHAME:

what are you talking about? it's beautiful XD

[Starfox64x]

yeah, the first one is used for marketing stuffs. all the pictures on toy boxes look really strange celestia is missing her bangs on some boxes and it makes her look really scary. my problem is that when I usually see these two pictures, it's in the context of "look how cute these ponies are", meanwhile I can barely look at these two specific shots without feeling a bit creeped out ._.

I know exactly what you mean... there are points in the show (like the theme song) where i just say "Whoa, this is just too cute for me to stand," and i skip it... The majority of the show has a great balance, but those bits... are just too cute and not enough cool... i think we should try and find/make a screenshot of the show that showcases the cool factor more than the adorable factor... although that's another topic for another day...

[MyLittlePonyTales]

i think we should try and find/make a screenshot of the show that showcases the cool factor more than the adorable factor...

[Bronynumber299]

Okay I was rummaging through my sisters "Pony box" and found a older toy it was bulky ugly and a bit creepy but the FIM toys are sleek and arent that bulky but cute and have way less detail thank god. But this isnt just about the toys for we all know that some FIM toys arent excate but the show has better quality and they do look more like creatures. Real horses and ponys seem just (sorry) ugly but FIM characters are more yes catlike and stuff just less horsey. Thats why I have to always correct myself even though I know what Im talking about I always have to say I like my little pony..........Freindship is magic or mlp fim. Now its kinda like a habid now although the older show had humans.Ive never watched it but ive seen pictures.But the world of equestria seems like a far off land that you hope is real and want to go threre yea. I like the ponies in mlp fim more than real ponies because cartoon ponies have much more to say then niegh.

[Rosewind]

I've done some thinking about this, and here's my current take:

G1-G3:

1. The characters are designed to sell toys. They have shallow, undeveloped personalities, and the writing isn't interesting.

2. The central message in every episode isn't skillfully integrated, and is seldom relatable to an older audience.

3. The characters look odd (bringing in that Uncanny Valley argument).

G4:

1. The characters are all different, but still relatable to us in different ways. We all have a bit of the Mane Six in us.

2. The message behind every episode is still relevant (maybe even more so) to the older crowd, as well as children -- but it's not in our faces.

3. The artwork, fluidity, and love put into the production is self-evident. Everything about it is fun, colorful, and interesting to look at.

[Lux]

I did not watch much of the G1-G3 series. But from what I did watch I didn't like much of it. I didn't like the blandness of the ponies' personalities, the fact that humans were integrated, the unclever songs, etc.

What I like about MLP now is as follows

Characters have their own distinct personalities while still being able to integrate with each other.

A great plot that has many slice of life fun but still links together

Great design of the ponies. (They may fall into the Uncanny Valley as they aren't exactly drawn to be cartoony ponies ala G1-G3 or anthro like characters, but in a world made up entirely of them it makes it believable. It would be like a cartoon where all the characters are animals. You believe it because the world is filled of them.)

Songs that are fun but not annoying

Voice acting (This gives life to a character and adds to the personality)

Consistantly good episodes (sure we have our favorites, but I can't say I watched one that was really bad)

Great messages that kids and adults can take away.

[SeiyaMeteorite]

Looking at this discussion of G1 and G4; I'm sorry, but come on.

 

G1 looks pretty good from what I've glimpsed at, just as great as G4. The animation and art aren't that bad; they look fine to me, not odd, and the stories look pretty darn good, even if it was designed to sell toys. The characters did have good personalities too; Firefly, who was Lauren Faust's favorite ponies and one of the ones she originally was going to use but then had Rainbow Dash, was a daredevil, for example. And I love the songs "Dancing on Air" and "Call Upon the Sea Ponies" from there!

One more thing I want to say is if it weren't for G1, then G4 wouldn't exist today. We wouldn't have our Mane Six. G1 is the inspiration for G4, it's not one of the worst things ever made.

 

From what I've seen on the Internet, there are just as a good amount/a lot of fans of G4 who love G1 as well.

[Noedig]

You, necromancer, have committed an unholy act!

Blasphemy!

