S02EP15 - "The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000"

[brianblackberry]

At what point, though, did the Dr. Whooves reference reach the artists? It's been a joke in the fandom for a while, but for how long has it been a joke to the animators? That was my point.

I am not sure if some animator originally made him that way on purpose, but they have been at least aware since last summer; and it could see one of the animators just went with the whole "make him like even more Tennant" then before. Of course we are all just speculating and like you said, should just enjoy the people on the show care that much about the fandom.

[Hippo]

thats a fine link there, im surprised I missed it when it evidentially went viral. And that "derpy's an exception" was almost too obvious for its own good. hmm....

Anyways, when talking about outside influence on the show, I feel that more than anything, like probably at least 95%, comes from inspirations from other features like musicals and old classic films. Quite honestly, if you were to reincarnate already used comedy routines, those are where the influences ought to come from, IMO. I imagine it was one of Faust's and Thiessen's strategies for keeping this show not-just-a-girl show and more like a cartoon everyone can watch.

And more about Applejack not having to learn anything. I still feel like she knew what she was doing. AJ never agreed to Flim and Flam's deal, Granny did. AJ was completely aware of the insanity that was about to happen before the competition and was nervous about even talking with them. What I loved most about AJ here though, is her stand-upedness. She is the most stand-up pony ever! She is honest and looks at the harshest situations in the face. When the temptation to cheat was at it's peak, AJ refused to give in. Her perspective on the situation was very mature, as she understood that worrying about how the Flim Flam bro's are doing will never help them win. When they 'lost' the competition, she recognized that a deal's a deal, and even told the BGPs to accept the differences. Quite honestly, even if the Apples were run out of Ponyville, I guarantee it wouldn't have taken them long to build a new establishment in another town.

Twilight Sparkle: "I'm proud of you Applejack. Integrity like that, will always be rewarded."

[Acynder]

Now AJ shall be banished to next season for the letter.

[Scootalooo]

I really liked this episode, even if the brothers were 100% annoying. I loved Applejack's letter to the princess XD Made me laugh pretty hard.

[ChancellorPuddinghead]

-Fluttershy's coyness

-AJ Letter to Celestia

-Song

-Dr. Whooves

-Pinkie Pie - STILL EARLIER THAN FIRST MY BROTHERS!!!!!!!!!!! TROLOLOLOLOL :D

Overall just a re-telling of The Legend of John Henry Which I'm sure you already covered in topic. Ponyville seems to have a giant 'bumpkin' target painted on it for carpetbaggers huh?

[ZeroHero]

Applejack was always best pony!

I believe that letter makes her a God now, does it not? http://www.canterlot.com/topic/5715-celestiagod-canon/

Anyway, mixed feelings about the letter, personally. On one hand, it was hilarious but on the other, this is only like the 3-5th episode (depending on your opinion of a few eps, I suppose) and it's explicitly a repeat of her first lesson? That makes me feel the writers really don't want to develop AJ and this is just their way of showing it. Although I've also thought of the possibility that it was just a clever play on her element, lol.

Wait, why am I overthinking a little girl's cartoon again?

[starswirlthebearded]

I believe that letter makes her a God now, does it not? http://www.canterlot...estiagod-canon/

Anyway, mixed feelings about the letter, personally. On one hand, it was hilarious but on the other, this is only like the 3-5th episode (depending on your opinion of a few eps, I suppose) and it's explicitly a repeat of her first lesson? That makes me feel the writers really don't want to develop AJ and this is just their way of showing it. Although I've also thought of the possibility that it was just a clever play on her element, lol.

Wait, why am I overthinking a little girl's cartoon again?

The lesson was about integrity, which she already had. The other thing was just a call back. Really as others have said, it was more of a lesson for Ponyville rather than the mane 6.

[weesh]

The lesson was about integrity, which she already had....

The lesson should have been about pride.

"Dear Princess Celestia,

Today we had a close call and only just avoided disaster. Thankfully, we did not loose our farm, and I learned a valuable lesson. It is important to have pride in your work, but so much pride that you are blinded by anger when a few strangers insult the work that your friends have loved for years. If we could have taken a step back, we would have been confidant in our own value, which is affirmed by those we cared about, and we would not have been goaded into a risky contest.

Your faithful subject,

Applejack"

[HopeFox]

I kinda understand where ponies who say that AJ was irresponsible, but vaguely disagree. Apple Bloom was the biggest yes-man. Granny Smith (why do I keep forgetting to capitalize these ponies last names?) was a Neigh-sayer, until Flim (or is it Flam?) called her a Scootaloo. I was expecting them to cut to the CMC at that point. AJ was the only one who was even vaguely sceptical the entire time.

I agree - Applejack was pretty responsible throughout the whole thing. Apple Bloom should never be allowed to talk when there's money involved, but it was Granny Smith's pride that really got the family into trouble. Incidentally, this episode does seem to confirm that, while Applejack makes a lot of decisions involving the farm, it actually belongs to Granny Smith.

