S02EP25-6 - "A Canterlot Wedding"

[flutterscotch]

I am one too, but if my sister sang a song like that about me I'd be kinda creeped out.

If my brother sang this song about me I'd know he was up to something.

[IceStorm]

Okay, now that I've spent the last I don't know four hours reading from page 10 to this page, I can actually comment on some things.

First of all, the Flutterdash ship. Personally, I can see both sides. Being an athlete myself, I know what it's like to have somewhat of an ego and an over competitiveness, but at the same time, most athletes get that way because of a fear of rejection. Athletes do everything they can to make themselves better, to push themselves so that they aren't cast aside. There have been several instances in softball and bowling alike that everything has come down to me in a success or failure situation where if I didn't do everything absolutely perfect, we'd fall under. When you are put in that position, and you fail it's the worse feeling that a player can have.

That being said, most athletes will show themselves being more confident than they actually are, case and point, Alex Smith during his first 7 years with San Francisco. He had no confidence in San Francisco at all because he knew he was the most hated person in the city, but every time he stepped in front of a camera, it was masked with the confidence of, "we'll just come back next week and we'll bring it home." Because athletes are expected that. I agree with Ashton, I see Rainbow being more looking for praise than anything else due to a lower-than-normal quotient of self-esteem.

__

On the topic of magic, I'm not really sure what to think. I would be under the assumption that the other ponies would be able so see the magic in the air without a problem. It's not that farfetched to say otherwise. I don't really think that they animators would have went through the trouble of animating the magic glows if the other ponies couldn't see them. From an artist's perspective, that's more work that has no real meaning behind it. I don't see that being the case.

That being said, it's obvious that it's not Coat color that determines the color of ones magic. I'm more agreeing with the theory that the color of a pony's magic comes from their mane. Twilight, purple mane, purple magic, Rarity, dark purple mane, dark purple magic, Princess Celestia, Her magic is Yellow and Green, two colors of which are present in her mane, Princess Luna, Light greyish blue, same color as her mane. Princess Cadence, the blue is the same color as the ribbons in her mane. So I support the magic color coming from their mane.

That being said, I've watched the season finally almost 5 times now. (Yes, I get obsessive with something as awesome as this)

Somethings that I've noticed.

It was asked earlier in the thread what Luna was doing outside of the barrier in the first part. Well, we don't know whether or not the unicorns/alicorns can actually "penetrate" the spell that shining armor has around the city. It's very possible that when Celestia sent the letter to twilight, she had to do so from outside Canterlot, which means that she would have to leave Canterlot to raise the sun, which is also probably when she sent the letters. That being said, the reason that Luna was outside of the barrier during the night was because she was actually raising the moon for the night.

As far as where she was during the day, she is the princess of the night, and she does stay up the entire night watching over Canterlot. IT would be very easy to assume that being constantly on her hooves, would be exhausting so she probably sleeps during the day. This is also why she wouldn't have been present during the actual wedding itself but is why she was able to attend the reception. I /am/ a bit surprised that she didn't since that Celestia was in trouble and come help her, but, :shrugs: not a huge deal.

Also, I was a single child, so I can't really relate to twilight in the beginning. I can understand why she's upset though, if I did have a sibling, and they were getting married, I would want to know about it before the event.

Chrysalis I would not mind seeing as a future character, but I do agree that in the wrong hands, she could easily be abused, but at the same time, she could also be a very interesting character in her own right.

All and all, This is my favorite Episode(s) of both seasons combined, and I'm probably going to end up watching it again tonight. Cadence is just that awesome.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

Sorry for spending so much time talking about the Rainbow Dash self esteem thing. (It is rather relevant to my interests though.) After having gone through a bunch of episodes and watching the way Rainbow Dash faces challenges, I have to conclude that she is a very confident pony, usually showing no hesitation and an eagerness to test herself. There is a lot of good evidence to suggest that participation in sports and competition boosts people's self esteem, even though statistically the vast majority of teams/players must necessarily lose before the end of the season.

