S02EP21 - "Dragon Quest"

[Ashton]

We don't really know when that picture was taken. Rainbow Dash may very well been interested in the butterfly migration for a little while, but after an hour or two? Maybe not so much.

heh that really makes me smile to think about.

[LadyLoona42]

As always, it really was a great episode! Although, like most I feel a little disappointed on how it didn't really reveal any information on Spike like why doesn't he have wings? Or is that something he'll develop later on in his growth cycle? It would've been really cool if they gave some more information on the Dragons themselves like why do they migrate to that one spot?

As for the thing about the Phoenix, in the episode with Phylamina(sp?), Princess Celestia did mention that it was an incredibly rare sort of bird, right? Well, she didn't say that Phylamina was one-of-a-kind now did she? Besides, if Phylamina was really an immortal bird and the only Phoenix in existance, would she really spend her time being a pony's pet?

[starswirlthebearded]

As always, it really was a great episode! Although, like most I feel a little disappointed on how it didn't really reveal any information on Spike like why doesn't he have wings? Or is that something he'll develop later on in his growth cycle? It would've been really cool if they gave some more information on the Dragons themselves like why do they migrate to that one spot?

As for the thing about the Phoenix, in the episode with Phylamina(sp?), Princess Celestia did mention that it was an incredibly rare sort of bird, right? Well, she didn't say that Phylamina was one-of-a-kind now did she? Besides, if Phylamina was really an immortal bird and the only Phoenix in existance, would she really spend her time being a pony's pet?

I'm going to say that Equestrian Dragons are like Dragons of Middle Earth. Not all of them are the same. Spike is a wingless dragon, nothing more. Winged dragons are probably more common and the more dominant species. But that does not mean that there aren't a smaller amount of wingless dragons somewhere around Equestria. Lets face it... Wings give an advantage in the hunt. However, it could be possible that wingless dragons have an affinity for magic and winged do not. Which could suggest separate species like in the pony population. Faust said that the Princess specifically chose a dragon egg for Twi's test. It could be that she chose it from the rarer breed of wingless, magically gifted, dragons, as opposed to the magicless and winged. Spike may just not be as talented as the Princess hoped or is a late bloomer in dragon magic, and can only perform the letter sending magic at this time. But it is possible that Spike could develop other magic down the line.

As for Spike having a Phoenix... I'm going to go out on a limb and say it will probably be shared responsibility between him and Twilight. Spike will be the primary care giver, but Twi will support him. Kind of like a kid's first pet. So I think, in reality, it will be more like a "family" pet than Spike's personal pet. That is if it survives to see another episode >_>.

[Amarillys]

Finally got to watch the episode.

To begin, I'll form an opinion on an outside perspective of this episode.

My expectations were high for this one, because it was dealing with Dragons, Spike, and a migration. My initial thought process lead me to believe that it would involve a very long (5 minutes in show) journey, to some location where the dragons all meet. (Like the crater, but a "special mountain" or the like) I expected some Elder Dragon at the top of a mountain, that Spike was treading for so that he could, not only, learn his past, but get a sort of "Dragon wisdom" bestowed upon him. Whereupon, after making it to the top, he discovers the journey there taught him everything he needed to know. And Twilight asks if he is sure he doesn't want to confront the dragon. Where he turns down, and goes home.

That's ALONG THE LINES of what I was expecting / hoping for.

Now, your guys' posts about the "masculinity" and "adoption" is spot on, and I agree with you. I just, above all, don't like the execution involving the "teenage dragons". I mean, if the "parents" stepped in from above, at least once, maybe that would have helped me enjoy this more. I laughed out loud a few times though, and it was a good moral.

I've decided not to form an episode in my head for next week.

^ All of my agreement.

I was expecting something more.............adventury? I was a little disappointed at first that Spike dint get to go on an epic adventure to find out how awesome his biological parents are but after reading Northernlight's post I'm sorta glad that the episode ended the way it did. I'm still not happy with the episode over all though. (I got a reference for my teenage dragon OC at least. Also, Crackle )

But there's some serious fridge horror in this episode, some episodes where hinting towards it but this one confirmed it:

The only possible way for a dragon to physically age is for it to mentally age as well, and the only way for him to mentally age is to become corrupted with greed. So if Spike doesn't turn into a monster he's going to stay mentally and physically as a child FOREVER.