Another thing I really liked about this episode was that the machine itself wasn't the problem. The machine was working fine and not doing anything terrible, it was its operators who were shady and slipshod. Making the machine evil or prone to breakdown is the usual way this plot is handled in cartoons. Also, the "secret ingredient" that made the Apple family's cider better wasn't something intangible like love, or friendship, or family tradition, or even Earth pony magic (all of which would have been entirely reasonable in this setting), it was: to make good cider, don't make bad cider. Made it much more applicable to the real world.

[ChancellorPuddinghead]

Good point about pride - Granny - Celestia love her heart - REALLY got trolled by Flim and Flam.

[Whitehawke]

Turns out Dr.Whooves was an intentional reference.

It was suspected before, but this confirms it.

[Solaria]

As Lord and Fawkes (of course) mentioned, for swindlers and businessmen the Flim Flam brothers were woefully feeble in their confidence and perception of the situation. It didn't matter that the cider they produced for the competition was terrible, quality wasn't mentioned in the contest stipulations. They had won the farm, they merely had to restore the original settings and make cider for everypony. Of course there was never much of a true comparison between the two ciders as far as taste went, so I assume if they'd gone that route the "love and care" Apple family cider would have still won out. That was just a glaring flaw in the brothers to me.

[Dessa]

Now, if this was the real world, the brothers would rent the land to the Apple family, and make them work and produce the cider, while the Flimflams would take 70% of the profits. And if they AJs didn't like it, the brothers would just hire somepony more desperate than them.

I much prefer the way they do things in Equestria.

[starswirlthebearded]

Now, if this was the real world, the brothers would rent the land to the Apple family, and make them work and produce the cider, while the Flimflams would take 70% of the profits. And if they AJs didn't like it, the brothers would just hire somepony more desperate than them.

I much prefer the way they do things in Equestria.

In the real world a lot of different things would have happened that didn't for a bet of that magnitude. Verbal agreements don't fly with land as lawyers are needed to do the deeds and working permits. ..(I could be mistaken, but that is my understanding of land changing hands especially for farming and construction. )

[accountdeleted]

Snip!

I was thinking twilight would argue what they made was not cider, just juiced apple trees.

Snip!

This... would make boat-loads of sense. This moral has not been covered before (to my knowledge) and makes sense coming from AJ (or RD for that matter).

[HopeFox]

As Lord and Fawkes (of course) mentioned, for swindlers and businessmen the Flim Flam brothers were woefully feeble in their confidence and perception of the situation. It didn't matter that the cider they produced for the competition was terrible, quality wasn't mentioned in the contest stipulations. They had won the farm, they merely had to restore the original settings and make cider for everypony. Of course there was never much of a true comparison between the two ciders as far as taste went, so I assume if they'd gone that route the "love and care" Apple family cider would have still won out. That was just a glaring flaw in the brothers to me.

It's true that they could have just started selling the good cider, but I think the fact that they produced the bad cider at all was a mark against them in the townsponies' eyes - what's to stop them from dropping the quality again if it's convenient? Meanwhile, they know the Apples will never compromise on quality, and their shameful gloating over driving the Apples out of business didn't sit well with the townsponies either. They could have stayed in town, but they would have been really unpopular, and let's face it, Rainbow Dash would have dropped an Atomic Rainnuke on the SSCS6k sooner or later.

They were overconfident, yes, and misjudged some of the social dynamics of Ponyville. They did an excellent job of manipulating ponies, though, especially Granny Smith. Now, if they had been more patient and diligent, they could have established themselves as legitimate competitors to the Apple family and made a modest but steady income supplying the excess demand in the market. But that would be a "get rich slowly" scheme, which isn't really their style. The longer they stayed in Ponyville, the more likely they'd be to pull some other kind of trick or scheme to capture the market, other than "make lots of good cider".

On further reflection, I do have to make one strike against Applejack's behaviour - when the brothers showed up on the second day, Applejack demanded that they couldn't sell their cider in Ponyville because it was made from Apple family apples. That was an attempt to enforce a monopoly on the local cider market, using their dominance of the apple market to refuse supply to competitors. That's kind of unethical, and probably illegal in some parts of the modern world. I can see why she did it, though - she was scared of what the brothers were going to do to them and to Ponyville, and rightly so.

[TheUnknownGurl]

i kinda liked this ep not that much happened really, but it was all in good fun, i LOVED applejack's letter XDD y can't they show us tia's reaction to it??

they didn't go to many places this ep, but that's okay with me. i liked the whole 'honorarey family members' thing it was just so great!!! x33

looking forward to the next ep, rainbow is interested in books??!!! :OOOO WAATTT??

^ love this reaction face, why isn't it a meme yet?

[Kirby Krackle]

This episode. Oh God. Best in season.

[HopeFox]

It's also just occurred to me that, arguably, making a few assumptions and guesses... the Flimflam Brothers are the worst villians we've ever seen on the show.