• Keith J. Zullig, Rebecca J. White. Physical Activity, Life Satisfaction, and Self-Rated Health of Middle School Students. Applied Research in Quality of Life, 2010

• University Of Florida (1998, November 17). UF Researcher: Participating In Sports Gives Girls Strong Self-Images.

• The Relationship of Self-Esteem and Body Satisfaction to Exercise Activity for Male and Female Elementary School, High School, and University Students. Jackie Frost and Stuart J. McKelvie, Department of Psychology, Bishop's University.

On the matter of magic colors, they actually change between season 1 and season 2. In A Bird in the Hoof, Celestia's magic glow when she's holding her teacup is blue. And Rarity's magic is a darker blue color in Suited for Success than the light blue that she has during Sweet and Elite.

[elsporko]

There is definitely proof that sports help self esteem. The problem Rainbow Dash suffers from is that she is not comfortable with herself on various levels. She feels a need for constant reassurance to make up for this. This is why she is threatened by Mare Do Well. Mare Do Well is taking that from her or why failure scares her so much.

Being aware of this fact on some level, and being ashamed of it, Rainbow Dash over compensates by not only bragging but going over the top. A good example is her feeling the need to interrupt Applejack in Dragonshy just to point out she isn't scared of anything. Dash also fears that by partaking in something that doesn't fit into her idea of how an athlete should be acting it will make people not like her because she lacks the self esteem to stand up for herself. This is why she puts down reading as something for eggheads or spa treatments as being too girly. She is worried people will stop giving her the good praise for being an athlete she needs if she does something that doesn't make her look like a good athlete. one of the reasons she is able to enjoy reading is because her friends show that they still accept her despite the activity.

[Thoth]

I'll be perfectly honest when I say I didn't like B.B.B.F.F at all...the FIRST use of it.

The first time, I felt it was FAR TOO EARLY to be brining out an emotional song. I liked the emotional tone of it, and how it really tried to push their relationship across...but I have two problems with it:

1. It's just...too slow. Not enough force or energy behind it, like what 'This Day Aria' had. Just no emotion to its tone and pace...the first time, at least.

2. The song simply acts as one thing...I'll put it this way:

EXPOSITION, EXPOSITION! RUSH IT OUT, A-S, A-P!

Despite how much I giggled while typing that, it's true. The song is honestly just a reall elaborate piece of quick exposition so they can make Twilight and Shining Armor's relationship seem existent...

HOWEVER

The use of "B.B.B.F.F." at the end of Part 1 was VERY well-done. It was perfectly-timed, wonderfully-used, wonderfully-performed for the 10 seconds it had, and...man, it felt EMOTIONAL. I could just FEEL the loss and despair in Twilight's character at that moment! Why couldn't they have used the song ONLY there? It would've made me shed tears!

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I don't see a need for constant reassurance in Rainbow Dash. And my contempt for the writing in MMDW notwithstanding, she does admit that she was wrong by the end. Everyone worries every now and again, but that doesn't mean it has to define you as a person. She most certainly does not lack the self esteem to stand up for herself. She regularly gets in other people's faces while standing up for herself.

Regarding Dragonshy: as I said before, bragging and self aggrandizing is a sign of high self-esteem, not low self-esteem. I know people frequently say that bullies and show-offs are just trying to hide their inadequacies, but the science just doesn't support that assertion. It does make them feel better, but its the difference between good and better as opposed to bad and good. Furthermore, Rainbow Dash has a habit of correcting others by stating the unvarnished and immediate truth. "You're not a laughing stock" "She kinda is."

In Read it or Weep, she doesn't care what other ponies think about the topic of books at the beginning. She is totally confident in her own perception of reading as uncool. Most of the self-conflict in the episode comes from her being too stubborn to concede that either reading is cool or that she is uncool in her own mind. Her reaction to having her hooves touched in the spa seemed like something completely different. She wanted to try it out but couldn't bring herself to go through with it. That seems more like a phobia or some other irrational quirk than anything else.

