The Mysterious Mare Don't Well

[Rosewind]

This section of Canterlot has been a teensy dry lately, and I think we're overdue for a nice, friendly, rip-roaring debate. Here is my card on the table:

Love this episode or hate it, I want to understand why The Mysterious Mare Do Well got such a strong reaction. On the flip side, I'd love to hear from the supporters of this episode about why they found it appealing. Also, I'd like to hear what makes an episode a "good" episode, which can be a difficult thing to meter as different episodes tell different stories in different ways, and they have different writers. What could have Mare Do Well done differently to make it a more likable and entertaining episode to the fans?

I realize I might be over-generalizing here, and this thread itself will be a litmus test of whether I'm on target or not.

Me, personally? This was my least favorite episode from Season 2. I didn't enjoy how Rainbow Dash acted, or was treated by her friends. Everypony felt really out of character in the story, and I think a lot of that had to do because this episode was the debut of a new author, Merriwether Williams. I think she later found redemption in Hearth's Warming Eve.

Discuss!

[MyLittlePonyTales]

It was a good episode because it feature Rainbow Dash. And the Rainbow Dash fanclub, hosted by Scootaloo.

[Rosewind]

It was a good episode because it feature Rainbow Dash. And the Rainbow Dash fanclub, hosted by Scootaloo.

Touché, Tales!

[Lux]

I actually didn't see anything wrong with it.

I know some ponies were upset that Rd's friends had to trick her, but really RD isn't one to change drastically without a little nudge. I liked the superhero idea and how all the friends were doing their part.

[RarityDash]

On first watch I really liked it. It was exciting, and humorous enough, and its liberal use of superhero references and cliches rather appealed to me.

When I examined the episode a little closer the second time, after seeing what the fan consensus was, I found it didn't quite hold up to heavy scrutiny. There are just far too many flaws in the writing and execution to call it an exceptional episode.

I personally still don't hate it. I think it has a lot of good moments, and it's still kind of enjoyable on the pure fun level. In my book, it's just kind of subpar when compared to other, episodes.

[Davroth]

The Mane 6 sans RD try to teach RD a lesson. That's alright. But the lesson is that you shouldn't brag about the good you do, so how do they do that? By bragging constantly about how awesome they are. Think about that scene where they sit together and talk about Mare Do Well. They all compliment themselves on how awesome they are, Twilight on the number with the dam, Rarity on the costume, etc.

They are being grossly hypocritical about it, and it rubs me fundamentally the wrong way.

[MisterChippy]

I just kinda found the episode to be a bit uneven in almost every possible way. Firstly, RD is very vain, but not to the point of delibretly manufacturing 'disasters' in order to make herself look good. Also, the mane 6 are upset because she's letting her fame go to her head, but then they sabotage her fame in order to cut her down to size? That seems a bit OOC to me. Also, from a purely nit-picky perspective, Fluttershy couldn't fly herself out of a paper bag, let alone outfly Rainbow. The whole episode just seemed a little off to me.

That said, I love Rainbow Dash and any episode that features her, and I wouldn't necessarily say that Mare Do Well was a bad episode. Just a bit... off

[Ashton]

When I first saw this episode, I hated it with a passion, but then I realized it was important --- Dash had been accumulating a lot of hate from the fandom because she was so egotistical, so they had to have a Break the Haughty episode to tone her down, which has worked quite well (though when you start really analyzing it, the episode falls apart at the seems because RD is NOT really that kind of pony, she's hiding behind a mask of false bravado, and really it would have done much more severe damage to her than just make her "stop bragging" because of her fragile psyche) If we take it at face value, then it works, but it was written by somone who did NOT understand dash on any kind of deep level...

Secondly, this was a massive pot of anachronism stew, mixing all kinds of technology and laying the groundwork for all kinds of arguments.

Lastly, it's just too absurd, all these accidents happening so close together? it really breaks willing suspension of disbelief (the only way it could have been save is if there was a villian *causing* them --- but there wasnt, so it becomes too unlikely... especially since in every other episode ponyville has virtually no accidents/disasters (discounting the parasprites and ursa-minor/cerberus)

Over all, it points to a very incompetent writer who did NOT research the setting, did NOT research the characters, and did NOT research the plot. (Though I will agree he got better, this came close to being a 'jump the shark' episode!)

[SteelEagle]

It is my least favorite episode of the series because I believe the writing was weak and the plot lacked any interest for me. It was too predictable. But, at the same time, I didn't hate it. It was no worse than the best episode from almost any other kid's show, it just failed to meet FiM's high standards. The art design was great though.

[starswirlthebearded]

For a comedic version of my views on this episode, I direct you to the CR review of Mysterious Mare Do Well. Seriously, all my issues are pretty much stated by him, just better than I could. Also... CR does his research and brings to light things that I didn't know about either.