Nightmare Moon was either possessed or insane, and thus not really in control of her actions. Discord is horrendously evil, but it may be literally impossible for him to be anything other than what he is - Chaos and disharmony incarnate. The Windigo probably can't change either, and might not even be sentient. Trixie and Gilda may have substantial reasons in their backstory for why they are the way they are, and they didn't do anything particularly terrible anyway. Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are children, and will grow up one day. The Diamond Dogs really seem too stupid to be properly evil, and probably have difficulty forming empathy for ponies.

Whereas Flim and Flam knew exactly what they were doing when they offered the Apples an extortionate deal, and then goaded Granny Smith into a foolish wager when their deal was rejected. Sure, they didn't kill anypony, but they planned to drive a family out of business and off their land, in the name of making some quick bits. They can't even claim that financial hardship is forcing them to do it, because they could make plenty of money by working legitimately with the Apples, either as contractors or as honest competitors. They attempted to destroy a family's livelihood in the name of greed, and they didn't show the slightest bit of remorse in doing so. That's pretty dreadful.

[Solaria]

It's also just occurred to me that, arguably, making a few assumptions and guesses... the Flimflam Brothers are the worst villians we've ever seen on the show.

Nightmare Moon was either possessed or insane, and thus not really in control of her actions. Discord is horrendously evil, but it may be literally impossible for him to be anything other than what he is - Chaos and disharmony incarnate. The Windigo probably can't change either, and might not even be sentient. Trixie and Gilda may have substantial reasons in their backstory for why they are the way they are, and they didn't do anything particularly terrible anyway. Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are children, and will grow up one day. The Diamond Dogs really seem too stupid to be properly evil, and probably have difficulty forming empathy for ponies.

Whereas Flim and Flam knew exactly what they were doing when they offered the Apples an extortionate deal, and then goaded Granny Smith into a foolish wager when their deal was rejected. Sure, they didn't kill anypony, but they planned to drive a family out of business and off their land, in the name of making some quick bits. They can't even claim that financial hardship is forcing them to do it, because they could make plenty of money by working legitimately with the Apples, either as contractors or as honest competitors. They attempted to destroy a family's livelihood in the name of greed, and they didn't show the slightest bit of remorse in doing so. That's pretty dreadful.

They sang a song, so that made it okay As to my previous observation, after seeing how easily the Flim Flam brothers manipulated Ponyville citizens the first time I'm sure that they could have fabricated another lie as to why their competition cider was less than stellar. Without applying real-world considerations to this episode, I liked it very much

[Snowshoe]

Whereas Flim and Flam knew exactly what they were doing when they offered the Apples an extortionate deal, and then goaded Granny Smith into a foolish wager when their deal was rejected. Sure, they didn't kill anypony, but they planned to drive a family out of business and off their land, in the name of making some quick bits. They can't even claim that financial hardship is forcing them to do it, because they could make plenty of money by working legitimately with the Apples, either as contractors or as honest competitors. They attempted to destroy a family's livelihood in the name of greed, and they didn't show the slightest bit of remorse in doing so. That's pretty dreadful.

And you know, that's what makes me like Flim and Flam. I really, really love villains like this, the conniving ones who try and get their way by manipulation and words, not brute force and terror (like NMM). It's a similar reason as to why I like Iago from Othello, to me they fit squarely in TVtropes' Magnificent [Expletive for illigetimate child here, which I doubt is boardsafe] category.

[Davroth]

They are con artists called the Flim Flam brothers. It's nothing short of brilliance.

[Acynder]

[weesh]

And you know, that's what makes me like Flim and Flam. I really, really love villains like this, the conniving ones who try and get their way by manipulation and words, not brute force and terror (like NMM). It's a similar reason as to why I like Iago from Othello, to me they fit squarely in TVtropes' Magnificent [Expletive for illigetimate child here, which I doubt is boardsafe] category.

So true. They are colorful and dynamic characters (who unfortunately are very hard to differentiate from each other) who hide their evil quite well. Charisma as a weapon! I love to hate them.

[brianblackberry]

On further reflection, I do have to make one strike against Applejack's behaviour - when the brothers showed up on the second day, Applejack demanded that they couldn't sell their cider in Ponyville because it was made from Apple family apples. That was an attempt to enforce a monopoly on the local cider market, using their dominance of the apple market to refuse supply to competitors. That's kind of unethical, and probably illegal in some parts of the modern world. I can see why she did it, though - she was scared of what the brothers were going to do to them and to Ponyville, and rightly so.

I wouldn't have counted it against her really, after all there was no way she could "enforce" the idea that Sweet Apple made all the cider for Ponyville and I really doubt she would have used any strong-hoofed tactics either; she is just protective of the family business and name, so it wasn't really a threat per-se.

In fact watching AJ, I realized how much she matured when it came to doing things. She was the most cautious in the family when it came to dealing with the Flim Flam brothers; more importantly, she didn't even hesitate to accept help from the other mane six, a sharp contrast to her behavior in the Applebucking Season episode, showing she can now put aside her stubbornness when need be. The whole honesty part shown through also on her refusal to compromise her integrity even if it meant losing everything.