Losing does sting no matter who you are, but that feeling never lasts. (The exception being if you were cheated, that can leave a mark) There's an annual occurrence at the place where I work that I think exemplifies this. Every year, at least once, we end up running a photo of some local athlete on the front of the sports section right after they've lost a state tournament. They're usually looking quite sad, maybe crying, and the other team is celebrating in the background. Right afterwards we always get some angry notes saying things like "how dare you print such a unflattering picture," but after a while, we start selling bunches of reprints to the family and we get comments like " That was the best photo of me anyone has ever taken." No matter how much it stings to lose, eventually people realize how awesome the moment was.

(Photograph by Ronnie Miller, ace photographer)

[shreddedpegasus]

Well, that was a great episode. Can't think of any other way to end the season, it had pretty much hit every nail on the head.

Just gonna keep this one brief I think and say I can't wait for season 3.

[Ashton]

I've given my view of Dash, others have given theirs, all I can say is this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlternativeCharacterInterpretation

[starswirlthebearded]

I've given my view of Dash, others have given theirs, all I can say is this:

http://tvtropes.org/...rInterpretation

Yup. Always happens. No 100% correct way to interpret a character unless the creator spells it out for you. And unfortunately with a myriad of writers handling the characterizations of these ponies, there is probably no correct way to perfectly characterize them. It is entirely possible that their motivations for writing Dash in a certain way varied completely. Which means, that both characterizations may be entirely correct.

For Ginger and her question of where it came from? Media. Media is always to blame. They created the fake idea of "false bravado." While every study has shown that it does not exist, media finds it more interesting to make it so that it does (the "oh I act confident but really have a fragile and easily tarnished self-image) to create a more vulnerable and thus relatable character (at least I think so, I have no evidence of this supposition). And honestly, I think MMDW was intended to reinforce that notion, but it was so horribly written whatever it was trying to get across fell very short in every way possible. However, the fact does remain that it does not exist. It only exists in the movies and TV.

I'm siding with Ginger Mint just for the fact that she made a HECK of a good argument. When you reference peer reviewed journals, you can almost instantly win me over. (I do so love a well reference argument) I actually always saw Dash as the confident one who is afraid to fail, because it would negatively impact her dream. However, I think she slowly gets over that with time. Now she is just straight up confident.

BTW! The fact that we can have such debates, is the reason why I love this show and this community. In the 4 months I have been here, I've seen more debates over character development and characterization (among other topics) than I have seen on an anime forum for a long running mystery series (Detective Conan) in 4 years.

[brianblackberry]

That being said, it's obvious that it's not Coat color that determines the color of ones magic. I'm more agreeing with the theory that the color of a pony's magic comes from their mane. Twilight, purple mane, purple magic, Rarity, dark purple mane, dark purple magic, Princess Celestia, Her magic is Yellow and Green, two colors of which are present in her mane, Princess Luna, Light greyish blue, same color as her mane. Princess Cadence, the blue is the same color as the ribbons in her mane. So I support the magic color coming from their mane.

Actually Rarity's magic color is blue:

Fancy Pants has a blue mane, but his magic's color is yellow:

I wondered if it matched eye color at first. After all Twilight has purple colored magic and Purple eyes, Rarity has blue colored magic and blue eyes. However that hypothesis was debunked by Celestia's yellow magic not matching her lavender eyes, (and Fancy above, who also has blue eyes).