Warning: reference to Cupcakes, and video clip of Shed.MOV in the middle of the review (the most graphic scene no less). Also... Warning: Mild Language throughout. With a Louis CK clip right around the time of the Shed.MOV clip which has strong language.

[TotalEcplise]

Honestly i didn't find it a terrible or even bad.

Most ponies say the mane 6 were OOC, not really to me....they really are quite jerkish each in their own way, just enough to make them fun. Only difference here was they all did it in one episode instead of having their own little 20 min block to themselves. That scene were they bragged.....priceless i thought it was hilarious one of the most human scenes in the entire show.

Ponyville being a disaster area didn't affect me at all because a majority of the show is in or near ponyville its basically Equestria's equivalent of new york or japan. when something happens it most likely happens in ponyville. But everything that did happen are all plausible problems that couldve occured.

The entire episode was a mish mash....Im just weird i like it for the reason it gets hate.

[starswirlthebearded]

Honestly i didn't find it a terrible or even bad.

Most ponies say the mane 6 were OOC, not really to me....they really are quite jerkish each in their own way, just enough to make them fun. Only difference here was they all did it in one episode instead of having their own little 20 min block to themselves. That scene were they bragged.....priceless i thought it was hilarious one of the most human scenes in the entire show.

Ponyville being a disaster area didn't affect me at all because a majority of the show is in or near ponyville its basically Equestria's equivalent of new york or japan. when something happens it most likely happens in ponyville. But everything that did happen are all plausible problems that couldve occured.

The entire episode was a mish mash....Im just weird i like it for the reason it gets hate.

Yup, but that unfortunately cheapens the entire moral. They should have ran with that and ended with all of them being flawed (again, this was stated better in the review I linked). Instead it shows the other 5 as being good and villainizing poor Dashie. I don't even like Dash and I felt bad for her. That is probably why I didn't like it actually... It made me pity a character I generally don't like for all the wrong reasons....

[TotalEcplise]

Yup, but that unfortunately cheapens the entire moral. They should have ran with that and ended with all of them being flawed (again, this was stated better in the review I linked). Instead it shows the other 5 as being good and villainizing poor Dashie. I don't even like Dash and I felt bad for her. That is probably why I didn't like it actually... It made me pity a character I generally don't like for all the wrong reasons....

Fair points.

Oh and i watched that review and i do agree with him.

I took a personality test awhile back and the three ponies a was most like were Dash, Twilight, and Rarity. It was a little awkward to see Dash get dogged on by the writing (in fact it seem like my entire best pony list gets dogged on the most. i wonder whats up with that?). I honestly feel bad for the mane 6 only when certain things are revealed about em like pinkie little need to be validated (honestly thats the darkest and saddest thing in the entire show i can't even take Pinkie the same way anymore).

Me and a friend actually talked about how the town instantly turned into a death trap. My only opinion on that was "Since Twilight got there bad things kind of just happen, the town was probably happy that it wasn't some elderitch abomination this time."

I can't really say why i like the episode, i just do...

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I could not stand this episode. I literally found myself stopping the tape repeatedly and having to get up and leave the room to calm down before I could continue. The only real feelings I felt during the episode were cringe-worthy discomfort and sadness. I don't think I could ever watch it again except to pick apart one scene or another.

The single biggest problem with this episode in my opinion is the moral of the story and how the various ponies went about it. The moral wasn't just "not very strong," or "could have been better," it was downright reprehensible. Her friends saw that Rainbow Dash was in distress and what did they do? They turned it up to 11.

Everyone who ever had to deal with parents, teachers or some other example setting adult who thought they would "toughen them up," by constantly exposing their flaws and shortcomings, by constantly criticizing rather than offering advice, support and opportunities to grow and overcome those flaws; can easily see how Rainbow Dash's friends (so called) were little better than bullies in this episode.

Lets compare and contrast this episode to another episode for a moment, The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000. Both episodes have one of the mane six doing something that others don't like.

• In The Mysterious Mare Do Well, Rainbow Dash lets her ego go to her head. Even though it doesn't actually hurt her friends in any way, they don't like it.

• In The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000, Applejack isn't making enough cider for everyone to enjoy.

Both are reasonably harmless flaws that are a springboard for more intense conflict later, which will become clear when you look at how the different actors tried to deal with the flaws in each episode.

• In MMDW, the other five ponies tried to outperform and marginalize Rainbow Dash's contributions, excluding and replacing her through obsolescence.

• In MMDW, the other five ponies did not try to include Rainbow Dash in their heroics or provide any opportunities for her to work together rather than against them.

• In SSCS6k, the Flim Flam brothers try to outperform and marginalize Applejack's contributions, excluding her and replacing her through obsolescence.