(Yes, I was upset they dint portray dragons in a more positive way. I wish they've at least given a hint that you don't have to become greedy to be a full grown dragon. Wishful thinking I guess.....)

[FrankT]

The only possible way for a dragon to physically age is for it to mentally age as well, and the only way for him to mentally age is to become corrupted with greed. So if Spike doesn't turn into a monster he's going to stay mentally and physically as a child FOREVER.

Which is a good thing, wouldn't you say?

[Ashton]

That is if it survives to see another episode >_>.

Great thing about a pheonix, you just cant kill it! lol (yes I know you mean "dissapears" but I had to make that joke)

The only possible way for a dragon to physically age is for it to mentally age as well, and the only way for him to mentally age is to become corrupted with greed. So if Spike doesn't turn into a monster he's going to stay mentally and physically as a child FOREVER.

How did this confirm it definitively? Spike's age is measured in single-digits right now, Dragons live to be many THOUSAND years old, Honestly I'm amazed he's a big as he is for his age! (and he can certainly mature and mentally age from living with twilight and learning about life, though we dont know if that will affect his size yet)

[tacobob]

Ash, let's go watch the butterfly migration!

I love the pic cause:

A. Before attending the "Great Butterfly Migration", the two made sure to put on those cute little explorer's hats. I'm sure they belong to Fluttershy.

B. Fluttershy is like a inch away from the butterflies, but she's using her binoculars. Guess you can't miss any details!

C. I wonder who is taking the picture?

[SirShadowdeath]

Remember kids, stealing is fine as long you raise the newborn as your own.

[weesh]

My first thought was horror that they didn't return the egg.

The second was rationalization, because they saved the egg by running away with it.

The third was disappointment that they didn't at least make an attempt to return the egg again.

Also, regarding the attitudes and temperament of the dragons:

I expect dragons to be somewhat regal and arrogant. Not the type of arrogance shown by the teens, but the arrogance shown by one who knows that he is superior and doesn't need to prove it to anyone. I liked Dragonshy, because the dragon did not care about the ponies at all until they made severe steps against him or his treasure. "huh, there is a roach in my cave. it will probably be gone by the time I wake up..." I don't need dragons to be good or bad. I need them to act like they have grown bored of their ridiculous power. <sigh>

The ending scene was nice. Not so good as the close of Kung Fu Panda 2...

when Po came to tell his dad that he had found his family

...but similarly satisfying. Well, until he named the Phoenix. <shudder>

[starswirlthebearded]

My first thought was horror that they didn't return the egg.

The second was rationalization, because they saved the egg by running away with it.

The third was disappointment that they didn't at least make an attempt to return the egg again.

Also, regarding the attitudes and temperament of the dragons:

I expect dragons to be somewhat regal and arrogant. Not the type of arrogance shown by the teens, but the arrogance shown by one who knows that he is superior and doesn't need to prove it to anyone. I liked Dragonshy, because the dragon did not care about the ponies at all until they made severe steps against him or his treasure. "huh, there is a roach in my cave. it will probably be gone by the time I wake up..." I don't need dragons to be good or bad. I need them to act like they have grown bored of their ridiculous power.

The ending scene was nice. Not so good as the close of Kung Fu Panda 2...

when Po came to tell his dad that he had found his family

...but similarly satisfying. Well, until he named the Phoenix.

I can think of two reasons why spike did not return the egg. The first is that he was carried by the teen dragons to the nest and was transported away by twilight thus his knowledge to get there was lacking. He could have asked twilight, but either she don't remember because she was intent on following or other vague plot enhancing reason. The second is that he did off screen and the Phoenix nest had moved due to the dragon attack.

I am in total agreement on everything else though.

[Rosewind]

The ending scene was nice. Not so good as the close of Kung Fu Panda 2...