Then I wondered if it matched their cutie mark in color, at least the primary color of their cutie mark. This worked for Twilight's magenta six pointed star, Rarity's blue diamonds, Celestia's yellow sun, Cadance's blue jewel heart, and even Fancy Pants mainly golden-yellow crowns. However Fleur's magic color possibly suggested otherwise:

Her magic appears pinkish, much like the light pink of her mane, while her cutie mark is lavender and yellow. So at first I though the idea of making cutie marks was out the window as well, until I took a closer look. I ran her mane colors through Photoshop and got the hex vales #fcdefc Classic Rose and #fcefff White Pointer, these are actually much less saturated shades of lavender-purple, not shades of red (such as pink is). I did the same with her magic, which ranged from #ecd2f9 to #f6d8fe all which were very light desaturated shades of again, lavender-purple. So her magic is lavender based, and not pink, which does match well with the primary Fleur of her cutie mark.

I though "ah hah, its the cutie mark!"

Then I looked for more magic, starting with Trixie:

Her magic matches her eyes, but unfortunately doesn't work with the color scheme of her cutie mark which are all various shades of blue:

So that hypothesis sadly is debunked as well.

So my conclusion is usually the magic matches the primary color of the unicorn/alicorn's cutie mark or a shade there of, but not always. It is also possible that it could instead match the eyes, but this appears to be less common. So it is best to say if you need a magic color for your unicorn go with either a variation of the primary cutie mark color, or the eyes, but there is no hard and fast rule at all; really it is what color works best with the rest of the character's color palette.

Anyway, at least this exercise gave me something to think about for the color of the magic of my characters or any that I create in the future.

[Bramble Rose]

For Ginger and her question of where it came from? Media. Media is always to blame. They created the fake idea of "false bravado." While every study has shown that it does not exist,

Ahem. Horse Apples and Ponyfeathers. Having been the *possessor* of false bravado at PLENTY of times during my life, I can confidently state that it does exist. Knowing several individuals whom possess such false bravado, I can confidently state that I am not the only case.Exactly what studies are you referencing?

You asked me to take a look, so I did. I only found one instance where she made a worried expression after being challenged, and numerous instances where she was challenged and was entirely confident, among other things.

Exceptional work there, Ginger! Sadly, I don't have the time to do quite the same just at the moment, so I can't rebut.

I repeat, incidentally, that comparing Rainbow Dash with athletes is invalid. Rainbow Dash is not an athlete. She is a weather technician. She *dreams* of being an athlete. She's one of those folks who works in the factory, watches the game at home, then heads out to play with their buddies in the empty field, and whichever team she's on always wins, and she's always dreamed of trying for the big leagues.

[starswirlthebearded]

Ahem. Horse Apples and Ponyfeathers. Having been the *possessor* of false bravado at PLENTY of times during my life, I can confidently state that it does exist. Knowing several individuals whom possess such false bravado, I can confidently state that I am not the only case.Exactly what studies are you referencing?

I repeat, incidentally, that comparing Rainbow Dash with athletes is invalid. Rainbow Dash is not an athlete. She is a weather technician. She *dreams* of being an athlete. She's one of those folks who works in the factory, watches the game at home, then heads out to play with their buddies in the empty field, and whichever team she's on always wins, and she's always dreamed of trying for the big leagues.

I have read several while I was studying psych, but that was long ago and probably couldn't find them if I tried.

If I recall correctly, false bravado is just bravado that can't be backed up when challenged. The confidence and courage is still there though. And when it is knocked down, that confidence tends to return unchanged. This suggests that there is nothing false about it, but rather lends to it being unjustifiable. However if a person is unjustifiably confident or brave, does that make those qualities fake?

I'm working off memory, so I'll search and see what I come up with as time permits. If you wish to do the research for me it would be appreciated. I could be misremembering or I could have misunderstood in the first place.

[elsporko]

I agree that we probably aren't going to make much progress convincing each other. It all comes down to interpretation.

I do find the idea that people can't act in a certain way to cover up insecurities pretty strange. Working with at risk teens its pretty rare for any of them to act in a way that isn't somehow protecting themselves. Everybody throws up defense mechanisms or shields, some more then others. In Dash's case she needs outside reassurance that she is good, which drives her to cover up weaknesses and feel compelled to always be on top. Hurricane Fluttershy demonstrates her getting over some of these issues, being content with simply doing the job and acting reasonably rather then attacking those who she feels aren't doing enough.