• In SSCS6k, the other five ponies tried to work together with Applejack to improve her operation and make sure there was enough for everyone to enjoy.

Rainbow Dash's friends (so called) might as well have just tried teaching her a lesson with their fists. I've certainly seen people in my youth who tried to stand out in their own way get beaten up for being different. "Giving someone a taste of their own medicine," is a mean spirited and largely ineffective. In real life, all that does is give people reasons to retroactively justify their own misbehavior rather than correcting it.

"If words fail to convince the adversary, perhaps purity, humility and honesty will. The opponent must be 'weaned from error by patience and sympathy,' weaned, not crushed; converted not annihilated. You cannot inject new ideas into a man's head by chopping it off; neither will you infuse a new spirit into his heart by piercing it with a dagger."

- Louis Fischer

Or to paraphrase an ancient saying, "An eye for an eye leaves the world blind and toothless."

[TotalEcplise]

Such a true quote.

[Dessa]

It was a good episode because it feature Rainbow Dash. And the Rainbow Dash fanclub, hosted by Scootaloo.

Hosted by Scootaloo, who jumps ship and abandonds Rainbow Dash the moment a new hero shows up. Even Scootaloo was out of character.

[Hollow]

The Mane 6 sans RD try to teach RD a lesson. That's alright. But the lesson is that you shouldn't brag about the good you do, so how do they do that? By bragging constantly about how awesome they are. Think about that scene where they sit together and talk about Mare Do Well. They all compliment themselves on how awesome they are, Twilight on the number with the dam, Rarity on the costume, etc.

They are being grossly hypocritical about it, and it rubs me fundamentally the wrong way.

But this was just the group trying to get RD to realize how SHE acts.

It's like when a friend of yours is being annoying in some way, and instead of bluntly going "You're annoying" you replicate their actions to themselves, usually having THEM blurt out "that's annoying", to which you reply "well, it seems fine when you're doing it".

It's non-confrontational, and a way of putting the person in your shoes. Sometimes that's the best way to get them to understand your plight. This was just a cartoon, so the idea was full-blown all out craziness, but it still holds up well.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I'm sorry, but trying to teach someone a lesson is a placebo justification for the behavior. Its an excuse that I see used a lot, from the police in Jackson Mississippi circa 1961, to a fellow who took a gal's laptop out of her dorm room to teach her a lesson about leaving her door unlocked. It turns out that "trying to teach them a lesson," isn't a valid defense against criminal charges.

"Giving someone a taste of their own medicine," has another name, retribution. Its not friendly, its passive-aggressive (or aggressive in some cases), its hypocritical and far from being effective, in reality it usually just causes the other party to justify their behavior and reciprocate and worsen the matter, or withdraw, weakening any friendship you might have.

When you are turning the tables like that, you are not forcing anyone to step into your shoes, you are stepping into their shoes. And if in your shoes, the response to their actions is to return it in kind, there is absolutely no reason to believe that were the situation reversed, they would do anything differently. If you want someone to change, you need to show them how you feel, not how they're acting.

"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi

[Rosewind]

hi hi

I'm sorry, but trying to teach someone a lesson is a placebo justification for the behavior. Its an excuse that I see used a lot, from the police in Jackson Mississippi circa 1961, to a fellow who took a gal's laptop out of her dorm room to teach her a lesson about leaving her door unlocked. It turns out that "trying to teach them a lesson," isn't a valid defense against criminal charges.

"Giving someone a taste of their own medicine," has another name, retribution. Its not friendly, its passive-aggressive (or aggressive in some cases), its hypocritical and far from being effective, in reality it usually just causes the other party to justify their behavior and reciprocate and worsen the matter, or withdraw, weakening any friendship you might have.

When you are turning the tables like that, you are not forcing anyone to step into your shoes, you are stepping into their shoes. And if in your shoes, the response to their actions is to return it in kind, there is absolutely no reason to believe that were the situation reversed, they would do anything differently. If you want someone to change, you need to show them how you feel, not how they're acting.

"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi

This is one of the main reasons I really did not care for this episode. What could have changed to make the story -- and message -- better?

[SteelEagle]

A situation wherein Dash needed the help of her friends instead of doing it alone.

[starswirlthebearded]

This is one of the main reasons I really did not care for this episode. What could have changed to make the story -- and message -- better?

If they had to go for the retribution thing, I'd have liked to see the mane 6 all develop egos and show it could happen to anyone. This would have strengthened the moral and not demonized dash so much. They could have done a lot with that idea too. And it could have ended with a mutual apology and each of the mane 6 writing a letter to Celestia, as each would have learned something.

[Ginger Mint]

hi hi

I've got lots of ideas for how the message could have been changed for the better. I mean, having a little humility is a good thing, so its not like the episode wasn't at least aiming for the right target. I don't know how or where it happened, but somewhere along the line, someone missed the mark.