Was Kung Fu Panda 2 any good?

Spike didn't return the egg because the parents were unavailable and he felt responsibility for taking the egg in the first place. There's also the thing about Twilight teleporting them away, so there was little time for him to react or decide what to do outside of protecting the egg at all costs.

[SilverSwirl]

Yes, that is a good thing.

[weesh]

Firstly, yes, Kung Fu Panda 2 was a wonderful story. And it was funny. But the themes of who is your family and finding inner peace in the face of terrible circumstances are why you should watch it.

And secondly, yes, I understand that they were running for their life, and TS teleporting them was absolutely the right thing to do. However, once they were safe, they STILL didn't even make an attempt at returning the egg. The adolescent dragons would not have had the patience to guard the nest waiting for them to return, and the adult Phoenix would not allow them to stick around. Yes it would have been dangerous to return the egg, but it was also the right thing to do.

[elsporko]

The nest was destroyed and the phoenix family had already left

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I can understand there would be any number of circumstances where returning the egg would be impossible. I also wish they'd have at least made some mention to how they weren't able to find the parents again or something, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.

I know returning an egg to a nest of real birds that have abandoned the nest would be next to impossible, but since phoenixes are pretty smart, I don't know if that would be the case here. Maybe phoenixes are known for disappearing to distant lands unknown for 500 years after they're done nesting? Thats something Twilight might have read in a book... just would have been nice to get even a one sentence nod to a reason in the dialogue.

As for dragons and aging. They're still not very clear on how Dragons operate, even after this episode and Secret of my Excess. I've been getting the impression that there is something magic about the way Dragons grow, since magic is what hatched Spike, and he likes to eat gems (which seem to have some kind of magic significance.) When Spike first hatched, he was a lot smaller than he is now, so it seems that dragons do have some sort of natural growth rate.

[weesh]

I can understand there would be any number of circumstances where returning the egg would be impossible. I also wish they'd have at least made some mention to how they weren't able to find the parents again or something, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Yeah, I guess that is fair.

[elsporko]

hi hi

I can understand there would be any number of circumstances where returning the egg would be impossible. I also wish they'd have at least made some mention to how they weren't able to find the parents again or something, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.

I know returning an egg to a nest of real birds that have abandoned the nest would be next to impossible, but since phoenixes are pretty smart, I don't know if that would be the case here. Maybe phoenixes are known for disappearing to distant lands unknown for 500 years after they're done nesting? Thats something Twilight might have read in a book... just would have been nice to get even a one sentence nod to a reason in the dialogue.

As for dragons and aging. They're still not very clear on how Dragons operate, even after this episode and Secret of my Excess. I've been getting the impression that there is something magic about the way Dragons grow, since magic is what hatched Spike, and he likes to eat gems (which seem to have some kind of magic significance.) When Spike first hatched, he was a lot smaller than he is now, so it seems that dragons do have some sort of natural growth rate.

I would guess that dragons grow to a certain point, at which they need to aquire treasure to continue grow. This would explain dragon's greed, they need to be greedy to grow stronger.

Its also possible Spike gained enough greed between being a baby and his current point to grow as much as he has

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I don't think we can assume that dragons need to be greedy or hoard treasure in order to grow. The dragon in Dragonshy was an intelligent, rational being, while greedy giant Spike couldn't even form a sentence.

Collecting treasure might not have been the cause of Spike's growth. After all, taking away his treasure wasn't how they fixed the problem. Getting him to refuse to take something reverted him to his original state (not his hatchling state either.) If its anything like people, greed is the cause, collecting things is the symptom. (and since they were trying to propose a moral, I'm going to assume there's some human connection.)

In studies with people, its been consistently found that after a certain point -when someone has enough to live comfortably without worrying about if they will have enough for day to day expenses- having additional money does not increase people's happiness at all. (This is counter-intuitive for a lot of people.)

What happens often times with people who hoard wealth is that having the wealth doesn't do anything for them, but the process of acquiring it does. Winning, succeeding and being victorious becomes the goal. Instead of feeling satiated, it only reinforces the need. Every time they have a big win, they have to aim for an even bigger goal the next time. (Its pretty close to how Zecora phrased Spike's growth turning him into a monster.)