[Rosewind]

That's a crazy awesome post, Brian! I was recently re-watching Baby Cakes and found Pumpkin's magic aura to be aquamarine -- close to her eye color, but not quite.

My theory is that the magic aura is set to aesthetically match the caster, and since the eye color is meant to contrast with the rest of the colors of the character, we see more magic aura coloration that matches eye color/cutie marks -- but it's not set in stone and truly varies by character.

Also Ginger: I really dislike how MMDW was written as well.

[brianblackberry]

That's a crazy awesome post, Brian! I was recently re-watching Baby Cakes and found Pumpkin's magic aura to be aquamarine -- close to her eye color, but not quite.

My theory is that the magic aura is set to aesthetically match the caster, and since the eye color is meant to contrast with the rest of the colors of the character, we see more magic aura coloration that matches eye color/cutie marks -- but it's not set in stone and truly varies by character.

Eye color usually matches with one of the character's cutie mark colors, (Rarity with blue eyes, Applejack with green eyes, Pinkie with blue eyes, Fluttershy with aquamarine eyes). However this too turned out not to be a hard and fast rule. As with Trixie shown before, her eyes do not match her cutie mark color scheme at all. This also true with Dash, her magenta eyes do not match with her cutie mark.

I also thought about eye color contrasting with the color scheme of the rest of the character, and thought that was also always true. However, with many of my hypotheses on colors for FiM, there is exceptions that debunk them.

As we can see with Twilight and Amethyst Star (Sparkler), the eyes do not contrast with the overall color scheme by are a related shade.

Lotus and Aloe are great for this example, because they demonstrate both concepts. Lotus' eyes are a similar color to her coat, while Aloe's (the same color) contrast with her coat. As with magic, eye color all comes down to using colors that match well with the rest of the character's color palette, whether its a similar shade, an analogic color, a tetrad color, or a complementary (opposite on the color wheel) color.

In any of the cases they designers did a great job, the color pallets of the ponies inspire me.

[OccupyEquestria]

I have read several while I was studying psych, but that was long ago and probably couldn't find them if I tried.

If I recall correctly, false bravado is just bravado that can't be backed up when challenged. The confidence and courage is still there though. And when it is knocked down, that confidence tends to return unchanged. This suggests that there is nothing false about it, but rather lends to it being unjustifiable. However if a person is unjustifiably confident or brave, does that make those qualities fake?

I'm working off memory, so I'll search and see what I come up with as time permits. If you wish to do the research for me it would be appreciated. I could be misremembering or I could have misunderstood in the first place.

I tend to liken false bravado to the false happiness that I've experienced working with depressed teens. Some teens have a habit of manifesting their depression in extreme happiness with very bubbly, smiling, and extraverted personalities. Such actions make them appear to be the center of attention and living a happy life when in fact they feel none of their "friends" cares about them and that they are unhappy both with their situation and their need to appear happy for every else. While I cannot speak from knowing anyone personally who manifests this in an athletic composure, I am sure that there are those who do.

One of my problems with psych students is that they land on these studies and think they lead towards fact and rely too much on generalization without looking at context or specification. There are always outliers and falling into the trap "because these studies say this leads to..." Such actions often end up with someone arriving at an erroneous assumptions.

While I am certainly no fan of psychology as a "science" when it does not take a biological look, if I have time I shall find some journal articles which better get across the idea that correleation and causation in these sorts of insecurity studies is not so black and white as Ginger has been making it.

[starswirlthebearded]

While I am certainly no fan of psychology as a "science" when it does not take a biological look, if I have time I shall find some journal articles which better get across the idea that correleation and causation in these sorts of insecurity studies is not so black and white as Ginger has been making it.