Possibility 1: The Mysterious Mare Do Well saves the day instead of Rainbow Dash then vanishes without anyone else seeing. One of the other five congratulates Rainbow Dash for saving the day and everyone cheers. Rainbow Dash is suddenly faced with the realization that she is receiving praise that she does not deserve. By the end of the episode, the town throws a "Rainbow Dash" celebration for her, but when she takes the stage, her sense of responsibility (which is what caused her to start saving the day in the first place) obliges her to turn down the reward and credit the MMDW.

Possibility 2: The MMDW pretends to need Rainbow Dash's help to save the day, then, during the "Twin Heroes of Ponyville Day" celebration, Rainbow Dash has to admit that there are others out there who deserve praise too and she shouldn't try to hog the spotlight herself.

Possibility 3: The MMDW puts herself in a position at some point where Rainbow Dash needs to save her. When Dash tries to gloat, the MMDW bows humbly and respectfully before disappearing, leaving Dash to contemplate the stark contrast in their behavior and perhaps showing a shred of remorse for her hostility.

Possibility 4: When Rainbow Dash was sulking and brooding during lunch, clearly not seeing the error of her ways as planned, rather than gloating and boasting themselves, that would have been a more appropriate time to reveal the truth and give the lecture they saved for the end of the show.

Possibility 5: When Rainbow Dash was sulking and brooding during lunch, clearly not seeing the error of her ways as planned, rather than gloating and boasting themselves, her friends could have said something like "We know you're doing your best, and we still think you're pretty amazing. You're a pony who wouldn't abandon her friends, not even to fulfill her own heart's desires." at which point she would say something like, "Yeah, I guess you're right. I just lost track of what was important."

Possibility 6: Rainbow Dash's five friends play on her ego by requesting her help for various situations where she has to performing tasks that average ordinary ponies do on a daily basis, like cooking, researching, caring for small animals, etc. By the end of the ordeal, she not only realizes that other ponies do amazing things that she's not very good at and gains a respect for the things she used to take for granted, but she also tempers her boasting because she learns that while she is still awesome, everypony is good at something and she shouldn't let it get to her head.

[Davroth]

But this was just the group trying to get RD to realize how SHE acts.

It's like when a friend of yours is being annoying in some way, and instead of bluntly going "You're annoying" you replicate their actions to themselves, usually having THEM blurt out "that's annoying", to which you reply "well, it seems fine when you're doing it".

It's non-confrontational, and a way of putting the person in your shoes. Sometimes that's the best way to get them to understand your plight. This was just a cartoon, so the idea was full-blown all out craziness, but it still holds up well.

I'm not a huge fan of that eye for an eye mentality. That's not healthy problem resolution, that's messing with people for the fun of it. And why the costumes, then? They obviously made a huge spectacle out of it for no reason.

I don't think this is something we should teach children, and it most certainly has nothing to do with love and tolerance. It makes me sick to be honest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikjD7lR-bY

Linked for truth. Let me quote the part I think is most important here.

I now realize that making a huge spectacle of yourself may negate any point you are trying to make about humility.

(Not to mention that what they are doing to Dash is downright sadistic the way they keep it up and systematically destroy her self confidence.)

[Rosewind]

hi hi

Possibility 1: The Mysterious Mare Do Well saves the day instead of Rainbow Dash then vanishes without anyone else seeing. One of the other five congratulates Rainbow Dash for saving the day and everyone cheers. Rainbow Dash is suddenly faced with the realization that she is receiving praise that she does not deserve. By the end of the episode, the town throws a "Rainbow Dash" celebration for her, but when she takes the stage, her sense of responsibility (which is what caused her to start saving the day in the first place) obliges her to turn down the reward and credit the MMDW.

Possibility 6: Rainbow Dash's five friends play on her ego by requesting her help for various situations where she has to performing tasks that average ordinary ponies do on a daily basis, like cooking, researching, caring for small animals, etc. By the end of the ordeal, she not only realizes that other ponies do amazing things that she's not very good at and gains a respect for the things she used to take for granted, but she also tempers her boasting because she learns that while she is still awesome, everypony is good at something and she shouldn't let it get to her head.

I like these two ideas, though Possibility 6 speaks the most "FiM" for flavor to me -- it's not what's expected at all, and there would be plenty of room to add entertaining moments that give contrast to RD positively instead of putting her down. How would MMDW fit in there? Would Rainbow be "stuck" doing the mundane tasks while MMDW does all the heroic stuff?

Let's get that into a letter to Hasbro and demand an episode remake. If they can backpeddle Derpy they can remake an episode...right?!

[Ashton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikjD7lR-bY

Nailed it! Love that take on the story, and something along those lines would REALLY have driven home the moral "we let ourselves get caught in in the very thing we were trying to stop"