From that perspective, the dragon habit of hoarding treasure and not sharing with other dragons might double as a method of preventing that kind of unnatural growth. They may provide for their young up until a certain point, but beyond that point they recognize that its unhealthy.

[DrMaxwell]

Perhaps greed is only a fast way of a dragon growing, and maybe they age normally, albeit slowly.(Twi had spike since she was a little filly, and he hasnt gotten much bigger than he was before.) Also, he might have wings that will grow later, since the teens were making fun of him for not growing his yet, it almost seems like a sign of maturity amongst the teenage dragons, like going through puberty.

[USAFBrony]

I honestly thought this was a good episode for spike. I also love the fact that they included Fluttershy's assertiveness in this episode, I hope this continues on to later episodes (=.

[EpicSentry]

For me there is a specific difference in the "feel" of episodes depending on whether they were made before or after the fandom became known to the creators of mlp. This episode really gave me the feel of a first season episode. It felt like the episode wasn't made to please bronies but to let the audience explore Equestria. I was enamored with every small glimpse of Equestrian terrain that was on screen and I personally found Spike to be a really relate-able character this episode. I think season 2 had a slow start after the Discord episodes but these last few episodes have been really hitting me visually and emotionally.

[Ashton]

I also love the fact that they included Fluttershy's assertiveness in this episode, I hope this continues on to later episodes (=.

This was indeed a nice bonus. It's the litle nods to continuity that really amaze me in an otherwise episodic show (Dash's slightly larger humility (and love od reading), Fluttershy's assertivness, AJ's stubborness, etc)

[Dessa]

For me there is a specific difference in the "feel" of episodes depending on whether they were made before or after the fandom became known to the creators of mlp. This episode really gave me the feel of a first season episode. It felt like the episode wasn't made to please bronies but to let the audience explore Equestria. I was enamored with every small glimpse of Equestrian terrain that was on screen and I personally found Spike to be a really relate-able character this episode. I think season 2 had a slow start after the Discord episodes but these last few episodes have been really hitting me visually and emotionally.

Yep! Say what you will about the quality of the episode itself, but it felt like season 1. Very few episodes this season, even some of my favorites, can claim that.

[Amarillys]

How did this confirm it definitively? Spike's age is measured in single-digits right now, Dragons live to be many THOUSAND years old, Honestly I'm amazed he's a big as he is for his age! (and he can certainly mature and mentally age from living with twilight and learning about life, though we dont know if that will affect his size yet)

LOL well maybe I was just exaggeration when I said "confirmed it". But it would still be nice if a nice grown up dragon appeared on the show.

[HopeFox]

One of the interesting things about this episode is that it showed dragons to be a lot more social than we had previously been led to believe. The red and green dragons in Season 1 were both solitary, but Garble's gang has all the hallmarks of being a well-established group of social peers. Perhaps that's the purpose of the migration - to foster a kind of dragon society, instead of allowing all dragons to be solitary creatures.

I think that might hold some of the key to questions about the draconic growth cycle. Maybe dragons who spend a lot of time with other dragons can grow slowly because they can't just hoard without restraint - there are other dragons with whom they must compete for hoarding material. This moderates their growth, allowing them to spend time as adolescents.

Am I the only one who thought that the "party dragon style" scene, and the big just afterwards when all of the dragons were lying on their backs chilling out, was actually kind of nice? Yes, Spike belongs with his real family in Ponyville, but it's understandable that Spike has instinctive social needs that his pony family can't quite provide (in the same way that, say, wolves and horses have different social structures with some similarities). Garble honestly seemed to care about helping Spike shape up into a "real dragon". It then turned bad because they weren't willing to accept his different views on things like smashing phoenix eggs, and then they were pretty quick to designate him as "outside the group" rather than "inside". Group psychology can be kind of scary. I actually think that Spike could benefit from having regular contact with another dragon as a "big brother" sort of arrangement - just one, so that gang dynamics don't come into it.