The problem is that generalizations will be all we ever have. The human brain is too complex to make any theory that will suit a general population in the traditional sense of scientific theory. Nothing is ever black and white either, but I like to think the line is clearly visible (which side seems to be most favorable). Naturally this isn't always the case, but sometimes it is.

I do however look forward to those articles.

[elsporko]

Its also worth noting that those articles appeared to be saying that playing sports tend to lead to more confidence. I don't think anybody is arguing against this. Competing even helps Rainbow Dash's confidence. Rainbow Dash's problem is that she has difficulty with internal self esteem. She feels good when people reward her in a positive manner. When she isn't being rewarded she doesn't feel good, they don't need to be putting her down just not giving praise.

Not wanting to admit that she has self esteem issues Rainbow Dash talks herself up alot. If others think she is confident then she must be confident.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I tell ya, I honestly thought it was checkmate for me when Bramble said to check her expressions. I was thinking about how I was going to write my concession post when I started looking though the episodes. (Also: I think the idea that Rainbow Dash doesn't feel good when she isn't being rewarded cannot reconcile with the fact that she regularly seeks solitude and to be left alone.)

I also remembered this little video that I think relates to the conversation. There's good reason to believe that self-mastery is something of a root motivation in people that doesn't require external justification.

On the topic of magic color, it gets even stranger. Purple magic but cyan cutie marks.

Behold, Celestia's changing magic glow color! Invisible, pink and blue!

One last thing: People were asking when other people first realized that Mi Amore Cadenza was evil. I figured it out during "This Day Aria," when she said "I could care less about the dress," instead of "I couldn't care less about the dress." Pure evil right there.

[Amarillys]

I thought the episode was awesome! It really reminded me of a Disney movie.

That being said I think it WOULD have been better if this WAS a movie. The ending seemed a little too "convenient" and they could have easily avoided that if they could have made it a bit longer.

(Also, I love Changeling Queen's character design. She looks really cool.)

[Ashton]

---tons and tons of stuff---

I think you clicked the wrong Avi, Brian, your acting much more like Twilight right now lol

IIRC there was an official explanation of where the magic's glow came from, because at one point this was the argument that "Vinyl has blue eyes" because her magic was blue. Somone needs to spend a few days reaching back on ED lol

[starswirlthebearded]

I think you clicked the wrong Avi, Brian, your acting much more like Twilight right now lol

IIRC there was an official explanation of where the magic's glow came from, because at one point this was the argument that "Vinyl has blue eyes" because her magic was blue. Somone needs to spend a few days reaching back on ED lol

Ah but can it not be said his observances and analysis are relating to looks and appearances, which is a very rarity-esque thing to do. I think Brian choose his avatar wisely.

I just want to weigh in and say I recall there being discrepancies in magic color at the beginning of season 1. The initial was either eye or mane color (I can't remember at the moment). Then it switched to cutie mark color. However now it looks like they fluctuate between all three. I think it's an arbitrary decision based on the character and their overall design. The mane cast seem all to be cutie mark though (twilight, Celestia, rarity, Luna). Celestia is gold for her sun, twilight is purple for her main star, rarity is light blue for her diamond and Luna is dark blue/purple for the color around the moon (I assume that is supposed to be the night sky). The rest I'm not so sure.

[Ashton]

Ah but can it not be said his observances and analysis are relating to looks and appearances, which is a very rarity-esque thing to do. I think Brian choose his avatar wisely.

heh, inside joke, for verious reasons Brian will always be a different pony than rarity to me

[starswirlthebearded]

heh, inside joke, for verious reasons Brian will always be a different pony than rarity to me

I figured, I was just being a bit facetious.

[Rosewind]

hi hi

Behold, Celestia's changing magic glow color! Invisible, pink and blue!

I was thinking, Ginger -- what if Celestia's magic aura varied with time of day? Invisible might mean it's night time, it's pink in the middle picture to match the sunset, and the blue might mean that it was midday. It would make sense since her power to raise the sun and rule over the day probably varies throughout the day.