This is sacrilege!

You raised a 3-year dead topic back to LIFE!

POWER OF CELESTIA COMPEL YOU!

[SeiyaMeteorite]

I just wanted to state my opinion, and didn't realize how old this was at first. Sorry.

 

Nice music though.

[Noedig]

I just wanted to state my opinion, and didn't realize how old this was at first. Sorry.

I was only kidding around! Don't worry! lol

And thank you!

[RainbowDarlingDash]

Alright, I'm going to add my two jangles into this thread, darlings, as it is relevant to my interests. So the question was 'What did I did more attractive about FiM than in older generations?'. Past tense because this only applies to the earlier era of the show.

 

1. Friendship is Magic seemed to be an almost nice balance point between the fantasy adventures of G1 and Slice of Life theme of G3 or Tales. I'm saying almost since the adventure parts were skewed because of the Deus Ex Machina.

 

2. Friendship is Magic knew the balance between dark and cute at their representative times. Again, it wasn't as dark as early G1, where death threats and fighting for survival was common thing in each DVD, and it wasn't as sweet and innocent as early G3's uplifting and lighthearted stories.

 

3. Because of point 2. and more screen-time, the conflict had a scale just enough to bring out all sides of certain characters more easily than as in previous generations.

 

4. Friendship is Magic was following the life of a relatable character as she was learning useful lessons, summing them up in morals in the end of each episode.

 

All in all, my point out of all generations is this:

 

My Little Pony 'n Friends (G1) - The darkest

My Little Pony Tales (G1.5) - The most realistic

My Little Pony (Pre Core7 G3) - The cute and clever

My Little Pony (Core7, G3.5) - The cute but stupid

My Little Pony: Newborn Cuties - The Hellspawn ^{_{(as much as I am a fan of older generations, I'm no way of defending this)}}

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (Pre-S3) - The Jack of all trades, master of none.

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (Post-S3) - The Sellout

 

However, I could list what I prefered in previous generations over FiM just as easily... especially if it's the later seasons.

 

 

As for the Uncanney Valley part,

 

1. There was that part in Tales where they made lemonade, but it turned out so sour that when Teddy drunk it, his mouth shut so firm it had to be pried open by Ace and Lancer. The result was infamous for being borderline nightmare fuel.

 

2. In a Very Minty Christmas, during Minty lamenting over ruining Christmas, the animators tried something new with transitioning (or someone else animated, I don't know) Minty's face when she was turning around, resulting in some very, very disturbing front shots.

 

3. Newborn Cuties... the whole thing! They are talking but their mouth doesn't even move.

[SeiyaMeteorite]

You're welcome.

 

I'm starting to get into this franchise, and I happen to find both generations very interesting.

 

@RainbowDarlingDash

 

Interesting points, but I think G4's starting to become a bit more mature now, starting with its season 5 premiere.

 

I never knew G1 was dark like that at first, but I don't mind that, probably because I'm starting to get into darker shows like Saint Seiya (which interestingly came out in the same year My Little Pony the Movie came out, and animators from Toei Animation, which made Saint Seiya, worked on it, that kinda is part of a reason why my username is as it is, I've thought of my own Seiya MLP OC). For some characters personalities though, especially ones who only appeared once, I think you have to read the books and cards that the toys came with. But G1 could tell morals too; I've read one book that is pretty much a slice of life story called The Magic Rainbow, where three G1 ponies Firefly (pegasus, also inspiration for G4 Rainbow Dash), Blossom (earth pony) and Moondancer (unicorn) see a magic rainbow and all three wish their own wishes (Firefly wishes it would be more windy and Moondancer that it would be dark because she likes the night), but they end up finding out that wishing selfishly is not a good thing. I do like both adventure and slice of life, but I think I prefer adventure a bit more.

 

Looking at those screenshots there, I actually find that shot with Teddy, Lancer and Ace... Tales looks decent to me though.

 

But that shot with Minty...

 

And I love how you called Newborn Cuties "hellspawn". Pretty much that's what it is. Go!Animate has way better animation than that....THING has.